I'm using a Benz L2 with mine (and a zyx r50 with the other). There is no loading in the conventional sense with the phonoclone. The things you need to match are R1 (match with the carts DC impedance) and R2 for the right gain.
The DC impedance is not the loading that you see quoted for other phonostages. Have a look at the spec for the benz in question and see what they specify. My L2 is 11R I think and I used a 10R for R1. Close enough is good enough I think.
I'll measure the height in mine later and report back. The caps I got from mouser (the 1000uF ones) are very slim and quite tall. By far the tallest things on the board. I'd say go ahead for the cases, you could always lie them on their side or something.
Fran
The DC impedance is not the loading that you see quoted for other phonostages. Have a look at the spec for the benz in question and see what they specify. My L2 is 11R I think and I used a 10R for R1. Close enough is good enough I think.
I'll measure the height in mine later and report back. The caps I got from mouser (the 1000uF ones) are very slim and quite tall. By far the tallest things on the board. I'd say go ahead for the cases, you could always lie them on their side or something.
Fran
this is waht i use:
cartridge R R
datasheet PhoneClone
ZYX 10-R 5R6 11
Frog 22R 22
DL-102 270R 240
DL-103 47R 47
DL-110 160R 240
Please note DL-102 (mono) and DL-110 are High Output there you have to adjust the gain to please your pre-amp. Does not effect the sound that much.
The internal impedance match does, but I am not able to detect differences when you are less then factor two off. On the other hand ZYX sound is less influenced in comparison with the DL-103. The Frog i did not experiment with yet.
I am very much interested in the PC3 concept. As I reported earlier different PSU set-ups have the biggest impact on the sound as far as I am concerned. I have listenend to small bateries virtual zero preregulated, small batteries, big batteries, 15VA straight, 15A preregulated, 80VA preregulated. The first is the worst sounding and the last the best sounding. IMHO impact on sound of the PSU is bigger then cap selection (I have tried oil, mica and PP)
I have almost finished a dual mono 2*15VA and now the PC3 when the boards arrive.
I also have a Lehman black cube, very nice sound but PRAT and detail are better with the PC's.
Regards,
Michiel
cartridge R R
datasheet PhoneClone
ZYX 10-R 5R6 11
Frog 22R 22
DL-102 270R 240
DL-103 47R 47
DL-110 160R 240
Please note DL-102 (mono) and DL-110 are High Output there you have to adjust the gain to please your pre-amp. Does not effect the sound that much.
The internal impedance match does, but I am not able to detect differences when you are less then factor two off. On the other hand ZYX sound is less influenced in comparison with the DL-103. The Frog i did not experiment with yet.
I am very much interested in the PC3 concept. As I reported earlier different PSU set-ups have the biggest impact on the sound as far as I am concerned. I have listenend to small bateries virtual zero preregulated, small batteries, big batteries, 15VA straight, 15A preregulated, 80VA preregulated. The first is the worst sounding and the last the best sounding. IMHO impact on sound of the PSU is bigger then cap selection (I have tried oil, mica and PP)
I have almost finished a dual mono 2*15VA and now the PC3 when the boards arrive.
I also have a Lehman black cube, very nice sound but PRAT and detail are better with the PC's.
Regards,
Michiel
More noise data. It's boring, but I wanted to double check everything.
- Powered, the output noise of the phonoclone is clean and falls into the measurement noise floor above 25 kHz.
- Track 1 is Nights on Broadway. Everywhere on that track measures the same, and I've repeated the measurement on several occasions: high frequency content is 20 dB more than typical. Another track on the same side of the album, labeled Track 2, shows "normal" behavior, with little content above 25 kHz, pretty much just the record noise. Track 3, from another album, confirms this result. Conlclusion: My analog rig is well-behaved at ultrasonic frequencies, Track 1 is an anomaly.
- Record noise varies according to the quality of the record surface, but the result shown is fairly typical for a moderately noisy LP. In every case where I've measured it, it's well above the noise of the phonoclone.
- Powered, the output noise of the phonoclone is clean and falls into the measurement noise floor above 25 kHz.
- Track 1 is Nights on Broadway. Everywhere on that track measures the same, and I've repeated the measurement on several occasions: high frequency content is 20 dB more than typical. Another track on the same side of the album, labeled Track 2, shows "normal" behavior, with little content above 25 kHz, pretty much just the record noise. Track 3, from another album, confirms this result. Conlclusion: My analog rig is well-behaved at ultrasonic frequencies, Track 1 is an anomaly.
- Record noise varies according to the quality of the record surface, but the result shown is fairly typical for a moderately noisy LP. In every case where I've measured it, it's well above the noise of the phonoclone.
Attachments
OK fitting it in the case:
Total height when using 12mm standoffs is 48mm. Those 1000uF caps are about 8mm higher than anything else on the board so if you lay them on their side a bit and used 6mm standoffs you would fit it into a case under 40mm high.
My cases are simple alu ones, with wooden side cheeks. Very simple to build and well, I think they look passable:
Fran
Total height when using 12mm standoffs is 48mm. Those 1000uF caps are about 8mm higher than anything else on the board so if you lay them on their side a bit and used 6mm standoffs you would fit it into a case under 40mm high.
My cases are simple alu ones, with wooden side cheeks. Very simple to build and well, I think they look passable:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Fran
PSU in one and the phonoclone in the other. Dual mono all the way.
***********************
Richard: That last track you burned.... the handel one. I'm listening to it now as I type through the headphones and it sounds excellent. I'm burning it to a CD to play on the main system downstairs.
P3 seems pretty stable over the last few days. I'm going to throw on some more difficult material tonight and see what it makes of it. Will report more later.
Fran
***********************
Richard: That last track you burned.... the handel one. I'm listening to it now as I type through the headphones and it sounds excellent. I'm burning it to a CD to play on the main system downstairs.
P3 seems pretty stable over the last few days. I'm going to throw on some more difficult material tonight and see what it makes of it. Will report more later.
Fran
Mine has settled down too. I'm also getting more familiar with the recording chain and the differences between analog, 1644 and 2496.
Here's a track most people should be familiar with:
Dave Brubeck Kathy's Waltz 44kHz 3dB.wav
Dave Brubeck Kathy's Waltz 96kHz 3dB sample.wav
This track seems to benefit from the extra resolution of 2496 more than the others so far. The sound is distinctly "boxy" at 1644. At 2496 it really sings. The hard truth is there already seems to be a low pass filter applied to the recording - the step at 20 kHz in the plot below - so it's not like there is any high frequency content being lost. It still sounds a lot better though.
Here's a track most people should be familiar with:
Dave Brubeck Kathy's Waltz 44kHz 3dB.wav
Dave Brubeck Kathy's Waltz 96kHz 3dB sample.wav
This track seems to benefit from the extra resolution of 2496 more than the others so far. The sound is distinctly "boxy" at 1644. At 2496 it really sings. The hard truth is there already seems to be a low pass filter applied to the recording - the step at 20 kHz in the plot below - so it's not like there is any high frequency content being lost. It still sounds a lot better though.
Attachments
rjm said:
Hi rjm,
Nice work
What are you using to measure? I have just recently finished a phono preamp of my own design and I've gone through much and many board revisions to reduce noise. I'm using Adobe Audition to do the recording measurements.
Attached below are the results for mine. The preamp is connected to my computer sound card line in (X-Fi Xtreme). The record level in the Windows volume control panel is set to about 60% for all three tests. Bottom traces are recorded noise with the preamp connected but not powered. Middle traces are with the preamp powered and the inputs shorted.
The top trace is with a record track playing ( "Chiquitita" by ABBA of all things
). I don't have a good reference for these measurements, nothing to compare until I saw yours posted. I'm encouraged to see that I'm on the right track.
Attachments
Yes, that Handel track sounds very good indeed. Very clear and not a hint of harshness. Very moreish!
*********************
So to broaden the listening a bit, I wanted to throw some stuff at the P3 that would be a little bit harder on it. Busier music - cos lets face it, it would have to be a really bad phonostage to make some of those Verve recordings sound bad.
So first up was:
kings of leon - aha shake heartbreak
Absolutely brilliant album. You ain't ever going to figure out what the lyrics are but it drives along. On vinyl this is a bit better than on CD, where it does suffer a bit from compression.
Then:
Tom Waits - Swordfishtrombones
This is the album that defines "a lot going on"!
Also:
Neville Brothers - Yellow Moon
excellent recording very spacey atmospheric
And
richard and Linda Thompson - shoot out the lights
This is a brilliant album - the title track which opens side 2 is just amazing. It is an album though that is an nightmare on record players though, the slightest bit of wow is really noticeable - and even when you don't have any, it makes you doubt your player!
***********************
So enough of the nice pictures, how do they sound? Well uniformly excellent! I was really surprised. The one I was most surprised at was the Tom Waits album. This is very busy, he had started to make a lot of strange percussion instruments and many of the tracks here employ them. On a lesser phonostage (and to be honest on the earlier phonoclones) this album can be hard to listen to. It can be "noisy" I think, clamorous. That seems to be gone with the P3. Instead you have enormous dynamics that makes those drums and percussion jump out and come to life. If you have built a P3 you should drop the needle on this LP and give your P3 a test drive.
Shoot out the Lights came in as the second most impressive improvement. Have a listen to a sample of this track somewhere - I'm sure you can have a preview somewhere on the web. The whole album kinda tends towards being hard. That is still there with the P3 but it is much more listenable. Probably in reviewer babble (of course thats what this is isn't it?) what you are getting is all the extra detail but as true detail retrieval rather than an unnatural brightness which initally appears as detail but becomes fatiguing very quickly.
Yellow Moon has always sounded good to me. Its a fairly quiet recording - I always have to turn up the pre a bit to match the level of whatever was on before. What I noticed with this one though is an increase in soundstage width and depth. Good example is the ballad of hollis brown - that guitar as the song builds is waaaayay off back there in the next room, not just layered behind Aaron Nevilles vocal.
Lastly I had to thrown on KoL - I love this album - seems to be what rock is meant to be. Drives along with great energy and pace. Sounds a bit softer on vinyl, darker than the CD release I think. Sounds great.
So as far as I can see the P3 acquitted itself excellently on all this stuff. Now undoubtedly the pressings, arm cart, TT and so on all make a difference, but all of the above sounded great. Definitely a step up from the prevous phonoclone. I was a tinge worried about the extra detail I was getting - and the extra dynamic. This was partly having put back in C12 and 13 which RJM had noticed did give that extra punchiness,but also made it a bit fatiguing. I was worried that really all I had listened to was "the good stuff" - you know the stuff that always sounds good. So I wanted to put on a programme that would deliberately fatigue you! The P3 passed with flying colours. C12 and C13 will be staying I think.
My next step is to get some other ears over here to have a listen. Maybe even try and get some really well regarded commercial phonostages over here to have a listen to compare. I don't think the P3 has anything to fear. At all. Period.
I'm sold on it.
Fran
Ps the replay chain: Benz L2>rega RB300 cardas wired, technoweight>DIY Teres 340 with a 265 platter>P3>24V aikido pre>Pass mini aleph which I have biased the hell out of>Quad ESL57
*********************
So to broaden the listening a bit, I wanted to throw some stuff at the P3 that would be a little bit harder on it. Busier music - cos lets face it, it would have to be a really bad phonostage to make some of those Verve recordings sound bad.
So first up was:
kings of leon - aha shake heartbreak
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Absolutely brilliant album. You ain't ever going to figure out what the lyrics are but it drives along. On vinyl this is a bit better than on CD, where it does suffer a bit from compression.
Then:
Tom Waits - Swordfishtrombones
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is the album that defines "a lot going on"!
Also:
Neville Brothers - Yellow Moon
excellent recording very spacey atmospheric
And
richard and Linda Thompson - shoot out the lights
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is a brilliant album - the title track which opens side 2 is just amazing. It is an album though that is an nightmare on record players though, the slightest bit of wow is really noticeable - and even when you don't have any, it makes you doubt your player!
***********************
So enough of the nice pictures, how do they sound? Well uniformly excellent! I was really surprised. The one I was most surprised at was the Tom Waits album. This is very busy, he had started to make a lot of strange percussion instruments and many of the tracks here employ them. On a lesser phonostage (and to be honest on the earlier phonoclones) this album can be hard to listen to. It can be "noisy" I think, clamorous. That seems to be gone with the P3. Instead you have enormous dynamics that makes those drums and percussion jump out and come to life. If you have built a P3 you should drop the needle on this LP and give your P3 a test drive.
Shoot out the Lights came in as the second most impressive improvement. Have a listen to a sample of this track somewhere - I'm sure you can have a preview somewhere on the web. The whole album kinda tends towards being hard. That is still there with the P3 but it is much more listenable. Probably in reviewer babble (of course thats what this is isn't it?) what you are getting is all the extra detail but as true detail retrieval rather than an unnatural brightness which initally appears as detail but becomes fatiguing very quickly.
Yellow Moon has always sounded good to me. Its a fairly quiet recording - I always have to turn up the pre a bit to match the level of whatever was on before. What I noticed with this one though is an increase in soundstage width and depth. Good example is the ballad of hollis brown - that guitar as the song builds is waaaayay off back there in the next room, not just layered behind Aaron Nevilles vocal.
Lastly I had to thrown on KoL - I love this album - seems to be what rock is meant to be. Drives along with great energy and pace. Sounds a bit softer on vinyl, darker than the CD release I think. Sounds great.
So as far as I can see the P3 acquitted itself excellently on all this stuff. Now undoubtedly the pressings, arm cart, TT and so on all make a difference, but all of the above sounded great. Definitely a step up from the prevous phonoclone. I was a tinge worried about the extra detail I was getting - and the extra dynamic. This was partly having put back in C12 and 13 which RJM had noticed did give that extra punchiness,but also made it a bit fatiguing. I was worried that really all I had listened to was "the good stuff" - you know the stuff that always sounds good. So I wanted to put on a programme that would deliberately fatigue you! The P3 passed with flying colours. C12 and C13 will be staying I think.
My next step is to get some other ears over here to have a listen. Maybe even try and get some really well regarded commercial phonostages over here to have a listen to compare. I don't think the P3 has anything to fear. At all. Period.
I'm sold on it.
Fran
Ps the replay chain: Benz L2>rega RB300 cardas wired, technoweight>DIY Teres 340 with a 265 platter>P3>24V aikido pre>Pass mini aleph which I have biased the hell out of>Quad ESL57
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