Are there any reasons for exotic components and other magic’s? Posting it here because you GC people seams to have super ears, or is it just that the chips are so cheap that it is a lot of money over to spend on crazy magic’s?
Sure I could see use for ultra low noise OP amps, transistors, metal film resistors and so on.
But could anyone really hear a difference between descent caps like Panasonic compared to Black Gates? Silver cables compare to what I have in my junk box? Strange expensive power cables when the rest of the cabling in the house is the same? Are their any reason for me to start to spend my money on really expensive components?
I have seen boards, iron plates, sorbothane feet’s that should do wonders and so on, but I’ve never been able to hear any difference, neither have my wife and she do have golden ears. I can’t see any logics for spending money on it, is the difference measurable?
I few things I have thought of for those with these great ears!
Does gravity make a difference, I have been waiting to see speaker drivers that are compensated for gravity and having on upside and a down side?
Does the earth magnetical poles matter, does speakers play better west to east or north to south?
Does drivers magnetical field effect drivers that are close to them, would I gain on having them shielded from each other?
I’ve a mountain house on five thousand feet, how should I compensate the box size for the lower pressure, weight/volume factor?
/Magnus
Sure I could see use for ultra low noise OP amps, transistors, metal film resistors and so on.
But could anyone really hear a difference between descent caps like Panasonic compared to Black Gates? Silver cables compare to what I have in my junk box? Strange expensive power cables when the rest of the cabling in the house is the same? Are their any reason for me to start to spend my money on really expensive components?
I have seen boards, iron plates, sorbothane feet’s that should do wonders and so on, but I’ve never been able to hear any difference, neither have my wife and she do have golden ears. I can’t see any logics for spending money on it, is the difference measurable?
I few things I have thought of for those with these great ears!
Does gravity make a difference, I have been waiting to see speaker drivers that are compensated for gravity and having on upside and a down side?
Does the earth magnetical poles matter, does speakers play better west to east or north to south?
Does drivers magnetical field effect drivers that are close to them, would I gain on having them shielded from each other?
I’ve a mountain house on five thousand feet, how should I compensate the box size for the lower pressure, weight/volume factor?
/Magnus
"Are their any reason for me to start to spend my money on really expensive components?"
In short; NO
Thomas
P.S. Some active expensive components like the Burr-Brown OPA627 op-ampdo actually have much lower distortion than your avarage op-amp (how much of a difference it makes in "real life" depents very mcuh on how you use it). So for some components you do actually get something for your money and for a lot of other componenets you get absolutely NOTHING for your money. (beside a fancy name and a "story" about how this componenets have been bleased by a "holly cow" of some form).
In short; NO
Thomas
P.S. Some active expensive components like the Burr-Brown OPA627 op-ampdo actually have much lower distortion than your avarage op-amp (how much of a difference it makes in "real life" depents very mcuh on how you use it). So for some components you do actually get something for your money and for a lot of other componenets you get absolutely NOTHING for your money. (beside a fancy name and a "story" about how this componenets have been bleased by a "holly cow" of some form).
I hear a difference between caps
I just completed my 2nd GC, my first was too mashed in w/ grounding problems. I initially used cheapo "no-name" caps and the amp lacked definition and bass. I just finished installing more expensive but by no means "exotic" Nippon caps and voilla, all the detail and bass was there. My first GC has Sprague caps which I found in a surplus store and the are better sounding even with the ground hum.
I just can't rip the lungs out of my first GC...maybe I'll have them bronzed and put on the mantle.
I just completed my 2nd GC, my first was too mashed in w/ grounding problems. I initially used cheapo "no-name" caps and the amp lacked definition and bass. I just finished installing more expensive but by no means "exotic" Nippon caps and voilla, all the detail and bass was there. My first GC has Sprague caps which I found in a surplus store and the are better sounding even with the ground hum.
I just can't rip the lungs out of my first GC...maybe I'll have them bronzed and put on the mantle.
Great
Sure I use op's from both Burr-Brown and AD, because they don't give me some bad noise that tl084 and so do. The best OP I know is "OP Andersen" ice cold.
Well I will not spend my money on Riken, BG and so on. Just that I have read so many people here talking well about them, so I got querious. So I guess they are just for people that don't think for themselves and have to big pocket books.
I think it is wrong to earn more money if you don't deliver any value? That is not a reason enough for me.
Magnus
PS: Anyone who knows a good replacment for, MJE15035 and MJE15034?
Sure I use op's from both Burr-Brown and AD, because they don't give me some bad noise that tl084 and so do. The best OP I know is "OP Andersen" ice cold.
Well I will not spend my money on Riken, BG and so on. Just that I have read so many people here talking well about them, so I got querious. So I guess they are just for people that don't think for themselves and have to big pocket books.
I think it is wrong to earn more money if you don't deliver any value? That is not a reason enough for me.
Magnus
PS: Anyone who knows a good replacment for, MJE15035 and MJE15034?
Smile
Yes my username is well chosen and so are many of the components I use that I know anything about.
But I really don't see what reason you have to tell me that, how could you know about my knowledge Peter Daniel?
I have seen that you are something like the uber priest of exotic stuff, so maybe you could give me any good reasons to use exotic over priced components?
Don't come and smack me on my fingers, give me some mesurments instead and I might gain some knowledge?
Magnus
Yes my username is well chosen and so are many of the components I use that I know anything about.
But I really don't see what reason you have to tell me that, how could you know about my knowledge Peter Daniel?
I have seen that you are something like the uber priest of exotic stuff, so maybe you could give me any good reasons to use exotic over priced components?
Don't come and smack me on my fingers, give me some mesurments instead and I might gain some knowledge?
Magnus
Re: Smile
I am sure all those exotic components help out not only on sound quality but also on intelligence as well,
fat chance!
however, there is another perspective: we DIY audio because we like the experience of DIY. It would have been cheaper for me to just get a commercial amp and be done with it. so we do this for joy.
And if using exotic parts helps in the joy department, it is then consistent with the intent of DIY audio, whether it truly improves sound is irrelavent.
NoKnowledge said:
I am sure all those exotic components help out not only on sound quality but also on intelligence as well,
NoKnowledge said:
fat chance!
however, there is another perspective: we DIY audio because we like the experience of DIY. It would have been cheaper for me to just get a commercial amp and be done with it. so we do this for joy.
And if using exotic parts helps in the joy department, it is then consistent with the intent of DIY audio, whether it truly improves sound is irrelavent.
Thanks Sy!
Well I'm just interested in logics and facts, if I wanted fiction and religon I would go outside this forum.
So if I take some of my junk here, painting it in fancy colors, paking it in fancy boxes, make up some cool storries about how superior they are and over price them. Give some samples to a few selected people around here my junk could be the coolest things around. Because they wouldn't really listen, they would just try to hear improvments they think should be their?
Faith is a big thing!
Magnus
Well I'm just interested in logics and facts, if I wanted fiction and religon I would go outside this forum.
So if I take some of my junk here, painting it in fancy colors, paking it in fancy boxes, make up some cool storries about how superior they are and over price them. Give some samples to a few selected people around here my junk could be the coolest things around. Because they wouldn't really listen, they would just try to hear improvments they think should be their?
Faith is a big thing!
Magnus
Re: Smile
I don't know anything about it, but choosing your kind of name, makes me think why it was chosen. And seeing your remarks it only confirms my initial impression. Of course it doesn't mean at all, that in certain other areas your knowledge and experience is remarkable, but definitely you didn't give us a clue that it is the case with audio and exotic components. Starting a discussion like that also seems to be motivated by doubtfull causes. As it is a case with the other apostol of component is component, this is only done for entertainment purposes, and no knowledge will be gained, as the whole idea of accepting it, is negated right at the beginning. So lets the fun begin
NoKnowledge said:
I don't know anything about it, but choosing your kind of name, makes me think why it was chosen. And seeing your remarks it only confirms my initial impression. Of course it doesn't mean at all, that in certain other areas your knowledge and experience is remarkable, but definitely you didn't give us a clue that it is the case with audio and exotic components. Starting a discussion like that also seems to be motivated by doubtfull causes. As it is a case with the other apostol of component is component, this is only done for entertainment purposes, and no knowledge will be gained, as the whole idea of accepting it, is negated right at the beginning. So lets the fun begin
Hi
"And if using exotic parts helps in the joy department, it is then consistent with the intent of DIY audio, whether it truly improves sound is irrelavent."
I get they joy thing, and if money wasn't a matter I might play around with thoose cool things too, just for the fun.
Magnus
The one that could have fun with cheaper components
"And if using exotic parts helps in the joy department, it is then consistent with the intent of DIY audio, whether it truly improves sound is irrelavent."
I get they joy thing, and if money wasn't a matter I might play around with thoose cool things too, just for the fun.
Magnus
The one that could have fun with cheaper components
Re: Thanks Sy!
isn't that essentially the story behind some high-end audio, not just IC-based power amp?
You are talking about $4K equipment based on free samples and some RS resistors soldered P2P to the chip based on NSC application notes.
If you don't need faith to buy into such a large ticket item, I don't know whatelse you need faith for.
NoKnowledge said:
isn't that essentially the story behind some high-end audio, not just IC-based power amp?
You are talking about $4K equipment based on free samples and some RS resistors soldered P2P to the chip based on NSC application notes.
If you don't need faith to buy into such a large ticket item, I don't know whatelse you need faith for.
NoKnowledge,
There are a lot of members on this forum who know a lot of stuff and often give good advice for free. They have tried many parts & designs and I for one respect their opinions.
If you are so pesemistic, you may want to buy a lot of the 'exotic' parts and experiment for yourself.
In the end it is you who has to justify your additional expense for using higher priced parts.
If you are happy with the standard parts be happy and do not impose your negativity on others.
Cheers
KevinLee
There are a lot of members on this forum who know a lot of stuff and often give good advice for free. They have tried many parts & designs and I for one respect their opinions.
If you are so pesemistic, you may want to buy a lot of the 'exotic' parts and experiment for yourself.
In the end it is you who has to justify your additional expense for using higher priced parts.
If you are happy with the standard parts be happy and do not impose your negativity on others.
Cheers
KevinLee
Re: Smile
Not neccessarily. The more I play with exotic parts, the more feeling I have that this is not a ticket to good sound. What really matters is the way all components are "blended" together to achieve the goal, which of course, is a satisfying listening experience.
For anybody, who didn't spend enough time listening to and analysing different parts, the first excuse is the faith factor. Unfortunately, for those who are more involved into that, faith doesn't matter at all, and usually the experiments are conducted without any emotional bias and preferrably with unmarked parts.
NoKnowledge said:
Not neccessarily. The more I play with exotic parts, the more feeling I have that this is not a ticket to good sound. What really matters is the way all components are "blended" together to achieve the goal, which of course, is a satisfying listening experience.
For anybody, who didn't spend enough time listening to and analysing different parts, the first excuse is the faith factor. Unfortunately, for those who are more involved into that, faith doesn't matter at all, and usually the experiments are conducted without any emotional bias and preferrably with unmarked parts.
Ok
I started it because, I really want to know if their is any good reason for spending insane money on parts. I didn't try to upset or pick up a verbal fight in anyway. I'm sorry my bad!
"If you are so pesemistic you may want to buy a lot of the 'exotic' parts and experiment for yourself."
If I could afford it I would not have asked the question, I would just checked it out myself.
Sorry for impose my negativity, sorry for everything!
You guys are right I'm wrong
Magnus
I started it because, I really want to know if their is any good reason for spending insane money on parts. I didn't try to upset or pick up a verbal fight in anyway. I'm sorry my bad!
"If you are so pesemistic you may want to buy a lot of the 'exotic' parts and experiment for yourself."
If I could afford it I would not have asked the question, I would just checked it out myself.
Sorry for impose my negativity, sorry for everything!
You guys are right I'm wrong
Magnus
Ignoring for a moment (I'll get back to it) the gainclone as my first is still in progress, let's talk about exotic components:
Time after time when people have been seeking to increase the performance of a design, the have chosen to experiment with higher quality components.
The folks at HiFi World in the early to late 90's designed and produced a large number of amplifier kits, usually using decent but farfrom boutique componentry. The main business of these people was LISTENING TO audio equipment. The DIY side of HiFi World came from a desire to help folks build higher quality components on their own, rhater than buying off the shelf.
On at least 4 instances that I can recall, around 6 months after the release of the original "vanilla" project, an article was run in which possible upgrades were suggested. In these cases, various tweaky components (Tantalum Resistors, Paper in oil couplers, Black Gates, Schottky or FRED diodes etc) were installed and listened to until the tweaking was complete. The product was then reviewed by one of the reviewing team, against a vanilla version and any differences noted. The mods were then removed IN STAGES and listened to at each point in order to identify/isolate the particular sonic characteristics and contribution of certain components.
This is the most scientific approach to suggesting tweaks I have yet seen.
No doubt it will traumatise you (if your head is not already buried in the sand) to hear that Black Gates (especially in the cathode bypass cct of tube amps) were one of the most effective and high improvement upgrades that were made.
HiFi News recently ran an article looking that the effects of a range of black gates and also concluded that while not cheap they had a substantial positive impact on sound.
Now that that's out of the way...
...in simpler circuits, it is fairly generally accepted logic that (having a lower parts count) the individual components exert a greater effect than they would in a complex circuit. For this reason, you often find extremely high spec components (200USD silver foil coupling caps etc) put into these designs in oreder to maximise the available benefits.
The Gainclone is a simple circuit. It (in the version i will be building) has one chip and 2 resistors in the sonic circuit per channel and 4 capacitors in the psu circuit. (1000 uf per rail on the outboard power supply and 100uf per rail locally at the chip)
Having not had to spend 50 dollars a channel on heatsinking i can afford toputthat money into hiugher grade components.
One of the advantages of forums such as this one is that you can benefit from the experience and prior experimentation of others. if you chose to build the same circuit 19 times using different components each time, gradually increasing you knowledge of wht suits your taste, by all means do so. If you wish to listen and learn and make your own budgetary choices about what you can justify (for the record the 1000uf will be Nichicon Muse and only the 100uf local caps are black gate, we couldn't justify the cost at this stage) the again, do so.
Diving in with a troll along the lines of "this is all crap and you're just feeding the component manufacturers and never thinking for yourselves" does not encourage folks to listen to your findings, believe you to be unbiased or take your input seriously.
If you don't hear it, fine but put the pointy sticks away huh?
Drew
Time after time when people have been seeking to increase the performance of a design, the have chosen to experiment with higher quality components.
The folks at HiFi World in the early to late 90's designed and produced a large number of amplifier kits, usually using decent but farfrom boutique componentry. The main business of these people was LISTENING TO audio equipment. The DIY side of HiFi World came from a desire to help folks build higher quality components on their own, rhater than buying off the shelf.
On at least 4 instances that I can recall, around 6 months after the release of the original "vanilla" project, an article was run in which possible upgrades were suggested. In these cases, various tweaky components (Tantalum Resistors, Paper in oil couplers, Black Gates, Schottky or FRED diodes etc) were installed and listened to until the tweaking was complete. The product was then reviewed by one of the reviewing team, against a vanilla version and any differences noted. The mods were then removed IN STAGES and listened to at each point in order to identify/isolate the particular sonic characteristics and contribution of certain components.
This is the most scientific approach to suggesting tweaks I have yet seen.
No doubt it will traumatise you (if your head is not already buried in the sand) to hear that Black Gates (especially in the cathode bypass cct of tube amps) were one of the most effective and high improvement upgrades that were made.
HiFi News recently ran an article looking that the effects of a range of black gates and also concluded that while not cheap they had a substantial positive impact on sound.
Now that that's out of the way...
...in simpler circuits, it is fairly generally accepted logic that (having a lower parts count) the individual components exert a greater effect than they would in a complex circuit. For this reason, you often find extremely high spec components (200USD silver foil coupling caps etc) put into these designs in oreder to maximise the available benefits.
The Gainclone is a simple circuit. It (in the version i will be building) has one chip and 2 resistors in the sonic circuit per channel and 4 capacitors in the psu circuit. (1000 uf per rail on the outboard power supply and 100uf per rail locally at the chip)
Having not had to spend 50 dollars a channel on heatsinking i can afford toputthat money into hiugher grade components.
One of the advantages of forums such as this one is that you can benefit from the experience and prior experimentation of others. if you chose to build the same circuit 19 times using different components each time, gradually increasing you knowledge of wht suits your taste, by all means do so. If you wish to listen and learn and make your own budgetary choices about what you can justify (for the record the 1000uf will be Nichicon Muse and only the 100uf local caps are black gate, we couldn't justify the cost at this stage) the again, do so.
Diving in with a troll along the lines of "this is all crap and you're just feeding the component manufacturers and never thinking for yourselves" does not encourage folks to listen to your findings, believe you to be unbiased or take your input seriously.
If you don't hear it, fine but put the pointy sticks away huh?
Drew
You see, few years ago I was exactly like that too. I didn't even imagine that a component can make any change in sound and I thought that all those reviewers are "golden ears" and you need 100K system to see the difference.
But I started slowly moving up the ladder, by building better amps, upgrading speaker systems and source equipment and suddenly I could also hear the difference. For me it's now like a second nature, and I can right away tell the difference in sound between wooden feet and acrylic feet under the amp.
This is almost like being enlightened, but for that, you have to make at least 1000 posts on this board
I don't mind if somebody starts on a wrong foot or right foot. You migh be pesimistic and initially even joke about "golden ears". The problem starts when it becomes your habit and you do it on full time basis, like it is the case with some members here.
Because if you are really eager to change anything about your system and your perception of the sound, it's possible for everybody. Unless of course, when the psychological barrier is too strong, as it's obviously the case with some people.
But I started slowly moving up the ladder, by building better amps, upgrading speaker systems and source equipment and suddenly I could also hear the difference. For me it's now like a second nature, and I can right away tell the difference in sound between wooden feet and acrylic feet under the amp.
This is almost like being enlightened, but for that, you have to make at least 1000 posts on this board
I don't mind if somebody starts on a wrong foot or right foot. You migh be pesimistic and initially even joke about "golden ears". The problem starts when it becomes your habit and you do it on full time basis, like it is the case with some members here.
Because if you are really eager to change anything about your system and your perception of the sound, it's possible for everybody. Unless of course, when the psychological barrier is too strong, as it's obviously the case with some people.
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