true.
4 x tg9 = 6.5" but with wider dispersion above 3khz. (I learned to not try to push a 6.5" up to 5khz crossover point). 8" was 3 people wide dispersion at 12', not enough for me.
I had a focused 4 x 4" driver (5" frames) vertical array. It was super focused. Standing up you got dizzy because the high end dropped out so fast you'd think you have a head cold.
I've seen a few here now who really like the tg9 (ddr?), I think I'd call it detail or micro dynamics.
I'm sitting 7' from speaker now. I loved my 9x4" focused. I'm against whizzers if you can get away from them.
But thanks for the recommendations. I may not build it, just a curiosity seeing as the tg9 is only $9 at madisound.
4 x tg9 = 6.5" but with wider dispersion above 3khz. (I learned to not try to push a 6.5" up to 5khz crossover point). 8" was 3 people wide dispersion at 12', not enough for me.
I had a focused 4 x 4" driver (5" frames) vertical array. It was super focused. Standing up you got dizzy because the high end dropped out so fast you'd think you have a head cold.
I've seen a few here now who really like the tg9 (ddr?), I think I'd call it detail or micro dynamics.
I'm sitting 7' from speaker now. I loved my 9x4" focused. I'm against whizzers if you can get away from them.
But thanks for the recommendations. I may not build it, just a curiosity seeing as the tg9 is only $9 at madisound.
I wish. They are in my home theatre room which isnt conveniant for every day use
When my kids get older I will make a new set for the living room Simply put - I love my arrays
I fail to understand the concept of “larger than life”. Nearly anything you listen to in a living room, if you want to make it realistic will be larger than life. Only if you are listening to one guy sitting on a chair playing a guitar will it be life like.
My goal is to re-create the illusion of being in a symphony hall, or sitting at a night club in the first row, or being at a rock concert. All of these will produce a sound stage which will be way larger than my room.
I want larger than the life of my 12 x 12 room; I want to be transported somewhere else.
My goal is to re-create the illusion of being in a symphony hall, or sitting at a night club in the first row, or being at a rock concert. All of these will produce a sound stage which will be way larger than my room.
I want larger than the life of my 12 x 12 room; I want to be transported somewhere else.
hmm.
good points.
live concerts are huge.
symphonies are huge.
bands are huge.
James Taylor concert is huge.
but,
Someone standing in front of you singing is not huge.
one trumpet (although loud) is a ball of sound, not a 6' tall line.
my curved array (as does yours probably) didn't (seem like) 4' tall mouths.
good points.
live concerts are huge.
symphonies are huge.
bands are huge.
James Taylor concert is huge.
but,
Someone standing in front of you singing is not huge.
one trumpet (although loud) is a ball of sound, not a 6' tall line.
my curved array (as does yours probably) didn't (seem like) 4' tall mouths.
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While it's often linked to line array behaviour, I don't experience out of proportion mouth sizes etc. Stage size is linked to the recordings, meaning not all recordings sound equally big or small. When I did not have damping panels at first reflection points, all songs had a huge wide stage.
Now it varies, like I said, depending on the play back material. It can image wider than the arrays, the arrays themselves give no clue of their position, they disappear. A strong "you are there" sense. Imaging often is bigger than the room I'm in.
I can adjust most parts of it at will, much depends on my virtual lateral reflections (timing, level and content).
Now it varies, like I said, depending on the play back material. It can image wider than the arrays, the arrays themselves give no clue of their position, they disappear. A strong "you are there" sense. Imaging often is bigger than the room I'm in.
I can adjust most parts of it at will, much depends on my virtual lateral reflections (timing, level and content).
The concept of "larger than life"
Us DIY'ers are a picky set, for some reason it goes with the concept. All speakers are not perfect, there is no one size fits all and if there was... us DIY'ers would be ON it! I'm not attacking line arrays, if I was it would be an issue of self loathing but that's my wife job.
No speaker can adjust the sound field to fit what is recorded. It does what it does and for me anyway, I'm used to point source smaller speakers so line arrays can produce a really different sound field from what i'm used to. It is big, very wide and for me (mounted on PPSL subs with 2 feet of clearance above them) a very narrow vertical dispersion. To me, that sounds different--a massive wide dispersion but a narrow vertical one sounds different.
As most recordings are supposed to sound BIG--that is a good thing! Most of the time I want that huge image--the ultra-wide sweet spot and prefer to limit hard reflections from the floor and ceiling. For my garage sound uses, it is rare that I ever get a flute player going solo so not really an issue. Since I pipe Youtube in, it does sound a bit odd when people are just talking and...well, they are a wall of sound. Granted, I didn't design those things to perform speech, just an oddity of the design.
Would this be adjusted by using 7 line arrays for a surround field with DSP tricks and phasing? Beats me, I don't think there is any real demand for that and I don't have the equipment or the brains to make a recording do that (if possible)
Realistically, it is just a quirk that you don't normally run into with smaller point source speakers but it is there. At this point, I tend to ponder how to treat my garage to absorb some sound while still making it useful as a garage/shop area. I'd be much more open to adding more subs because I can always use more subs and have a place to put one.
No worries, just my thoughts on the matter--no war against arrays is declared. Although I'd love to think I built the "keeper" speakers for life, realistically they will be used until the crossovers dry out, the drivers fall apart or I take a dirt bath. The goal is the last speakers you'll ever need, they do that for garage use. Are they the answer to all my speaker needs in my house? No, other designs work better for my HT because of size, weight (they would kill my dogs!) and I wonder how well surrounds and upcoming Atmos would blend together.
That being said, most people love that wall of sound thing they do. My mother-in-law liked that although speakers are the last thing she really talks about. Not one person has complained about the huge sound field, just a detail I picked up and ponder. The most critical person of that speaker is me, my most modified speaker of all time--a fun project to really learn how deep the rabbit hole goes.
It won't be 100% for 100% of the people all the time though, it won't violate the laws of physics and is not the be all, end all design in audio. It is good though, very good but I still warn people to be absolutely sure to fully understand it, what it does, why it does it and have your eyes wide open going in. The details matter so once that is said, go for it and use all the tips and tricks to make it work for you, in your room and for your needs. It is an epic pain in the butt when you screw something up--just by the sheer quanitity of drivers.
If you find it is not the last nth of perfection, at least it does things differently and have fun messing around with it. I did it for a hobby, an education and to have something unique. Redoing them THREE Times sure increased my woodworking skills, my education level went up as I read hundreds of pages of theory on why I was having issues and my skills went up making adjustments that sound so... weird.
In summation, as a hobby and educational tool--can't beat building your own line array. If you really like a challenge, making it a multi-way will be a cure for that. However, if you are a perfectionist and it must be all things for all people--it won't get there. No speaker can do that and for some, they might be disappointed after putting in all the time and effort expecting it to be perfection. I'm not one of those people but just something to consider.
The best thing is to find those things, listen to them and get the idea of how they operate. How to find a pair is on you! Good luck!
Us DIY'ers are a picky set, for some reason it goes with the concept. All speakers are not perfect, there is no one size fits all and if there was... us DIY'ers would be ON it! I'm not attacking line arrays, if I was it would be an issue of self loathing but that's my wife job.
No speaker can adjust the sound field to fit what is recorded. It does what it does and for me anyway, I'm used to point source smaller speakers so line arrays can produce a really different sound field from what i'm used to. It is big, very wide and for me (mounted on PPSL subs with 2 feet of clearance above them) a very narrow vertical dispersion. To me, that sounds different--a massive wide dispersion but a narrow vertical one sounds different.
As most recordings are supposed to sound BIG--that is a good thing! Most of the time I want that huge image--the ultra-wide sweet spot and prefer to limit hard reflections from the floor and ceiling. For my garage sound uses, it is rare that I ever get a flute player going solo so not really an issue. Since I pipe Youtube in, it does sound a bit odd when people are just talking and...well, they are a wall of sound. Granted, I didn't design those things to perform speech, just an oddity of the design.
Would this be adjusted by using 7 line arrays for a surround field with DSP tricks and phasing? Beats me, I don't think there is any real demand for that and I don't have the equipment or the brains to make a recording do that (if possible)
Realistically, it is just a quirk that you don't normally run into with smaller point source speakers but it is there. At this point, I tend to ponder how to treat my garage to absorb some sound while still making it useful as a garage/shop area. I'd be much more open to adding more subs because I can always use more subs and have a place to put one.
No worries, just my thoughts on the matter--no war against arrays is declared. Although I'd love to think I built the "keeper" speakers for life, realistically they will be used until the crossovers dry out, the drivers fall apart or I take a dirt bath. The goal is the last speakers you'll ever need, they do that for garage use. Are they the answer to all my speaker needs in my house? No, other designs work better for my HT because of size, weight (they would kill my dogs!) and I wonder how well surrounds and upcoming Atmos would blend together.
That being said, most people love that wall of sound thing they do. My mother-in-law liked that although speakers are the last thing she really talks about. Not one person has complained about the huge sound field, just a detail I picked up and ponder. The most critical person of that speaker is me, my most modified speaker of all time--a fun project to really learn how deep the rabbit hole goes.
It won't be 100% for 100% of the people all the time though, it won't violate the laws of physics and is not the be all, end all design in audio. It is good though, very good but I still warn people to be absolutely sure to fully understand it, what it does, why it does it and have your eyes wide open going in. The details matter so once that is said, go for it and use all the tips and tricks to make it work for you, in your room and for your needs. It is an epic pain in the butt when you screw something up--just by the sheer quanitity of drivers.
If you find it is not the last nth of perfection, at least it does things differently and have fun messing around with it. I did it for a hobby, an education and to have something unique. Redoing them THREE Times sure increased my woodworking skills, my education level went up as I read hundreds of pages of theory on why I was having issues and my skills went up making adjustments that sound so... weird.
In summation, as a hobby and educational tool--can't beat building your own line array. If you really like a challenge, making it a multi-way will be a cure for that. However, if you are a perfectionist and it must be all things for all people--it won't get there. No speaker can do that and for some, they might be disappointed after putting in all the time and effort expecting it to be perfection. I'm not one of those people but just something to consider.
The best thing is to find those things, listen to them and get the idea of how they operate. How to find a pair is on you! Good luck!
All I'm saying is that you don't have to have that "larger than life" imaging from line arrays. Avoid or solve early reflections with damping (can't EQ it out), EQ the line to combat the 3 dB drop they all initially have and presto, you've tamed that larger than life feature of the array.
Use FIR filtering for best results, they will start to sound like point sources. This may not be for everybody though. Some people actually like that larger than life feature. It's not the arrays themselves that do this. It is the delayed copies of the initial sound that makes it sound that big. A trick often used in recording techniques.
Make it work with the room and you will have a completely different speaker. But you get to keep the dynamics, the abundance of power available, the 3dB drop in SPL for each doubling of distance, the low distortion... It all depends on personal goals and preference. Do what suits you, or the music you listen to. I did want a speaker that could play anything I throw at it. A good tonal balance was my top priority, good imaging does not have to fall behind at all, you can have both with arrays, depending on what you can do within the room.
A lot of people actually like what a room does, sometimes without being fully aware of it. Our brain is a funny thing, it filters out a lot. Just record whatever you have in the listening spot and listen back on headphones. That will make hearing the room a lot easier. This works for all types of speakers, Point sources have a different way of working with the room. OB speakers have their own way too. If you take out the room factor they will start to sound more alike than different.
Use FIR filtering for best results, they will start to sound like point sources. This may not be for everybody though. Some people actually like that larger than life feature. It's not the arrays themselves that do this. It is the delayed copies of the initial sound that makes it sound that big. A trick often used in recording techniques.
Make it work with the room and you will have a completely different speaker. But you get to keep the dynamics, the abundance of power available, the 3dB drop in SPL for each doubling of distance, the low distortion... It all depends on personal goals and preference. Do what suits you, or the music you listen to. I did want a speaker that could play anything I throw at it. A good tonal balance was my top priority, good imaging does not have to fall behind at all, you can have both with arrays, depending on what you can do within the room.
A lot of people actually like what a room does, sometimes without being fully aware of it. Our brain is a funny thing, it filters out a lot. Just record whatever you have in the listening spot and listen back on headphones. That will make hearing the room a lot easier. This works for all types of speakers, Point sources have a different way of working with the room. OB speakers have their own way too. If you take out the room factor they will start to sound more alike than different.
Tuck and roll with what color sparkles?
Waaaay back when I was in grade school, they had Shure column looking speakers in the gym--it was used for assemblies with teachers yapping about not playing in the street and a cop called "Officer Friendly" informing us about not jaywalking etc.
At that time I was not too concerned with audio--a hockey stick maybe. Many years later, was reading about arrays and saw those things. They were used in very reflective environments like gyms for speech purposes. No highs, no lows must be... column speakers. Thought about it, the assemblies at school were not exactly hi-fi--interesting.
Very interesting read about owner's experiences with line arrays. I have mine and enjoy them in my garage--I am biased and do have a brew or two in there so not exactly scientific. My buddy that screws around making recordings does like to bring over his latest file and likes to listen to them on the things as a different angle. I guess he is listening for things he don't hear with his traditional (not enough bass) studio monitors--maybe. He listens to the arrays full range then I kick in the subs while listening again. Not sure if that means anything, he is rather weird.
I know I should have not read this thread--I'm thinking will a row of OC panels at the first reflection points "cure" any oddities I "think" I hear? Not sure, I'll hang up some blankets and carpeting to listen for changes though--if it improves I might give Owens Corning a call. Being a realist, I can't make a cement floor and smooth ceiling garage a sound room. The lawnmowers and BBQ grills/smokers are great for diffusion though!
The final answer is--make some sawdust and the wesayso 25 full range with DSP files would be the best way to start. The Dayton Audio kit and miniDSP with files preloaded would be much easier if you don't have a garage full of tools. Those 3.5" drivers on sale at 9 bucks a pop puts the 25 driver versions at around 500 bucks--throw in some DSP, wood and grills--not too extreme of a price. You'll need subs but who doesn't?
Now to figure out what kind of acoustic absorbers I have laying around--everyone have a great weekend!
Waaaay back when I was in grade school, they had Shure column looking speakers in the gym--it was used for assemblies with teachers yapping about not playing in the street and a cop called "Officer Friendly" informing us about not jaywalking etc.
At that time I was not too concerned with audio--a hockey stick maybe. Many years later, was reading about arrays and saw those things.
They were used in very reflective environments like gyms for speech purposes. No highs, no lows must be... column speakers. Thought about it, the assemblies at school were not exactly hi-fi--interesting. Very interesting read about owner's experiences with line arrays. I have mine and enjoy them in my garage--I am biased and do have a brew or two in there so not exactly scientific. My buddy that screws around making recordings does like to bring over his latest file and likes to listen to them on the things as a different angle. I guess he is listening for things he don't hear with his traditional (not enough bass) studio monitors--maybe. He listens to the arrays full range then I kick in the subs while listening again. Not sure if that means anything, he is rather weird.
I know I should have not read this thread--I'm thinking will a row of OC panels at the first reflection points "cure" any oddities I "think" I hear? Not sure, I'll hang up some blankets and carpeting to listen for changes though--if it improves I might give Owens Corning a call. Being a realist, I can't make a cement floor and smooth ceiling garage a sound room. The lawnmowers and BBQ grills/smokers are great for diffusion though!
The final answer is--make some sawdust and the wesayso 25 full range with DSP files would be the best way to start. The Dayton Audio kit and miniDSP with files preloaded would be much easier if you don't have a garage full of tools. Those 3.5" drivers on sale at 9 bucks a pop puts the 25 driver versions at around 500 bucks--throw in some DSP, wood and grills--not too extreme of a price. You'll need subs but who doesn't?
Now to figure out what kind of acoustic absorbers I have laying around--everyone have a great weekend!
I'm partial to columns, or concrete sonotubes. I used 3-6" of foam (in 3' x 3' squares) behind and / or side reflection points. It made everything very dead sounding, not fun.
this is my favorite article about using column (round diffusors). ACS Articles - The Sono Tube Fix!
Hearing what returns to you talking into a quadratic diffusor, I don't want that mixing with the direct sound. But a round shape evenly spreads out the sound. If I remember it works really well at double the diameter (2khz) tapering down to ok at 1/2 wavelength diameter (say 550hz).
12" across 4' tall sonotube available from home depot for $11.50. I'd do my living room if I was single.
this is my favorite article about using column (round diffusors). ACS Articles - The Sono Tube Fix!
Hearing what returns to you talking into a quadratic diffusor, I don't want that mixing with the direct sound. But a round shape evenly spreads out the sound. If I remember it works really well at double the diameter (2khz) tapering down to ok at 1/2 wavelength diameter (say 550hz).
12" across 4' tall sonotube available from home depot for $11.50. I'd do my living room if I was single.
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1. whether it is best speaker for you after compare to many different speaker and different style/method? (if answer is not, then why?)
Difficult to say, I have been building various types of speakers for more then 30 years now so I know my taste in sound pretty well but it is personal preference and not valid for everyone.
I really like good dynamic capabilities and high resolution in speakers, when there is a sharp high energy transient it should carry trough and shock you slightly, this is where i feel most of the modern "hifi" typical 6,5" stand mounts or floor standers fail miserably, sure they sound nice, but where is the edge?
Likewise I'm allergic to swollen undefined bass performance in speakers, unfortunately this is more common then not in the majority of the above mentioned consumer products of our time in general, and yes there are exceptions...
The bass should be there, thigh and musical, not take over and bloat the entire performance, it destroys the music and the experience.
But enough ranting, remember, these are my own opinions only, you may not agree and that perfectly fine, it would be a pretty boring world if everyone had the same opinions right.
In this regard i find that my 12x3fe22 line arrays doing a good job, the resolution is there, and the dynamics are decent, what they do they do pretty well and in a controlled manner.
2. how much you satisfied with your speaker (0-100 score)?
About 80, they are really clean and tight, good midrange performance but they lack some level in the 200Hz and down range, and they lack some level above 12k.
I cross them over to a pair of THAM10 at 158Hz, and time align them as good as I can and the end result reflects my taste in sound very well.
3. if you not satisfied enough, what area that have (-) thing in this type of speaker that make you feel ill?
It does not make me feel ill at all, but I should perhaps have given them a bit more baffle area to lift the below 200Hz range, but that is a enclosure design aspect not a design principle gripe, other then that, nothing.
Difficult to say, I have been building various types of speakers for more then 30 years now so I know my taste in sound pretty well but it is personal preference and not valid for everyone.
I really like good dynamic capabilities and high resolution in speakers, when there is a sharp high energy transient it should carry trough and shock you slightly, this is where i feel most of the modern "hifi" typical 6,5" stand mounts or floor standers fail miserably, sure they sound nice, but where is the edge?
Likewise I'm allergic to swollen undefined bass performance in speakers, unfortunately this is more common then not in the majority of the above mentioned consumer products of our time in general, and yes there are exceptions...
The bass should be there, thigh and musical, not take over and bloat the entire performance, it destroys the music and the experience.
But enough ranting, remember, these are my own opinions only, you may not agree and that perfectly fine, it would be a pretty boring world if everyone had the same opinions right.
In this regard i find that my 12x3fe22 line arrays doing a good job, the resolution is there, and the dynamics are decent, what they do they do pretty well and in a controlled manner.
2. how much you satisfied with your speaker (0-100 score)?
About 80, they are really clean and tight, good midrange performance but they lack some level in the 200Hz and down range, and they lack some level above 12k.
I cross them over to a pair of THAM10 at 158Hz, and time align them as good as I can and the end result reflects my taste in sound very well.
3. if you not satisfied enough, what area that have (-) thing in this type of speaker that make you feel ill?
It does not make me feel ill at all, but I should perhaps have given them a bit more baffle area to lift the below 200Hz range, but that is a enclosure design aspect not a design principle gripe, other then that, nothing.
@martinsson
wow, such a lot of year building speaker building a lot speaker type must need a lot of work and patient. did you have compare to horn like this attachment? and what the benefit your line array to that speaker?
wow, such a lot of year building speaker building a lot speaker type must need a lot of work and patient. did you have compare to horn like this attachment? and what the benefit your line array to that speaker?
Well, only as a hobby, and the first attempts was not that serious, and there was periods of not much being built, but yes, on and off for slightly more then 30 years.
As I see it, building your own speakers, or amps or what ever you need, gives you the option of perhaps saving a bit of money, getting the sound and properties YOU want and, and this is the important thing, you learn a lot in the process, but sure, it takes a lot more time then simply buying something.
I have looked a bit at horns, even designed a few myself, to me horns are still very interesting and if done right they can provide you with a wonderful experience that is very hard to achieve in other ways.
As I see it, building your own speakers, or amps or what ever you need, gives you the option of perhaps saving a bit of money, getting the sound and properties YOU want and, and this is the important thing, you learn a lot in the process, but sure, it takes a lot more time then simply buying something.
I have looked a bit at horns, even designed a few myself, to me horns are still very interesting and if done right they can provide you with a wonderful experience that is very hard to achieve in other ways.
@martinsson
did you have compare your line array to other commercial speaker then what the result?
did you have compare your line array to other commercial speaker then what the result?
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