4 people were injured, it looks like rather thick plaster, I remember looking up at and thinking it was about 1.5-2 inches thick. My mouth, eyes, and nose was full of that dust... I'm sure that wasn't good to breath..
heres another video:
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140208/logan-square/dubstep-concert-canceled-after-ceiling-collapse
heres another video:
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140208/logan-square/dubstep-concert-canceled-after-ceiling-collapse
Well Saturday's show was a whole lot of fail.
This is the second time in a year that I've been to a show that advertised one of these PK systems, and it was a letdown.
There's a ton of negative comments on the FB page, basically people asking for their money back.
It's nights like that make me want to stop going to shows entirely. How hard is it to plug in a set of speakers and hit 'play?'
From what I could tell, it looks like they were blowing breakers all night, and then the sets were screwed up because the visuals are synced to the music. (IE, if you blow a breaker in the middle of the set you can't pick up from where you left off because now the visuals are ahead of the music.)
Also, the bass was mushy and not terribly loud. I'm guessing the following happened:
1) the last three shows I saw with this type of a setup used a cardioid, and it's easy to spot because the subs are arrayed in a row. I don't think that was the case on Saturday
2) They may have simply run the gear too hard, and the mushy bass may have been due to power compression
3) I'm guessing the show kept stopping because they were tripping breakers due to the high power
lame lame lame lame.
This is the second time in a year that I've been to a show that advertised one of these PK systems, and it was a letdown.
There's a ton of negative comments on the FB page, basically people asking for their money back.
It's nights like that make me want to stop going to shows entirely. How hard is it to plug in a set of speakers and hit 'play?'
From what I could tell, it looks like they were blowing breakers all night, and then the sets were screwed up because the visuals are synced to the music. (IE, if you blow a breaker in the middle of the set you can't pick up from where you left off because now the visuals are ahead of the music.)
Also, the bass was mushy and not terribly loud. I'm guessing the following happened:
1) the last three shows I saw with this type of a setup used a cardioid, and it's easy to spot because the subs are arrayed in a row. I don't think that was the case on Saturday
2) They may have simply run the gear too hard, and the mushy bass may have been due to power compression
3) I'm guessing the show kept stopping because they were tripping breakers due to the high power
lame lame lame lame.
venue?
If they were blowing breakers, it really comes down to the venue being poorly setup (IE no CAMlock 3 phase plugs to plug in a power distro).
2 cx800 are going to take a full 20 amps if driven hard. WIthout a power distro, its goin to be hard to support them.
THis is why I laugh at the current excision tour advertising 100k watts of bass. Says he'll be bringing 100k watts of bass to a local venue near me (900 capacity) and I've worked them almost 50 time... they only have a 100 amp 3 phase power there...
If they were blowing breakers, it really comes down to the venue being poorly setup (IE no CAMlock 3 phase plugs to plug in a power distro).
2 cx800 are going to take a full 20 amps if driven hard. WIthout a power distro, its goin to be hard to support them.
THis is why I laugh at the current excision tour advertising 100k watts of bass. Says he'll be bringing 100k watts of bass to a local venue near me (900 capacity) and I've worked them almost 50 time... they only have a 100 amp 3 phase power there...
That sux.
1) "Cardioid" sub arrays are vertically stacked with (usually) 1 of three subs reversed in direction and polarity, the forward subs delayed.
"End Fire" sub arrays are arrayed in a row towards the audience, each row delayed in relationship to the row behind.
Either arrangement results in less bass behind the stack, which can be a help in "cleaning up" rooms with excessive LF reverb times.
Unfortunately, each method results in a couple dB loss in the forward direction compared to a standard array. A couple dB is not much but:
2) It seems that there is a fair amount of EDM with LF only having 3 dB dynamic range, the same as sine waves.
That kind of drone sounds "mushy" to me even before power compression sets in, which it certainly would at the amplifier limits.
3)Big problem there, once breakers hit their thermal limit, they pop easily after being re-set. They can initially withstand peaks many times their rated load, but once the average goes over the rating for a while, you are stuck with having to turn way down to keep from popping again.
If the subs are seeing music with only 3 dB dynamic range, limited to 4000 watts with 95% efficient amps, they draw almost 35 amps at 120 volts.
Many theaters have a separate three phase sound service of "only" 200 amps for audio, which is 600 amps if the 120volt loads are evenly distributed between all three legs.
Not even factoring in any power drawn by the top cabinets, with the "right" (or wrong) EDM LF content, 18 subs could pop the 200 amp main breaker.
With the dynamic range of some EDM, it is no wonder they are popping breakers, the average AC draw could be 4 times greater than sound systems doing more typical pop music with the same size systems.
Art
Thanks so much for posting that! I was half-tempted to buy tickets to his show at The House of Blues in San Diego. But I'm "0 for 3" with PK Sound in CA now. Every time they've been advertised on a flyer, it's been a dud.
For instance, at the Mad Decent Block Party I could clearly see orange JBL logos on the gear. So I'm guessing that they only used the PK gear for *some* of the shows, not all of them, even though they advertised PK on the flyer. At the Datsik show, they were clearly using what was installed at the club. You could see that the speakers were easily twenty years old. At Saturday's show, I couldn't even *see* any subwoofers, and the mid and the treble was enough to make your ears bleed. So I'm not sure if they were encountering massive power compression. Or maybe the building couldn't provide enough amps, so they were running a smaller set of subs but pushing them way too hard.
I've asked about this on their FB page, and the answers they've given don't seem consistent with what I'm seeing. The excuse seems to be "that venue would only allow a smaller system." But that excuse doesn't make sense; the difference between a 150,000 watt system and a 15,000 watt system is ten decibels. So it doesn't appear that these are "small" systems, most of the time it seems like the DJs are advertising one thing on their flyers and often playing with another.
TLDR: I think PK Sound would have a better reputation if they wouldn't allow DJs to put their logo on sub-standard shows.
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I mean, dont get me wrong, that same venue that excision is bringing 100k watts of bass too had PK for datsik (just 8 of them) and it sounded great. not only would 48 pk sound subs not even get close to fitting (there was no more horizontal space left after going 4 wide @ datsik), but the venue would rattle terribly if it could even support the power (which it cant). It was rattling terribly with just 8.
My hunch is that it's not just the amount of power that's being used, but also the timeframe.
For instance, at Bassnectar the volume was easily ten decibels lower for the first two DJs. It's a neat effect; it really gets the crowd pumped when the volume goes up ten decibels. It basically says "here's the main attraction."
But it also keeps any of the first few DJs from blowing anything up, since they're not getting 100% of the sub's potential.
From what I read on the FB page, the power went out seven times in one night during Saturday's show. It's a total buzz kill; it's similar to the bad old days at movie theaters when movies were sometimes stopped due to technical difficulties and you had to wait patiently for them to start up again. Just totally takes you out of it.
I agree, that's what has me scratching my head. They don't need 150,000 watts to get insanely loud. Makes me wonder if they even used PK gear at all on Saturday.
PK Sound would have a hard time policing DJ promoters to protect their reputation.
The difference between a 150,000 watt bass system and a 15,000 watt system (assuming mutual coupling of 10 times more drivers) is 20 dB.
Bringing in 10 times the sub cabinets would allow a 10 dB increase in level (twice as loud) using the same power.
If power is limited, and the provider wants it loud, the solution is more cabinets, not less cabinets being pushed into thermal compression.
Regardless of the system size, competent engineers would be checking their loads with an amp probe to make sure they don't pop breakers or blow fuses.
Blowing power seven times in one night is more than just slightly stoopid.
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My impression of a properly set up PK Sound subwoofer array is this:
1) Much deeper bass than what you hear at most clubs and concerts
2) Very high SPL, but still clean.
This is what I heard at the Mothership tour and Excision's show in 2012 in Portland.
I've heard a lot of DJs and bands at that same venue in Portland, and when PK isn't there, the lowest octaves are absent and the sound seems a lot 'harder.' Basically it seems like they're trying to squeeze bass out of a cabinet that can't produce it, and in the process they're distorting the mid and the treble, which makes for an evening of ear-bleeding sound.
I'm a huge fan of Flux Pavilion, but his show in Portland, at the same venue, basically fit that description.
I did a little digging around, and managed to find the specs of the 'house PA'. Here's how it compares to the PK setup:
House System vs PK System (same venue, Portland's Roseland Theatre)
Subs: sixteen JBL 2242H woofers vs forty eight 18Sound 18NLW9600s*
amps: four Crown Macrotech 3600s vs twelve unknown Class D amps
amp technology: "class I" vs "class D"
watts : 25,040 watts at 4ohms vs 48,000 watts
low frequency cut off : 65hz vs 28hz
Based on the data, it looks like the 'house' system at this club wouldn't be able to deliver the octave from 30hz to 60hz at all. And each of the JBL subs are potentially absorbing more watts than the individual drivers in the PK cabs, depending on how hard they push it. So that might explain the lack of bass at the Flux Pavilion show, and the hard midrange and treble.
The 'house' system was installed and designed by Cal Perkins, formerly of JBL and now at Mackie. The design seems like a solid one, but it's much better suited to rock and roll than dubstep IMHO. Here's a bit about Perkins:
""I started out doing sound contracting and live sound recording for Swanson Sound Service in the late '50s and early '60s. Cal Poly was foolish enough to give me a BSc and let me do a year of post-grad work in analogue design. During that time, I got a gig designing a low-frequency enclosure to go with JBL horns, which later became JBL's Pro Series of loudspeaker enclosures. After college I joined their Pro Sound division. Marantz eventually lured me away with some high-end design work during the '70s. Greg Mackie had interviewed me for a job with his company Tapco, but I wanted to live in Portland. I helped start a manufacturing division for North West, building the Anchor power monitors, and developed the first low-distortion, constant-directivity horn in 1977, which the Eagles used on tour."**
Specs on the house system here: Sound Specs Roseland Theater PDX
Specs on the woofers here: JBL 2242H 18" Maximum Output LF Driver 8 Ohm | 294-485
Specs on the amps here: http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/125113.pdf
Specs on the PK gear here: http://www.pksound.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CX800_Specsheets2013.pdf
* the PK system for the 2012 Excision tour was advertised as being 100,000 watts, but I recalled there were about 12 cabs per side, so the power rating of "100K" was likely aggregate across all speakers, or simply exaggerated.
** http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/nov96/mackieinterview.html
1) Much deeper bass than what you hear at most clubs and concerts
2) Very high SPL, but still clean.
This is what I heard at the Mothership tour and Excision's show in 2012 in Portland.
I've heard a lot of DJs and bands at that same venue in Portland, and when PK isn't there, the lowest octaves are absent and the sound seems a lot 'harder.' Basically it seems like they're trying to squeeze bass out of a cabinet that can't produce it, and in the process they're distorting the mid and the treble, which makes for an evening of ear-bleeding sound.
I'm a huge fan of Flux Pavilion, but his show in Portland, at the same venue, basically fit that description.
I did a little digging around, and managed to find the specs of the 'house PA'. Here's how it compares to the PK setup:
House System vs PK System (same venue, Portland's Roseland Theatre)
Subs: sixteen JBL 2242H woofers vs forty eight 18Sound 18NLW9600s*
amps: four Crown Macrotech 3600s vs twelve unknown Class D amps
amp technology: "class I" vs "class D"
watts : 25,040 watts at 4ohms vs 48,000 watts
low frequency cut off : 65hz vs 28hz
Based on the data, it looks like the 'house' system at this club wouldn't be able to deliver the octave from 30hz to 60hz at all. And each of the JBL subs are potentially absorbing more watts than the individual drivers in the PK cabs, depending on how hard they push it. So that might explain the lack of bass at the Flux Pavilion show, and the hard midrange and treble.
The 'house' system was installed and designed by Cal Perkins, formerly of JBL and now at Mackie. The design seems like a solid one, but it's much better suited to rock and roll than dubstep IMHO. Here's a bit about Perkins:
""I started out doing sound contracting and live sound recording for Swanson Sound Service in the late '50s and early '60s. Cal Poly was foolish enough to give me a BSc and let me do a year of post-grad work in analogue design. During that time, I got a gig designing a low-frequency enclosure to go with JBL horns, which later became JBL's Pro Series of loudspeaker enclosures. After college I joined their Pro Sound division. Marantz eventually lured me away with some high-end design work during the '70s. Greg Mackie had interviewed me for a job with his company Tapco, but I wanted to live in Portland. I helped start a manufacturing division for North West, building the Anchor power monitors, and developed the first low-distortion, constant-directivity horn in 1977, which the Eagles used on tour."**
Specs on the house system here: Sound Specs Roseland Theater PDX
Specs on the woofers here: JBL 2242H 18" Maximum Output LF Driver 8 Ohm | 294-485
Specs on the amps here: http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/amps/125113.pdf
Specs on the PK gear here: http://www.pksound.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/CX800_Specsheets2013.pdf
* the PK system for the 2012 Excision tour was advertised as being 100,000 watts, but I recalled there were about 12 cabs per side, so the power rating of "100K" was likely aggregate across all speakers, or simply exaggerated.
** http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/nov96/mackieinterview.html
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No question that sixteen JBL 2242H won't at all keep up to three times the drivers with nearly twice the Xmax, but I can't believe Cal Perkins would tune a 35 Hz FS 18" so high that it only has response to 65 Hz.
You must be thinking of the classic "Perkins Bins" frequency response, the Roseland Theater's tech specs don't mention frequency response.
Edit: Even the 4560, arguably Perkin's most widely known cabinet from the 1970's has response to around 45 Hz.
Attachments
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At the dubstep shows there it feels like the whole bottom octave is absent.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's a pic of their subs: four eighteens in a vented box. Their subs are the boxes facing inward, that measure about 4' x 4' with four eighteens and a slot vent across the top. From eyeballing it, I'd say that's about 27 cubic feet. Once you factor in the drivers and the wood, that's probably about five cubic feet per woofer.
According to my calculator, the 2242 in a four cubic foot vented box yields an F3 of 54hz.
^^ these ASH-6118s would be absolutely bad-*** in this venue. Same woofer, but in a front loaded horn. They have plenty of space for it.
Four of these cabs yield an F3 of 26hz - perfect for the type of shows that are their bread and butter. (dubstep, rap, electro, etc.)
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/ASH6118.pdf
dont blame it on the gear all the time... engineers can muck things up as well (and many of them hate dubstep/rap etc). I've been to plenty of shows where the FOH engineer sits through about 30 minutes of the show before he raises the hipass and cranks the compressor/limiter down and throws his earplugs in/starts reading a book lol.
yep!
The Ice nightclub in Las Vegas had a hundred thousand watt Funktion One system. Have been there a few times.
Here's a description:
"Where can you find an eclectic blend of hip-hip and 80s rock in one club? Ice is the word. This lounge is hot, despite it's cool name. Inside you'll find five bars and rooms, ample dance space, and a balcony overlooking the entire scene for taking a quick breather. The first room, of 4,000- square-feet with a cushioned Brazilian walnut dance floor also features the country's largest Funktion-One 100,000 watt sound-system."
I don't recall. It's been closed for close to a decade now. I have no idea why it's still boarded up, you'd think someone would take over the spot, but it's been empty for years.
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