On the chinese language (DIYPlus) build thread for spencers D1V3 there is quite a bit of discussion of the various PCM63 doing the rounds.
The verdict according to finneybear (apologies for poor google translation):
" K2 is BB selected to the Sony PCM-3348HR used in digital recording and mastering of PCM-9000 CD masters on the machine. PCM-3348HR a spent 48 K2. K2 is the most common Japanese production, but the Philippines births.
KY Yamaha professional is selected to the plane. Theoretically K2, KY these are only Chiwei goods, 90% of the new goods is false.
Y is for the selection to the professionals, this new model has encountered false Old chance highest. "
Perhaps Spencer or finneybear can weigh in?
cheers
Paul
The verdict according to finneybear (apologies for poor google translation):
" K2 is BB selected to the Sony PCM-3348HR used in digital recording and mastering of PCM-9000 CD masters on the machine. PCM-3348HR a spent 48 K2. K2 is the most common Japanese production, but the Philippines births.
KY Yamaha professional is selected to the plane. Theoretically K2, KY these are only Chiwei goods, 90% of the new goods is false.
Y is for the selection to the professionals, this new model has encountered false Old chance highest. "
Perhaps Spencer or finneybear can weigh in?
cheers
Paul
!!!
Paul,
good step forward! I was trying Google for "ProAudio" etc, but did not find anything.
As for the Sony PCM-3348HR - it is a Reel to Reel Digital Mastering device; the list price was once US $ 127,000.- ...
I would think that the build-in "K2" can't be a wrong choice, and as we know it should be better then K (of course).
Here is a picture of the 3348-HR. Quite impressive...
I just forward your post to Spencer. Will wait to his reply.
Regards,
IY
Paul,
good step forward! I was trying Google for "ProAudio" etc, but did not find anything.
As for the Sony PCM-3348HR - it is a Reel to Reel Digital Mastering device; the list price was once US $ 127,000.- ...
I would think that the build-in "K2" can't be a wrong choice, and as we know it should be better then K (of course).
Here is a picture of the 3348-HR. Quite impressive...
I just forward your post to Spencer. Will wait to his reply.
Regards,
IY
Attachments
I have the Sony PCM-3348HR service manual and the HR version use SM5842APT and PCM1702U-K.
I think the only way is to test it in a good DAC in order to reveal if the chip is real or not. Also I think the below points should give us some trace:
1. Date code
2. Ink mark or laser marking
3. Used or NOS
4. Text font and positioning
So far I am getting my chips from a China source which I know they took the chips from old equipments or obsolete hifi sets.
I cannot say my KY is really Original or NOT but I feel the sound is more musical to me relative to my PK chips from Ruach. Since the KY are all old chips > 10 yrs old and Ruach chip is relatively newer, I may get same sound after burning Ruach chips for few years!! Who knows!
If I am to fake a PCM63, there are two chips that can be used directly. PCM1702 and PCM1704. PCM1702 is almost identical and the PCM1704 only require minor pin setting to make it work at 20 bits. The idea is to pack the PCM1702 SMD parts into a DIP28 parts and I think it is not too difficult to do it with today technology.
Most important is that I am happy with my chips and the value for the money!
I think the only way is to test it in a good DAC in order to reveal if the chip is real or not. Also I think the below points should give us some trace:
1. Date code
2. Ink mark or laser marking
3. Used or NOS
4. Text font and positioning
So far I am getting my chips from a China source which I know they took the chips from old equipments or obsolete hifi sets.
I cannot say my KY is really Original or NOT but I feel the sound is more musical to me relative to my PK chips from Ruach. Since the KY are all old chips > 10 yrs old and Ruach chip is relatively newer, I may get same sound after burning Ruach chips for few years!! Who knows!
If I am to fake a PCM63, there are two chips that can be used directly. PCM1702 and PCM1704. PCM1702 is almost identical and the PCM1704 only require minor pin setting to make it work at 20 bits. The idea is to pack the PCM1702 SMD parts into a DIP28 parts and I think it is not too difficult to do it with today technology.
Most important is that I am happy with my chips and the value for the money!
If so, the situation clears up:
1.
BB was indeed selling K2, KY and Y, but only to professionals.
2.
It was not in the interest of the big companies (like Yamaha, Sony etc.) to make public to the fact that they are using not their own Chips - but the most excellent BB Chips in their most renown professional devices.
3. BB - from its side - did not put the specifications on their data sheets; Deal. Point.
4. It is easy to build a SMD part (PCM1702 or 1704) into a DIP 28 case; there are many faked chips therefore around (probably also K and K2).
5.
Of course, it would have been silly to build them with an obviously faked print; therefore, there are some original professional K, K2 and Y chips with gold-coloured print as well, and these are also being faked.
6.
To reveal the real quality of the Professional Chip (K2, KY and Y) one needs a true first class DAC & system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
beauty_devine – for now I would say, that you should try your “Y” in a first class DAC.
Regards,
IY
1.
BB was indeed selling K2, KY and Y, but only to professionals.
2.
It was not in the interest of the big companies (like Yamaha, Sony etc.) to make public to the fact that they are using not their own Chips - but the most excellent BB Chips in their most renown professional devices.
3. BB - from its side - did not put the specifications on their data sheets; Deal. Point.
4. It is easy to build a SMD part (PCM1702 or 1704) into a DIP 28 case; there are many faked chips therefore around (probably also K and K2).
5.
Of course, it would have been silly to build them with an obviously faked print; therefore, there are some original professional K, K2 and Y chips with gold-coloured print as well, and these are also being faked.
6.
To reveal the real quality of the Professional Chip (K2, KY and Y) one needs a true first class DAC & system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
beauty_devine – for now I would say, that you should try your “Y” in a first class DAC.
Regards,
IY
irgendjemand said:
And the K2 that I tested have not been any better than random picked J or K. Maybe they were faked.
irgendjemand said:
???
irgendjemand said:
Why ? Another potential professional customers could be interested...
irgendjemand said:
Big big $$$$$ business to sell a few faked chips to a handfull of DIYers...
irgendjemand said:
For the big big $$$$$ business...
irgendjemand said:
An analyzer will tell you the truth.
Bernhard said:
Bernhard,
How about deciding what do you want to say? Your quotations 1 and 2 are contradiction... OR: the true fake that I can think about is using the Analyzer instead of the ears…. Or - check your Analyzer (a more polite version, but fake).
One for sure: If the K2 PCMs which you had are no fakes, and if you can’t hear the different between J and K – then: or your Stereo is pure S---T or you better go to check your hearing (seriously).
Now, in Post Nr. 6, I already said that it makes little sense if any to fake the 63 Chips. Here is the quote for you: “it demands a tremendously amount of affords for a relatively small market-segment”. Kapito?
I am not sure if your cynical approach really helps this board. I can also be cynical, and a sharp tongue is not of a problem. I read your Post again - no wonder people are afraid to say things here.
Leben Sie Wohl!
Better people don't waste too much money on fancy stamps.
Your perception of sound is subjective. If you prefer Y, that doesn't mean the chips are better. Lots of people like 1543 which is total garbage technically.
Then if somebody reports that the Y chip is inferior to K, you put it on the poor os filter or another matter of bad implementation...
As soon as terms like rich and full are used to describe the sound of a dac chip, it is getting suspicious anyway.
[cynical]
And yes, I'm def, my Stereo is poor and my analyzer is dead...
[/cynical]
I know the correlations between sound and test results of good and bad chips very well.
Your perception of sound is subjective. If you prefer Y, that doesn't mean the chips are better. Lots of people like 1543 which is total garbage technically.
Then if somebody reports that the Y chip is inferior to K, you put it on the poor os filter or another matter of bad implementation...
As soon as terms like rich and full are used to describe the sound of a dac chip, it is getting suspicious anyway.
[cynical]
And yes, I'm def, my Stereo is poor and my analyzer is dead...
[/cynical]
I know the correlations between sound and test results of good and bad chips very well.
Hi Folks,
Please calm down, this forum are gentleman, perhaps some others expertise still not found the answers nor the resolve, we need their help!!
But say "fake" cheaply about to build this complicated chips, are out of sense to me, many others semi to plagiat to make money, not to this and for low demand about this chips
BTW, beauty_divine, is that "Y" is restamped or been sanding and relabeling?
About that production date code, are you already asked Burr-Brown (TI now) for that code? Even Burr-Brown not have an Info about "Y" spec?
Burr-Brown not recognize in the data sheet about KY, spencer use of it and say its GOOD, and i also trust those "KY" are not fake!! hehehe....
Good or Bad sound is very relatively especially in this terms, its about "taste"
Lovely to hear, what TI say about this...
all the best,
a'af
Please calm down, this forum are gentleman, perhaps some others expertise still not found the answers nor the resolve, we need their help!!
But say "fake" cheaply about to build this complicated chips, are out of sense to me, many others semi to plagiat to make money, not to this and for low demand about this chips
BTW, beauty_divine, is that "Y" is restamped or been sanding and relabeling?
About that production date code, are you already asked Burr-Brown (TI now) for that code? Even Burr-Brown not have an Info about "Y" spec?
Burr-Brown not recognize in the data sheet about KY, spencer use of it and say its GOOD, and i also trust those "KY" are not fake!! hehehe....
Good or Bad sound is very relatively especially in this terms, its about "taste"
Lovely to hear, what TI say about this...
all the best,
a'af
FWIW I have dismembered a Y that arrived here dead. From what I can tell there is no embedded SMD so that possibility can be eliminated from the list as far as I'm concerned. Sorry the pic is so blurry. The grey area is the wafer which finishes where the chip has been cut in half.
It is possibile the late date coded chips were TI/BB made production runs to manufacturer order after the chips were officially taken off the market.
It is possibile the late date coded chips were TI/BB made production runs to manufacturer order after the chips were officially taken off the market.
Attachments
Sony USA list the K2 as an in stock replacement part. The part number is for the DABK9001 D-A interface board (I've seen one listed used for $4500USD). Sony sell the part for $93USD per unit, but that is close to current offerings on fleaBay for a K part.
Ranger Audio list the Y as a pro-audio spare - pity they can't be contacted via email - so it seems certain the Y grade was used in professional rather than consumer gear. I wonder if the Y designation points to Yamaha usage as has been suggested for the KY?
I've discovered also the attached doc on the TI website announcing details of end of production for the PCM63 series P, P-1, P-J, K, K2, KY and Y. First official docs I've seen listing the KY!! Stated date of final delivery is before 15 November 2002, so final date codes should have been prior to that date. There might have been some variation on dates after this document was published but it does indicate that anything with a date code of '03 or later should be treated with caution.
I've also emailed TI Japan requesting information on the production dates of the PCM63P grades. Hopefully we will get something useful from them.
cheers
Paul
Ranger Audio list the Y as a pro-audio spare - pity they can't be contacted via email - so it seems certain the Y grade was used in professional rather than consumer gear. I wonder if the Y designation points to Yamaha usage as has been suggested for the KY?
I've discovered also the attached doc on the TI website announcing details of end of production for the PCM63 series P, P-1, P-J, K, K2, KY and Y. First official docs I've seen listing the KY!! Stated date of final delivery is before 15 November 2002, so final date codes should have been prior to that date. There might have been some variation on dates after this document was published but it does indicate that anything with a date code of '03 or later should be treated with caution.
I've also emailed TI Japan requesting information on the production dates of the PCM63P grades. Hopefully we will get something useful from them.
cheers
Paul
according to Intersil corp.:
Resistor shifts caused by the thermal stresses of packaging :
These packaging shifts limit the accuracy that can be achieved using wafer level correction methods such as laser trimming, which has also been found to degrade the time stability of thin film resistors at the 14-bit level.
Resistor shifts caused by the thermal stresses of packaging :
These packaging shifts limit the accuracy that can be achieved using wafer level correction methods such as laser trimming, which has also been found to degrade the time stability of thin film resistors at the 14-bit level.
Where I put my 63-Ks pretending to be genuine and the 63-Ys suspected to be fake is in a Sony CDP 338ESD, with heavily moded (by me) analog, digital an power parts. This way the machine sounds much better than the mentioned Parasound 1000 in a factory state, except DACs change from J to K grade. As mentioned previously the DF is SM5847 - best sounding so far to my knowledge so I assume the setup is correct.
To my opinion the only Ys that could be accepted as genuine should come from an old equipment and that would be obvious. Don't you guys mention that recently there were so many high grades of new PCM63s around, that has been an obsolete device for years??? When there is a market demand (even a handful of audiophiles) there would be supply too - basic economy
As to the analyzer check - indeed that would say the truth especially in the low signal level where the differences between the grades are much more obvious. I intend to do so - compare the SDR for K and Y grades in the -40dB, -60dB, -70dB and - 80dB output levels and will share the results.
As to now my Ks meet all the low level spec limits so I assume they are genuine BB and the CDP presents correct test setup.
flshzug said:
That's what I think, the resistors do age. Fron molding in plastic, from usage and from just sitting around.
Over the years a chip with any grade may change to any other grade, that's why I think spending lots of money on grades is useless.
I have tested S1 , S2, K, K2 and they have all been disappointing.
Some low grades have been much better.
Bernhard said:
Indeed, resistors age but ... don't they age equally meaning the entire ladder so their ratio, consequently INL and DNL of the DAC stay constant?
If you say "disappointing", may you quote the measurements results, please? Especially the distortion products magnitude at -40, -60 and -70 dB to -80dB output levels @991Hz test signal.
If they still meet the spec there is no way to say so
Contacting Ti was not much help. They informed me the PCM63 was an obsolete part. Like we didn't know.
Their advice was follow the counterfeit verification procedure - see the attachment...
So basically no joy.
It seems like a case of Buyer Beware.
I'd very much like to see the test on the Y's you have. It would be nice to know one way or the other if we were getting what we payed for.
Their advice was follow the counterfeit verification procedure - see the attachment...
So basically no joy.
It seems like a case of Buyer Beware.
I'd very much like to see the test on the Y's you have. It would be nice to know one way or the other if we were getting what we payed for.
beauty_divine said:
Indeed, resistors age but ... don't they age equally meaning the entire ladder so their ratio, consequently INL and DNL of the DAC stay constant?
If you say "disappointing", may you quote the measurements results, please? Especially the distortion products magnitude at -40, -60 and -70 dB to -80dB output levels @991Hz test signal.
If they still meet the spec there is no way to say so
Please just go to:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49778&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
I have not kept further documentation.
Posts 9 & 10 are a pair of PCM63-K2 tested with my first analyzer: K3 -55,1 dB and -52,1 dB.
Scroll up and compare with Philips and Pioneer bitstream converters and good PCM56, posts 2, 6 & 7. All better than -62 dB.
See also post 76 upper picture with newer analyzer: ancient PCM53, far below -60 dB.
I have collected a lot of PCM56 that all come close to the theoretical limit of -65dB.
So I call the K2 disappointing.
Still, it beats any TDA1540 or TDA1543 hands down
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