Also I'd like to add for purposes of discussion in the thread:
I do have a bag of these PETP sitting directly next to me as I type. So, I am in the camp of "those who listen".
I'm using them in a tube phono preamplifier I am building and I have used these to excellent effect. I have used much more expensive capacitors of much more electrically "superior" dielectrics and I could not discern notable improvement.
Actually, I heard a discernible reduction in quality using extremely large high quality capacitors (Audyn, mundorfs) which I believe relates to parasitic capacitance of large capacitors in tube stages. This topic is covered in depth elsewhere.
Perhaps the benefit of these caps you are hearing is something as mundane as their size.
Whether that has to do with the design of the circuit, the caps themselves, the stability of the dielectric in this precise use case.... I would not be to presumptuous to claim that I know.
Mica caps claim an inferior DA but I've used them with excellent results.
Without conclusive evidence in any direction my experience is more shuffling around in the dark and poking around with a stick to guide myself.
However, you have to start somewhere.
I do have a bag of these PETP sitting directly next to me as I type. So, I am in the camp of "those who listen".
I'm using them in a tube phono preamplifier I am building and I have used these to excellent effect. I have used much more expensive capacitors of much more electrically "superior" dielectrics and I could not discern notable improvement.
Actually, I heard a discernible reduction in quality using extremely large high quality capacitors (Audyn, mundorfs) which I believe relates to parasitic capacitance of large capacitors in tube stages. This topic is covered in depth elsewhere.
Perhaps the benefit of these caps you are hearing is something as mundane as their size.
Whether that has to do with the design of the circuit, the caps themselves, the stability of the dielectric in this precise use case.... I would not be to presumptuous to claim that I know.
Mica caps claim an inferior DA but I've used them with excellent results.
Without conclusive evidence in any direction my experience is more shuffling around in the dark and poking around with a stick to guide myself.
However, you have to start somewhere.
Oftentimes is the operative word, however I'm not in disagreement with you.
The most audible diy tweak I've found to date are benzodiazepines, especially before forum browsing or placing parts connexion orders.
Really smooths out that high frequency metallic chatter for a more enjoyable response curve.
I've saved about 2M to date using this low cost diy method. Everyone should give it a try and report back.
I wholeheartedly volunteer to compile and plot the results.
i am never swayed by what i read about "this cap" and "that cap".
to me a cap has a job to do in a circuit, period....
so it does not matter to me if 1000 people say "this cap" and "that cap" sounds good, i just do not care...
and neither do i tell people to use "this cap" and "that cap" because of how it sounds....
to me a cap has a job to do in a circuit, period....
so it does not matter to me if 1000 people say "this cap" and "that cap" sounds good, i just do not care...
and neither do i tell people to use "this cap" and "that cap" because of how it sounds....
Audiojoy unselfishly shared his findings with us. He proberbly would not have
imagined that it would be so blown out of proportion. Guys the question to be
ask is : Why are we into diy audio in the first place.
My discovery of this forum has brought much progress to my knowledge but
are they all good & correct ? Well one just gave to build & varify yourself. Scientifically speaking audio play back is something that's very difficult to
explain with measurements. Hell even humidity in the room affects how
the system sounds. In closing it would be nice if this forum can retain it's
original spirit
Cheers
imagined that it would be so blown out of proportion. Guys the question to be
ask is : Why are we into diy audio in the first place.
My discovery of this forum has brought much progress to my knowledge but
are they all good & correct ? Well one just gave to build & varify yourself. Scientifically speaking audio play back is something that's very difficult to
explain with measurements. Hell even humidity in the room affects how
the system sounds. In closing it would be nice if this forum can retain it's
original spirit
Cheers
to be able to build things, to me the journey to building things is even more important than the end result....
being in diyaudio, we would like to share our creations, caps are just a cog in the audio amp wheel and small cog at that...
as a builder if i can get away with no coupling caps in signal path, i will do it....
i also use botique caps when the client asks for it, other than that i find no reason,
to go around the forums talking about "this cap" and "that cap"....
my advice, use caps and never let caps use you...
Teflons tend to be bulky. The K73s have a combination of several advantages:
- Relatively compact
- Available in moderately useful values for audio use (up to 22 uF)
- Moderately good dielectric (PETP)
- Good construction (aluminium shell with crimped end seals)
- Non-magnetic leads
- Inexpensive
- Audibly clean and transparent
- Can be varnished with clear-coat, shellac or synthetic enamels
(for that shiny vintage-audio component look that's *so* important
for tube freaks)
I'm still a K73 fan-boy (BTW, I'm an EE), but I have since found alternatives that
have most of the advantages of the K73-16, and are even more detailed and
transparent. A good example is the Shinyei Kaisha FGSM (an MKP type).
They're compact and inexpensive, and they have numerous other series that are
recommended specifically for Audio:
PRODUCTS | SHINYEI CAPACITOR
The manufacturer is an obscure Japanese firm with operations in Malaysia and
other locations, but they claim to have invented the high-current metallized
polypropylene film cap, way back in 1965.
I'll continue to use the K73-16 in certain applications where micro-detail and
ultra-low DA is not a limiting requirement, while moving to the FGSM for certain
other applications. FGSM has ferromagnetic leads, but it doesn't bother me too
much, given its other measurable and audible advantages - I'll switch to the audio
versions like FNS or FAS in due course if they become more widely available.
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I've come across the term "micro-detail" a number of times and I'm not sure I understand what is meant by it; is it the ability to reproduce high frequency content accurately, or something else?
Yes, loosely. It also refers to the absence of high-frequency smear, low inter-modulation components, and retention of definition in high-frequency content, all of which are important for subjective perception of tonal separation, spatiality, etc.
Low Dielectric Absorption and Dissipation Factor help a bit, but it also turns on lack of microphonics, low EMI/RFI, high-quality ohmic contact between leads and foil, etc. There are many capacitors that measure fairly well on tan(delta) but subjectively still lack body and sound thin or harsh.
Both K73 and Shinyei FGSM don't have most of these shortcomings, but FGSM has very slightly better definition and transparency. It's possible that it's due to PETP vs. MKP dielectric film - sort of Apples vs. Oranges.
My sad experience with coupling capacitors is that they can subjectively affect the tonal signature a lot. The "better" a cap is IMHO, the less it gives the feel of accent on a certain frequency.
For example, I listened the Miflex PP+Paper in oil capacitors for coupling purposes for a few months, but I found out they made my system extremely dominating in the midbass region and I grew tired of that. They still they had their strengths - great sense of depth, no harsh sounding and that PIO style slowness and calmness I don't like, but lot of people adore oil capacitors for it.
But I suspect that it will work great on a system that seems like lacking midbass quantity.
Interstage transformers if well engineered by my opinion don't alter the tonal characteristics so much as coupling capacitors.
For example, I listened the Miflex PP+Paper in oil capacitors for coupling purposes for a few months, but I found out they made my system extremely dominating in the midbass region and I grew tired of that. They still they had their strengths - great sense of depth, no harsh sounding and that PIO style slowness and calmness I don't like, but lot of people adore oil capacitors for it.
But I suspect that it will work great on a system that seems like lacking midbass quantity.
Interstage transformers if well engineered by my opinion don't alter the tonal characteristics so much as coupling capacitors.
Once again disputing something I didn't say. I said I make no claims about my own ability, so I have not admitted anything.ceol said:
I didn't say that. Why don't you respond to what I say, instead of what I didn't say?
I didn't say that.
No magic involved, merely the certainty that the laws of physics are the same for all people combined with the entirely reasonable belief that very few people can actually hear changes well below the thresholds of known perception - yet many people seem to think they can.
There are quite plausible explanations for that.sumotan said:
Yes. People should start talking to each other instead of talking past each other by disputing things which have not been said. People should take less offence when someone else says they are mistaken. People should respond to criticism of their views with refutation rather than insults.
It takes a lot of design effort to make a transformer which can cover just the audio range plus a tiny amount above and below. Virtually any capacitor can do this and much more. Transformer distortions are orders of magnitude greater than capacitor distortion. Hence people only use audio transformers for two reasons:50AE said:
1. when they need what only a transformer can do well (impedance transformation, common-mode rejection, ground isolation) and so have to tolerate its weaknesses
2. when they want the particular distortions introduced by a transformer
People sometimes get these two reasons confused.
I partially agree, although we're different individuals. Some folks are more emotional, while others have thicker skins. I think it would be great really, if we could only profit from the strengths of each member here and neglect the weaknesses. I don't see a point in conflicts. The chance of changing people's way of thinking will probably be low and the quantity of information they'll learn won't be considerate.
Perhaps, but I suspect that reason 3 is just a variant of reason 2. People often postulate unmeasured undescribed distortions as an explanation for their preference for certain audio techniques when Occam's Razor tells us that the real reason is probably a preference for measured described distortions.
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