I can feel the pain...
really sad to read all this nonsense about the advantages of silver over copper, especially since copper has nowdays suceeded the conductivity
of silver by 3%!!!
The most basic matter of physics for copper vs silver is that silver has less resistance per circular mil. That simple fact means that a silver wire will in fact have fewer losses. This will result in getting more single transfer out of the transformer and to your speakers. So you see its not as simple as induction is induction. Also like I said earlier, I've heard copper vs silver in otherwise identical amplifiers and could not hear the difference.
Aluminium can be anodized and aluminium oxid is about the toughest isolator you can thinck off. It will withstand heat far exceeding the meltingpoint of aluminium.
This way you can get a temperature class C transformer that can handle almost any abuse.
I have a 400A transformer that is built that way. I used it once with a watercooled 500A TIG pistol to weld 20x100mm aluminium bars at currents well above ratings. The transformer survived temperatures in excess of 200degC but about everthing else got some form of overheat-damage.
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This simply is not true anymore. Around 1980 I was informed by Outokumpu
(At the time the the worlds biggest copper producer ) that theyr highly purified coppergrades have LESS resistance than silver!
They suxceeded to produce copper with a conductivity of 1.03!!! against 1.0 for silver.
Sorry I have to repeat myself for those that did still not get it, this means that copper can be produced with 3% LESS resistance compared to silver.
I would thinck that by now about any copper producer is able to do what Outokumpu did 30 years ago.
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Where is your source for this information? Show me your reference to where this is documented.
Given the same degree of purity, silver will always have less resistance than copper. It is a simple matter that the atomic structure of a silver atom more freely shares and exchanges its electrons. This cannot be disputed.
Why are you comparing apples to oranges?
"silver wire will in fact have fewer losses." must be qualified by the word "resistive" as in "resistive losses".
Now, " induction is induction." holds true no matter what metal the wire is made of.
Why do you join two very different and unrelated parameters in the same phrase?
Around 1980 I asked a sales-engineer from Outikumpu Oy Finland (worlds biggest copper producer at the time) about an offer of a special drawn sqare copper-wire with a hole to make it suitable for watercooling. He asked me to use one of theyr standard sizes to keep toolingcosts down. I was unable to use those standard sizes because I also needed squared T-connectors in order to arrange paralled coolingwater flow. My idea was to use standard round 8mm coppertube T connectors and stretch them to a sqaure.
The problem, copper, as used for waterinstallation is not pure copper, it is optimized for soldering, and therfore the conductivity is 20%-30% less than copper. So I played with the idea of silverplating the connectors, coil, the whole thing. I mentioned that to the sales-engineer. He told me silverplating is unnecessary because they can deliver a coppergrade purified to a degree that achieves 3% higher conductivity than silver.
The minimum order was 500kg, the prize was FIM 18.000 (tooling, adjustment, special size requirements a.s.o was the most costly part, the extra costs for the highest purified grade where almost nothing, a few % at most). Since I liv in Finland, I can trust what I have been told, in this part of the world you can still trust that you get was has been promised by the sales-engineer of a big company. They would be foolish to risk theyr reputation.
You can do a Google search yourself to find prove
The problem, copper, as used for waterinstallation is not pure copper, it is optimized for soldering, and therfore the conductivity is 20%-30% less than copper. So I played with the idea of silverplating the connectors, coil, the whole thing. I mentioned that to the sales-engineer. He told me silverplating is unnecessary because they can deliver a coppergrade purified to a degree that achieves 3% higher conductivity than silver.
The minimum order was 500kg, the prize was FIM 18.000 (tooling, adjustment, special size requirements a.s.o was the most costly part, the extra costs for the highest purified grade where almost nothing, a few % at most). Since I liv in Finland, I can trust what I have been told, in this part of the world you can still trust that you get was has been promised by the sales-engineer of a big company. They would be foolish to risk theyr reputation.
You can do a Google search yourself to find prove
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Sure, SAME purity, now what producer would be interested to do that?
How financially sound would you thinck it would be for a producer to purify silver to the same extent than copper?
I am sure you understand that PURE copper as well as silver is an unobtainable. But higher purified copper than silver has been a finacial sound project as you can see , for example here:
The production and application of oxygen-free copper
H Rajainmäki, A Helenius, M Kolehmainen - JOM Journal of the Minerals, …, 1993 - Springer
Copper's competitive position in the electrical, electronics, telecommunication, and
construction industries is based on certain favorable properties, especially its high electrical
and thermal conductivity, good formability, good strength, excellent corrosion resistance, ...
Viittausten määrä 2 Aiheeseen liittyviä artikkeleita Kaikki 2 versiota Viittaa Lisää
I was told 3% higher, this artikle states 2%, may be a sligthly different grade
than what I got delivered, cant say but it wont matter to me.
What matters to me is the myth of the supposed magic of silverwires in audio
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*question is, what is inside commonly available wires used for windings
*at 10kHz, skineffect is <1mm, so quality wire can improve sound
*how about silver plated copper?
*lundahl makes small signal tr. with silver (Ag versions).
Fully agree and add: a *VERY* good point was made that the transformer is NOT run with a shorted secondary (where that 3% silver "advantage" might give a .... 3% improvement
) but in series with a speaker voice coil, which usually is copper, and in some cases abismally worse performing aluminum (from a resistive point of view, of course )Amplifier output voltage must develop current into transformer DC resistance + VC DC resistance.
With the worsening fact that speaker VC DC resistance is usually 10X or more transformer secondary DC resistance, turning the "advantage" of going silver for the transformer secondary from 3% to, say, ..... 0.3% or less.
Now if the "Silver Fan" could point to a silver wire Voice Coil speaker, then he *might* impress us a little more with the Silver "advantage".
Until then ..... keep your silver in your jewelry and for minting coins, thanks.
*question is, what is inside commonly available wires used for windings
*at 10kHz, skineffect is <1mm, so quality wire can improve sound
It can be easily and greatly improved using smaller gauge wire (more sections/layers in series/parallel so that the overall section gives low DC resistance and the single wire size is small enough to shift away the skin effect). Just changing copper with silver will never give such improvement.
Arguments about the superiority of silver in comparison to copper always come from people who want sell very expensive stuff (with bigger outcome for little more handwork) or from people who cannot make/design a proper transformer. Some manufactures just make silver transformers because there is a request not because they really are superior....
It is some time now that many fancy about special cores and miraculous materials but none of these will make a good transformer!
If you can find a used Radford-Woodside amplifier just buy it as you will find that this has got some of the best OPT's of the HIFI history. They are made with copper and M6 EI cores though....
It can be easily and greatly improved using smaller gauge wire (more sections/layers in series/parallel so that the overall section gives low DC resistance and the single wire size is small enough to shift away the skin effect). Just changing copper with silver will never give such improvement.
Arguments about the superiority of silver in comparison to copper always come from people who want sell very expensive stuff (with bigger outcome for little more handwork) or from people who cannot make/design a proper transformer. Some manufactures just make silver transformers because there is a request not because they really are superior....
It is some time now that many fancy about special cores and miraculous materials but none of these will make a good transformer!
If you can find a used Radford-Woodside amplifier just buy it as you will find that this has got some of the best OPT's of the HIFI history. They are made with copper and M6 EI cores though....
I had a Radford. The opt is rather small for such an amp so i replaced it by a bigger c-core. After that much was improved.
The radford transformers did 110khz -3db but low end wasn't good enough.
Despite my less than perfect phrasing, you seem to understand what I was writing. I think some of the confusion might have originated from me incorporating losses into induction as a complete system, as in a transformer model. Of course if we are strictly discussing induction than what you wrote is correct.
Mine is very good also at low frequency instead, about 3Hz at -3 dB, and low distortion. The only criticism for that amp (from 1980's) is the circuit which could be better and easily improved from my point of view. Best sonic result comes with the underrated Ei EL34 with tipped glass. This valve cannot take more than 21-22W on the plate because after this point it starts to become red hot but sounds far superior to any other EL34.....
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