Thanks for this
Very interesting read, and the proof that I did it right
Yaqin MS12B preamplifier - Modification
K73-16 94.5 points
Jantzen Superior Z-cap 86 points
Mundorf MCap MKP Audiophiler 82.5 points
@samoloko, I'm very pleased with them in signal path on my tube preamp, where value of 1uF/275V has been replaced with those of 1uF/400V.
Don't know exactly what do you mean by sound improvement if the value is higher in voltage? The higher value the more voltage cap can sustain. I simply followed the rule, or didn't go with mine lower than 200V.
Don't know exactly what do you mean by sound improvement if the value is higher in voltage? The higher value the more voltage cap can sustain. I simply followed the rule, or didn't go with mine lower than 200V.
Please refer to my post about the mod here for more info
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...n-ms-12b-phono-amp-reviews-8.html#post3154771
and no, not used as coupling caps.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...n-ms-12b-phono-amp-reviews-8.html#post3154771
and no, not used as coupling caps.
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I have to agree with Audiojoy completely, these caps are an absolute steal.
I bought a Bada PH32 hybrid power amp (they are no longer available) about 4 years after buying the PH12 h/amp. Due to badly damaging my back a few years ago, I never got around to modding the power amp until this year.
First thing I did was shunt the Alps blue with Z foils. I was already convinced that the Bada power amp was better designed than the h/amp. I could'nt wait to get rid of the Solen coupling caps - I tried my de Graaf silver foils which were good but replacing a 1 uF cap for a .47uF cap did'nt work in the power amp where it had in the h/amp. Then tried a 1uF Dynamicap - the sound was more dynamic but in an unreal way.
Then tried a 'space special' 1uF Russian polystyrene - this was much better but lacked somemotion and dynamics but the best so far.
Decided it was time to remove the 0.1uF cap that was fed by the driver valve - a 6F8G Tung Sol RP with a 0.1uF PETP 73-16 cap - it was one of those rare moments when you know you have cracked it!
From the get-go this little cap was simply amazing - it transformed the hybrid amp into something special - firstly it showed just how good the Tung Sol RP was - full of emotion, drive and dynamics, detail in spades, bass full-on only held back by crap o/put Solens. It also showed just how well the Chinese had designed this amp.
I have to award these caps with the highest order of The Dog's Bollocks - yes Audiojoy was spot on, these PETP caps favour slightly the top end and 'bright' is the best way to descibe their top-end performance but in no way can it they be descibed as harsh.
I was ready to change a lot of the caps and resistors in the Bada but now I can see that only the Solens and some signal path resistors need changing.
It still feels incredible that changing one small (but important) cap should transform the whole amp into something special. If I thought I could use 3.3uF/160V PETP caps for those awful 3uF/250 Solens I would - hell I think I will take a chance anyway.
I think they could transform many a phono stage as well - at the prices you would be crazy not to try them - buy with confidence.
I bought a Bada PH32 hybrid power amp (they are no longer available) about 4 years after buying the PH12 h/amp. Due to badly damaging my back a few years ago, I never got around to modding the power amp until this year.
First thing I did was shunt the Alps blue with Z foils. I was already convinced that the Bada power amp was better designed than the h/amp. I could'nt wait to get rid of the Solen coupling caps - I tried my de Graaf silver foils which were good but replacing a 1 uF cap for a .47uF cap did'nt work in the power amp where it had in the h/amp. Then tried a 1uF Dynamicap - the sound was more dynamic but in an unreal way.
Then tried a 'space special' 1uF Russian polystyrene - this was much better but lacked somemotion and dynamics but the best so far.
Decided it was time to remove the 0.1uF cap that was fed by the driver valve - a 6F8G Tung Sol RP with a 0.1uF PETP 73-16 cap - it was one of those rare moments when you know you have cracked it!
From the get-go this little cap was simply amazing - it transformed the hybrid amp into something special - firstly it showed just how good the Tung Sol RP was - full of emotion, drive and dynamics, detail in spades, bass full-on only held back by crap o/put Solens. It also showed just how well the Chinese had designed this amp.
I have to award these caps with the highest order of The Dog's Bollocks - yes Audiojoy was spot on, these PETP caps favour slightly the top end and 'bright' is the best way to descibe their top-end performance but in no way can it they be descibed as harsh.
I was ready to change a lot of the caps and resistors in the Bada but now I can see that only the Solens and some signal path resistors need changing.
It still feels incredible that changing one small (but important) cap should transform the whole amp into something special. If I thought I could use 3.3uF/160V PETP caps for those awful 3uF/250 Solens I would - hell I think I will take a chance anyway.
I think they could transform many a phono stage as well - at the prices you would be crazy not to try them - buy with confidence.
PreSapian,
I too find these caps to be bright/glare at the top end as well - it's the only fault I can find. Your using them in a x/over, I'm using one (a 0.1uF/250V K73-16) as first cap taking it's feed from the driver tube (6F8G Tung Sol RP) in the pre-amp section of a hybrid amp.
It's significant that this 'glare' is worse using a vinyl source than CDP which of course has a brick wall filter. My phono stage, a Talk Audio MC3, does'nt use the normal roll-off filter at 20Hz since the manufacturer reckons that this induces phase shifts.
This little cap, 8mm x 20mm flies in the face of accepted wisdom - bigger is better - really! It transforms everything, I still find it hard to believe that the Wima MKP cap was so bad and literally sat on the whole system and this little bugger opens the whole thing up.
Examining the cap I find that the legs are tinned copper unlike a lot of Russian caps that have steel legs - so that's not the source of the glare. They are extremely well made and I reckon they are a late model - does anyone know when the Russians started making these. Peter the Dane/AudioNote is a very canny man, I've had a couple of run-ins with him - he sees the trends and gets in first. I'll bet he bought some of these PETPs years ago - essentially his super expensive caps are PETPs and I have never heard anyone say that his Mylar caps are have a bright glaring top-end.
I can't understand why the Russian engineers who made these caps hav'nt done a re-nag and designed out this glare because if they did they would wipe out a lot of western companies making uber expensive caps in no time at all.
I need to investigate whether shunting the Alps Blue with Z foils contributes to this brightness/glare: lowering the gain in my phono stage, because they let far more energy through than those awful Wima MKP 10s: next cap after the 0.1uF is a 1uF coupling cap, maybe I can use a Polystyrene 0.1uf and a PETP 1uF instead. Also a possibility is damping the metal case with various materials including Teflon plumbers tape/BluTak etc. - whatever this cap is definately worth persevering with.
On another thread a mod has posted links to the Jung/Marsh article on caps from 1980 - at the end of the article it says that changing particular caps can dramatically alter/improve the sound of equipment - how ironic that it should be a Mylar cap that the article says is the worst of all caps.
I too find these caps to be bright/glare at the top end as well - it's the only fault I can find. Your using them in a x/over, I'm using one (a 0.1uF/250V K73-16) as first cap taking it's feed from the driver tube (6F8G Tung Sol RP) in the pre-amp section of a hybrid amp.
It's significant that this 'glare' is worse using a vinyl source than CDP which of course has a brick wall filter. My phono stage, a Talk Audio MC3, does'nt use the normal roll-off filter at 20Hz since the manufacturer reckons that this induces phase shifts.
This little cap, 8mm x 20mm flies in the face of accepted wisdom - bigger is better - really! It transforms everything, I still find it hard to believe that the Wima MKP cap was so bad and literally sat on the whole system and this little bugger opens the whole thing up.
Examining the cap I find that the legs are tinned copper unlike a lot of Russian caps that have steel legs - so that's not the source of the glare. They are extremely well made and I reckon they are a late model - does anyone know when the Russians started making these. Peter the Dane/AudioNote is a very canny man, I've had a couple of run-ins with him - he sees the trends and gets in first. I'll bet he bought some of these PETPs years ago - essentially his super expensive caps are PETPs and I have never heard anyone say that his Mylar caps are have a bright glaring top-end.
I can't understand why the Russian engineers who made these caps hav'nt done a re-nag and designed out this glare because if they did they would wipe out a lot of western companies making uber expensive caps in no time at all.
I need to investigate whether shunting the Alps Blue with Z foils contributes to this brightness/glare: lowering the gain in my phono stage, because they let far more energy through than those awful Wima MKP 10s: next cap after the 0.1uF is a 1uF coupling cap, maybe I can use a Polystyrene 0.1uf and a PETP 1uF instead. Also a possibility is damping the metal case with various materials including Teflon plumbers tape/BluTak etc. - whatever this cap is definately worth persevering with.
On another thread a mod has posted links to the Jung/Marsh article on caps from 1980 - at the end of the article it says that changing particular caps can dramatically alter/improve the sound of equipment - how ironic that it should be a Mylar cap that the article says is the worst of all caps.
Mylar is polyester. Polyester is known to be a slightly non-linear dielectric. OK in most cases but not a good idea to use it for the cap which sets the LF rolloff as it then will, by design, have signal voltage across it and so could create distortion. People who prefer Mylar or other polyester caps may be expressing a preference for a little low order distortion with their music. This may be why polyester caps are particularly popular in old guitar amps, so much so that it has driven up the price of old perfectly ordinary caps such as Mullard mustards.
Apparent changes in sound after a few hours of use are probably due to acclimatisation. That is, ears/brains getting used to the sound. This happens all the time. It is why we can endure the awful lumpy frequency response of a typical loudspeaker/room setup, and why we don't usually notice the huge change in frequency response when we move our head a little.
Apparent changes in sound after a few hours of use are probably due to acclimatisation. That is, ears/brains getting used to the sound. This happens all the time. It is why we can endure the awful lumpy frequency response of a typical loudspeaker/room setup, and why we don't usually notice the huge change in frequency response when we move our head a little.
Almost any normal decent commercial/industrial quality cap can make a mockery of some overpriced rubbish. In some cases because, allegedly, the expensive stuff is just a pretty case around a normal cap. In other cases the expensive stuff is markedly inferior to normal stuff, because it is 'hand-made' or poorly designed by someone who knows more about retail economics than component engineering.
Sorry for butting in on your capfest, but I thought people ought to be told why Mylar/polyester might sound different.
Sorry for butting in on your capfest, but I thought people ought to be told why Mylar/polyester might sound different.
Mach 1,
thanks for your comments about burn in time and that with use they become neutral - for some years now that has been my goal - neutrality does'nt mean bland it means letting the music through. It's going to be some time before I become blase about these caps.
Good news on the glare front - it's gone. I decided the easiest change to make was to lower the gain by 3 dB in the phono stage and it worked. Which leaves a brightly lit sound stage, I always have a laugh when I hear 'the music comes from an inky background - when the hell did anyone hear live music coming from a dark, inky background. I can only remember one concert in a technically correct acoustic environment and that was the Congressbouw in Den Haag in 1980 - Weather Report. It was a completely soulless evening - I can't remember another with any genre of music.
Looking at other threads about removing the outer shells of some Russian Teflons gave me an idea - instead of removing the outer casing of these PETPs why not just damp the casing like many of us do with a chassis? It's worth a try and is reversible if the result is negative or neutral in effect. I should say that I use AFC (active fan cooling) so values don't drift as they can and do with innefective passive cooling.
DF96 - reading your posts, they all seem to be theoretical statements which have zero value to anyone in the real world - remember what the fatman said "all theory must come from practice to have any real value".
Have you actually used these caps, I doubt it. There is no distortion using these caps in the signal path, indeed quite the opposite - I have played LPs that I know from decades of listening and only last night played Joni Mitchell's 'Shadows and Light' so much previously masked/hidden details emerging, the guitars sounded just like they should (it's a live recording) piano deep with notes going on and on.
DF96 you need to drop the theory posture and try actually using empirical research to justify what you say. Virtually all those who have tried these caps have been impressed. Pre-Sapian found them to be really bright and glaring - he did'nt make that statement from theory but from practice and so must be treated with respect, indeed he may be making others think carefully about using them in x/overs - that's what I call useful input.
Now here's the thing - I shall try using a polystyrene for the 0.1uF position and a 1uF/250V 1% PETP for the main coupling cap. I may just shell out for a pair of 0.1uF V caps - they are not too expensive at that value but only if I'm not satisfied with other combos. I shell out for Z foil Rs because they disappear and cannot tolerate the awful muddy sound that supposedly quality boutique resistors create - these PETP caps do the same but a damn sight cheaper - I repeat buy with confidence.
thanks for your comments about burn in time and that with use they become neutral - for some years now that has been my goal - neutrality does'nt mean bland it means letting the music through. It's going to be some time before I become blase about these caps.
Good news on the glare front - it's gone. I decided the easiest change to make was to lower the gain by 3 dB in the phono stage and it worked. Which leaves a brightly lit sound stage, I always have a laugh when I hear 'the music comes from an inky background - when the hell did anyone hear live music coming from a dark, inky background. I can only remember one concert in a technically correct acoustic environment and that was the Congressbouw in Den Haag in 1980 - Weather Report. It was a completely soulless evening - I can't remember another with any genre of music.
Looking at other threads about removing the outer shells of some Russian Teflons gave me an idea - instead of removing the outer casing of these PETPs why not just damp the casing like many of us do with a chassis? It's worth a try and is reversible if the result is negative or neutral in effect. I should say that I use AFC (active fan cooling) so values don't drift as they can and do with innefective passive cooling.
DF96 - reading your posts, they all seem to be theoretical statements which have zero value to anyone in the real world - remember what the fatman said "all theory must come from practice to have any real value".
Have you actually used these caps, I doubt it. There is no distortion using these caps in the signal path, indeed quite the opposite - I have played LPs that I know from decades of listening and only last night played Joni Mitchell's 'Shadows and Light' so much previously masked/hidden details emerging, the guitars sounded just like they should (it's a live recording) piano deep with notes going on and on.
DF96 you need to drop the theory posture and try actually using empirical research to justify what you say. Virtually all those who have tried these caps have been impressed. Pre-Sapian found them to be really bright and glaring - he did'nt make that statement from theory but from practice and so must be treated with respect, indeed he may be making others think carefully about using them in x/overs - that's what I call useful input.
Now here's the thing - I shall try using a polystyrene for the 0.1uF position and a 1uF/250V 1% PETP for the main coupling cap. I may just shell out for a pair of 0.1uF V caps - they are not too expensive at that value but only if I'm not satisfied with other combos. I shell out for Z foil Rs because they disappear and cannot tolerate the awful muddy sound that supposedly quality boutique resistors create - these PETP caps do the same but a damn sight cheaper - I repeat buy with confidence.
no, hes not speaking from theory and I dont think he was talking about massive audible distortion. You think there is no distortion because you cant hear it over the fan? PET is not a very linear dielectric, that is not theory, but fact. He does not have to use this specific PETP cap to know that. that old comeback to throw at anyone making criticism of something that they have to have heard that specific brand generic part is pretty tired.
who said 'all theory must come from practice to have any real value'? whoever it was didnt have a very good command of the English language.
its funny when people simply will not accept that what they like about something is the low order distortion profile/distribution. There is zero shame in it, we are in this for the enjoyment right? Nelson Pass and that gang have no problem admitting it, thinking that there is a special 'harmonic transparency' is delusion
what Empirical research have you been doing?
who said 'all theory must come from practice to have any real value'? whoever it was didnt have a very good command of the English language.
its funny when people simply will not accept that what they like about something is the low order distortion profile/distribution. There is zero shame in it, we are in this for the enjoyment right? Nelson Pass and that gang have no problem admitting it, thinking that there is a special 'harmonic transparency' is delusion
what Empirical research have you been doing?
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qusp,
your post is neither honest nor rational. You fail to mention that you have never tried these caps so your comments have no value. You also query the self evident fact that unproven theory has only one advantage over a fart - it does'nt smell but it does make you look silly does'nt it.
You also fail to mention that you have spent loads of money on Dueland and other exotic boutique capacitors in the past (see your boasting over the same on Head-fi), so here is a cap that proves you have been a real chump to spend serious money.
So ' you don't have to listen to a part to know how it sounds' - hilarious but somehow sad at the same time.
To make a statement about fan cooling and in particular my amp and it's method of fan cooling which you state is noisy are the words of someone who has serious problems dealing with the real (not imaginary) world - you have never heard my amp - do you not see how ridiculous you are? I don't know why the mods hav'nt stepped in to deal with you.
To the rest of the posters who have contributed rationally to this thread - I now cannot agree with one comment by the OP - that there is little difference between the Russian PETP caps.
I tried the 1uF/250V 1% K73P4 and found that it did a good job at sitting on the 0.1uF cap that preceeded it, it may well be better in another system but I doubt it.
I bought 4 x of the K73-16 1uF250V +/- 10% I like to match as accurately as possible coupling caps, so I measured these - 0.960/0.961/0.967/0.932.
I've only had about 10 hours using the K73-16 0.1uF & 1uF - I use the Alps Blue that came with my hybrid amp but I shunt it with Z foils. This means I get a drop of about 6dB. This would'nt normally be a problem but I get about 3-4W of class A and my speakers (Heybrook Sextets MK1V) are only 89dB.
So yesterday I decided to up the gain by 3dB in my phono stage - wow, the brightness/sheen/glare has gone completely (it did'nt take 100 hours). I can't accept that making a small change to the gain is responsible for removing the one niggle I had with these caps, whatever it's gone.
We all have our favourite LPs/CDs to test any change with. One of my favourites is the ECM - Making Music with Zakir Hussain/Hariprasad Chaurasia/J McLaughlin and J Gabarek - beautifully recorded, ECM had the nack of putting you alongside the recording engineer. If you have a bright system this recording will throw it right back at you.
When I first played this using just the one 01uF PETP cap - it was so euphonic, nice but not accurate and Jans' sax came at me but this time it sounded incredible from top to bottom. Playing Sara Mclaughlin's Surfacing - well I have never heard her sound so real. Hariprasad's flute - magical emotion.
I'm sick and tired of all this rubbish about 'black backgrounds' totally false, nothing like real world music. They are a bigger revelation than Z foils for me (Caddocks do the same for others). They just let the music through. So much is lost with crappy signal path caps - these let you hear real dynamics, depth, detail, bass and a top end that taper's away into infinity. OTT comments - for a few dollars you can find out if I and the others on this thread are away with the fairies (certainly one poster needs to pull his neck in).
After a few weeks I still find it hard to accept the outrageous difference these PETP caps have made to my whole system - from a grudging acceptance that my AT33V and MC3 phono stage are OK to being as happy as Larry and even more astounding that that first little 0.1uF cap could so transform a Chinese hybrid amp into something that is definately streets ahead of a heavily modded KT88 amp and indeed I can see now that apart from getting rid of those awful Solen o/put caps and tweeking the PSU - that's it.
Now if only I could find a pair of 0.0022uF PETP to use as load caps in my phono stage - hell that's too greedy, I'll settle for this.
your post is neither honest nor rational. You fail to mention that you have never tried these caps so your comments have no value. You also query the self evident fact that unproven theory has only one advantage over a fart - it does'nt smell but it does make you look silly does'nt it.
You also fail to mention that you have spent loads of money on Dueland and other exotic boutique capacitors in the past (see your boasting over the same on Head-fi), so here is a cap that proves you have been a real chump to spend serious money.
So ' you don't have to listen to a part to know how it sounds' - hilarious but somehow sad at the same time.
To make a statement about fan cooling and in particular my amp and it's method of fan cooling which you state is noisy are the words of someone who has serious problems dealing with the real (not imaginary) world - you have never heard my amp - do you not see how ridiculous you are? I don't know why the mods hav'nt stepped in to deal with you.
To the rest of the posters who have contributed rationally to this thread - I now cannot agree with one comment by the OP - that there is little difference between the Russian PETP caps.
I tried the 1uF/250V 1% K73P4 and found that it did a good job at sitting on the 0.1uF cap that preceeded it, it may well be better in another system but I doubt it.
I bought 4 x of the K73-16 1uF250V +/- 10% I like to match as accurately as possible coupling caps, so I measured these - 0.960/0.961/0.967/0.932.
I've only had about 10 hours using the K73-16 0.1uF & 1uF - I use the Alps Blue that came with my hybrid amp but I shunt it with Z foils. This means I get a drop of about 6dB. This would'nt normally be a problem but I get about 3-4W of class A and my speakers (Heybrook Sextets MK1V) are only 89dB.
So yesterday I decided to up the gain by 3dB in my phono stage - wow, the brightness/sheen/glare has gone completely (it did'nt take 100 hours). I can't accept that making a small change to the gain is responsible for removing the one niggle I had with these caps, whatever it's gone.
We all have our favourite LPs/CDs to test any change with. One of my favourites is the ECM - Making Music with Zakir Hussain/Hariprasad Chaurasia/J McLaughlin and J Gabarek - beautifully recorded, ECM had the nack of putting you alongside the recording engineer. If you have a bright system this recording will throw it right back at you.
When I first played this using just the one 01uF PETP cap - it was so euphonic, nice but not accurate and Jans' sax came at me but this time it sounded incredible from top to bottom. Playing Sara Mclaughlin's Surfacing - well I have never heard her sound so real. Hariprasad's flute - magical emotion.
I'm sick and tired of all this rubbish about 'black backgrounds' totally false, nothing like real world music. They are a bigger revelation than Z foils for me (Caddocks do the same for others). They just let the music through. So much is lost with crappy signal path caps - these let you hear real dynamics, depth, detail, bass and a top end that taper's away into infinity. OTT comments - for a few dollars you can find out if I and the others on this thread are away with the fairies (certainly one poster needs to pull his neck in).
After a few weeks I still find it hard to accept the outrageous difference these PETP caps have made to my whole system - from a grudging acceptance that my AT33V and MC3 phono stage are OK to being as happy as Larry and even more astounding that that first little 0.1uF cap could so transform a Chinese hybrid amp into something that is definately streets ahead of a heavily modded KT88 amp and indeed I can see now that apart from getting rid of those awful Solen o/put caps and tweeking the PSU - that's it.
Now if only I could find a pair of 0.0022uF PETP to use as load caps in my phono stage - hell that's too greedy, I'll settle for this.
the above references I find easy to read.
I can read 2n2F far easier than reading 0.0022uF. I have to count back through the zeros.
People who think knowledge is unhelpful have to get by with ignorance instead.Black Stuart said:
One of the things which makes us humans different from animals is that we can learn from each other via things like writing and reading. That saves us all from having to experience everything we need to know about. The theoretical knowledge that I should not step in front of a moving vehicle has stood me in good stead for many years. I guess if I lived in the 'real world' I would have to try it for myself just to see what happens.
Regardless of the make and brand and dielectric etc, try to NOT use metallized film in a speaker cross-over for the bass or bass-mid cross-over caps. The solid foil type are needed for thier higher current capacity to remain stable in performance. But you do have to use higher voltage rated ones if they are film/foil type. Use at least 2X power amp supply rail voltage.
Thx-RNMarsh
Thx-RNMarsh
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