not necessarily
It will depend on how many restrictions you're living with. Not all horns sound better than all direct radiators. Demanding too much from one horn (especially small size, large bandpass range) diminishes the results.
If you're looking to make a true 100 Hz hypex straight horn, this is the size you're looking at:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-aYUDTGka7sdXUwLXpGdHc3dG8/view?usp=sharing
It's elliptical with a mouth of 54" x 32" so the midrange can be at ear level. You could make it a little shorter (still at full space) with a 12" woofer. This one in particular is loaded with the 8" Fane Studio 8M, but has a removable extension to accommodate a larger woofer.
It will depend on how many restrictions you're living with. Not all horns sound better than all direct radiators. Demanding too much from one horn (especially small size, large bandpass range) diminishes the results.
If you're looking to make a true 100 Hz hypex straight horn, this is the size you're looking at:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-aYUDTGka7sdXUwLXpGdHc3dG8/view?usp=sharing
It's elliptical with a mouth of 54" x 32" so the midrange can be at ear level. You could make it a little shorter (still at full space) with a 12" woofer. This one in particular is loaded with the 8" Fane Studio 8M, but has a removable extension to accommodate a larger woofer.
TANNOYMANIA
"The horn is, in effect, creating a woofer that is about fifteen square feet and that gives it a great advantage in moving the air mass of your entire room. Totally effortless dynamics results, which are completely unknown to ported or sealed speaker enclosures. Period end of story. No debate."
Horn loudspeaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
" The horn serves to improve the coupling efficiency between the speaker driver and the air. The horn can be thought of as an "acoustic transformer" that provides impedance matching between the relatively dense diaphragm material and the less-dense air. The result is greater acoustic output power from a given driver.[1]"
4818
I had a W-bin bass horn once.
A keele w-bin, tuned to 35hz.
I had one b4 I knew what I had and how to properly use it. Bass drum felt like a drum. Moving 7ft2 of mouth air probably helped. The bass felt more real than 4x18's crossed at 100hz 24db to 4x15's. No bass from the bass horn until you got over 10' away. Not a subwoofer, but serious quality woofer. Just not deep enough nor mouth for floor loading for much below 90hz.
Norman
"The horn is, in effect, creating a woofer that is about fifteen square feet and that gives it a great advantage in moving the air mass of your entire room. Totally effortless dynamics results, which are completely unknown to ported or sealed speaker enclosures. Period end of story. No debate."
Horn loudspeaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
" The horn serves to improve the coupling efficiency between the speaker driver and the air. The horn can be thought of as an "acoustic transformer" that provides impedance matching between the relatively dense diaphragm material and the less-dense air. The result is greater acoustic output power from a given driver.[1]"
4818
I had a W-bin bass horn once.
A keele w-bin, tuned to 35hz.
I had one b4 I knew what I had and how to properly use it. Bass drum felt like a drum. Moving 7ft2 of mouth air probably helped. The bass felt more real than 4x18's crossed at 100hz 24db to 4x15's. No bass from the bass horn until you got over 10' away. Not a subwoofer, but serious quality woofer. Just not deep enough nor mouth for floor loading for much below 90hz.
Norman
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If Altec 7 VOTT despite the relativly heavy 15" cone and the short Horn load is famous for its dynamic and punchy sound in the upper bass and midrange bandpass : does a lighter and littlier cone work fine with the ad hoc cabinet size if less efficienty is needed due to the size of a 8" to 12" cone driver? (in the hope to an even more better transcient and transparency...PHL 3040/3030 driver e.g. ?
To stay more in OP question if above is off topic : how subjectivly perform an Onken with a unique 15" VS an Altec A7 in the mid-range ? (let say : 100 hz to around 800 hz) ?
I like the idea of two 18" drivers in a Kef arrengement like said above... which XO possible for an aceptable transcient with such heavy cone ? 100 hz max to avoid the beginning of voice range ?
To stay more in OP question if above is off topic : how subjectivly perform an Onken with a unique 15" VS an Altec A7 in the mid-range ? (let say : 100 hz to around 800 hz) ?
I like the idea of two 18" drivers in a Kef arrengement like said above... which XO possible for an aceptable transcient with such heavy cone ? 100 hz max to avoid the beginning of voice range ?
A sugestion based on quick hornresp modelling with a JBL 2220:
A 90cm deep hyperbolic exponential. (rearchamber adds 30 more cm for total depth of 120cm.
T = 0.5 (flair rate)
Mouth size 120cm*80cm. (Total area = 9600sqcm)
Throat size 10cm*30cmm (total area 300sqcm, 1:3 compression)
This will yeld about 90*50 pattern @ 500hz, and good loading to 110hz.
I think such a horn yields a reasonable answer to the threadstarters requirements.
Why not conical? A conical of the same size will beam narrower at 500hz, it will not load as well in the lower part of the passband.
A 90cm deep hyperbolic exponential. (rearchamber adds 30 more cm for total depth of 120cm.
T = 0.5 (flair rate)
Mouth size 120cm*80cm. (Total area = 9600sqcm)
Throat size 10cm*30cmm (total area 300sqcm, 1:3 compression)
This will yeld about 90*50 pattern @ 500hz, and good loading to 110hz.
I think such a horn yields a reasonable answer to the threadstarters requirements.
Why not conical? A conical of the same size will beam narrower at 500hz, it will not load as well in the lower part of the passband.
Always thought midbass should have at least some bass. So, no 8-12" for me. Does anyone know a 8-12" that will do 80Hz like a 15" in a midbass horn? I never managed to model one until I found one that is handmade with field coils. Never heard it though.
Horn must be longer I guess. Mostly only 15" works in Hornresp. Drivers that reach 120Hz is like listening to a kitchen radio.
Horn must be longer I guess. Mostly only 15" works in Hornresp. Drivers that reach 120Hz is like listening to a kitchen radio.
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Now we're talking
The depth can be discussed as deeper will give a lower response. The rests sounds great to me. I can live with this mouth size.
But a deeper horn will also beam more towards higher frequencies. So it's a balancing act. Deeper horn will require a larger mouth to avoid beaming to early....
The lower frequency cut off is not an excact number anyway. I think Leif said his horns are only 80cm deep and hold up to 80hz. In the low frequencies the room comes into effect. It's not a simple 1,2 or 4pi situation. I think Espen (grelv) said in his room the 1pi sims came closest to the real deal.
I would talk to Espen about his opinion on conical vs hyperbolic. Im almost positive he will tell you that the difference in loading is to little to reflect the extra cost/complexity of a hyperbolic exponential. But it's also noteworthy that Bruce Edgar recomends hyperbolic exponential for this frequency range. And their designs is a spin off from his earlier designs....
I would also recomend you to read our own Bjørn Kolbreks papers; https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf
Maybe he (Bjørn Kolbrek) could assist or do the enitre design for you? Try contacting him; Home
The lower frequency cut off is not an excact number anyway. I think Leif said his horns are only 80cm deep and hold up to 80hz. In the low frequencies the room comes into effect. It's not a simple 1,2 or 4pi situation. I think Espen (grelv) said in his room the 1pi sims came closest to the real deal.
I would talk to Espen about his opinion on conical vs hyperbolic. Im almost positive he will tell you that the difference in loading is to little to reflect the extra cost/complexity of a hyperbolic exponential. But it's also noteworthy that Bruce Edgar recomends hyperbolic exponential for this frequency range. And their designs is a spin off from his earlier designs....
I would also recomend you to read our own Bjørn Kolbreks papers; https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf
Maybe he (Bjørn Kolbrek) could assist or do the enitre design for you? Try contacting him; Home
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Yes. I thought about that right after my post FredrikC.
I have talked to Espen some. He said the hyperbolic measured a tad smoother than the conical but was uncertain if it really meant anything in practical matter.
I wasn't aware that a conical was narrower at 500 Hz. I'll bring your thoughts to Espen again.
I can also try to contact Kolbek.
I have talked to Espen some. He said the hyperbolic measured a tad smoother than the conical but was uncertain if it really meant anything in practical matter.
I wasn't aware that a conical was narrower at 500 Hz. I'll bring your thoughts to Espen again.
I can also try to contact Kolbek.
Someone mentioned the Precision Devices 153ER. I would like to try it.
Eminence Kappa 15A Pro has been A/B tested by Speediesteve and is not better than JBL 2220A.
mid-bass horn must be mated with ultra subs
Please forgive me in advance, as I have not followed every nook & cranny of this thread, but, what I do know from experience is, in order to fully really the sonic benefits of a horn loaded mid-bass, one's sub woofers but be truly that:
SUB woofing. Capable of 20 Hz extension AND the ability to move some air.
NOT some "tricky" horn subwoofer, or tuba or tapped nonsense.
I mean a TRUE extended bass reflex or infinite baffle.
I can not grasp how a 40Hz Fs JBL 2226 unit(s) can be used as a "SUB" woofer.
Please, my intentions here are to share my experiences of 40+ years of system building, and not to be snarky about what simply does not work.
Please forgive me in advance, as I have not followed every nook & cranny of this thread, but, what I do know from experience is, in order to fully really the sonic benefits of a horn loaded mid-bass, one's sub woofers but be truly that:
SUB woofing. Capable of 20 Hz extension AND the ability to move some air.
NOT some "tricky" horn subwoofer, or tuba or tapped nonsense.
I mean a TRUE extended bass reflex or infinite baffle.
I can not grasp how a 40Hz Fs JBL 2226 unit(s) can be used as a "SUB" woofer.
Please, my intentions here are to share my experiences of 40+ years of system building, and not to be snarky about what simply does not work.
Interresting : if e.g. 200 hz to 800 hz were choosen for a 8" or 10" mid-bass - mid horn, a direct radiation driver would work better ? I agree from just what I heard about the 80 hz and the 15" (for me 80hz is more upper bass than mid-bass... but just words & definition...
no importance I talk for the upper fhz... I always consider the range between 150/200 hz to something to the low treble (1.2/1.5 hz) is the most diffcult to reproduce with my few listening experience.But is there a good 15" for mid above 150-200 to the 800 hz of the OP ? Here we maybe suffer of the 15" size (some says a 15 is maybe moving too much air for this register ang give a bad tonal balance both because the volume of air and the heavy cone... something a little heavy sound above 200 hz and which gave a bad transition with the fast horn with a compression driver above at the XO !
(that's why my question). But some design are famous to work fine with a 15" afterall : 604 altec driver (16"), VOTT A7, Onken with one or two 15", direct 15" Dr Gedlee use in the mid-bass/mid with him flag-ship
Is the OP band (80-800 hz) too large in relation to a mid bass horn and the XO choosed ? Is it possible to have a mid bass on 2 octaves (200 to 800 hz) with a direct radiation smaller driver for the goal of the OP (I surmise if cone-horn is asked for a mid bass with a cone driver : efficienty is firstly needed then... better damping due to the non sealed design ???).
In fact is there something else than a VOTT or an Onken (which works in this band also) really work in relation to the OP ?
It's a way of asking if it's not more the tonal balance and the best load for this range which choose the drivers(and so the XOs in the mid bass band) ???
E.G. StiggErik fellow : 200 hz something near X0 with below a lot of 18" in an vertival array and above a light planar ! (here I surmise the Multiple 18" are here to allow very small mvt of the cones to match the "fastness" of the planar...)
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I find double 15's (non horn) crossed 24db LR @800hz to a 2' wide mouth horn for a 1.4" compression driver works fine.
Wanting horn loading down to 100hz, that would be something to try.
I'm on a similar path.
Vott (a7) and jbl 4560 really horn load above 200hz.
But maybe an altec 815 (pair of 15's side by side), box is 44" tall x 33" wide x 32" deep.
"They're not doorway friendly, they weigh a ton, and they don't drop low enough to stand on their own for musical SR. But, if you want to hear a drum kit with dynamics that will involuntarily blink your eyes, or a gritty lead that will work your fillings loose, 815's would be a good choice."
Norman
Wanting horn loading down to 100hz, that would be something to try.
I'm on a similar path.
Vott (a7) and jbl 4560 really horn load above 200hz.
But maybe an altec 815 (pair of 15's side by side), box is 44" tall x 33" wide x 32" deep.
"They're not doorway friendly, they weigh a ton, and they don't drop low enough to stand on their own for musical SR. But, if you want to hear a drum kit with dynamics that will involuntarily blink your eyes, or a gritty lead that will work your fillings loose, 815's would be a good choice."
Norman