RobWells said:
Hey Rob.
That's a top idea, the postcrete mix stuff would be ideal, there's no aggregate and it sets in a few minutes.
It will also offer pretty exceptional resonance damping too.
The only real problem is that I need to actually be able to access the innards of the cabinet to fit the rear mounting ATC. I'd have to shape the concrete using guides to create a 'path' that allows fitting but its definitely better than the labyrinth thing I was going to do.
What do you 'recon then pink mouse?
Concrete filled chamber
Sand or leadshot filled chamber
Bags of sand
All I know is that I'd really rather avoid the visable fixings, some work was made to keep the look clean and bolts wouldn't go down well.
You've worked with the ATC so you know its quirks such as the strange mounting. I need a fair amount space to get it in and then enough room for a screw driver to clamp it down.
The easiest option would be to just leave the void in place but I think there would be a small benefit to making the cabinet virtually dead.
Concrete filled chamber
Sand or leadshot filled chamber
Bags of sand
All I know is that I'd really rather avoid the visable fixings, some work was made to keep the look clean and bolts wouldn't go down well.
You've worked with the ATC so you know its quirks such as the strange mounting. I need a fair amount space to get it in and then enough room for a screw driver to clamp it down.
The easiest option would be to just leave the void in place but I think there would be a small benefit to making the cabinet virtually dead.
Are these boxes going to be painted again?
I would drill and countersink holes for bolts from the front, then glue them in with epoxy. Use bolts that are short enough so you will only have 10-15mm proud when installed. Then fill with P38, and use nuts to fix the driver.
I have this great flexible driver with a socket adaptor, that I use all the time for getting drivers in and out of strange boxes. Made of flexible steel wire, (I think), you could bend it into quite tight shapes to get in to the most awkward fixing.
Does that make sense?
As for filling, you might find that you can tune the damping of the bass cab by using more or less mass in the mid-hi box, just like the way they use big concrete block on the top of skyscrapers to earthquake proof them...
I would drill and countersink holes for bolts from the front, then glue them in with epoxy. Use bolts that are short enough so you will only have 10-15mm proud when installed. Then fill with P38, and use nuts to fix the driver.
I have this great flexible driver with a socket adaptor, that I use all the time for getting drivers in and out of strange boxes. Made of flexible steel wire, (I think), you could bend it into quite tight shapes to get in to the most awkward fixing.
Does that make sense?
As for filling, you might find that you can tune the damping of the bass cab by using more or less mass in the mid-hi box, just like the way they use big concrete block on the top of skyscrapers to earthquake proof them...
hey Shin ,
any news lately? also are you happy with your tweeter ? after some listening of my prototype system (hyquphon OWII + ATC 3" + Tannoy 8" temporary at bass position ) I think I am not totally satisfied how OWII sounds . Just thought maybe you or somebody else here tested ATC mid dome with ribbon tweeter (something like LCY110/130) .wanna buy pair of those for testing , but I newer tested such configuration (dome mid + ribon tweeter ) .
dome mid + dome tweeter looks more natural (at least in theory).
any ideas ?
any news lately? also are you happy with your tweeter ? after some listening of my prototype system (hyquphon OWII + ATC 3" + Tannoy 8" temporary at bass position ) I think I am not totally satisfied how OWII sounds . Just thought maybe you or somebody else here tested ATC mid dome with ribbon tweeter (something like LCY110/130) .wanna buy pair of those for testing , but I newer tested such configuration (dome mid + ribon tweeter ) .
dome mid + dome tweeter looks more natural (at least in theory).
any ideas ?
Vil said:
Been pretty I'll the last week so I've done next nothing on anything really.
I'm exstatically happy with R2904, cannot fault anything with the sound it produces IF you cross it high enough. I've found it works very well with the ATC at 3-3.5Khz, this is the sweet spot if you like.
Cross it low, like 1.5-2Khz and it dissappoints when you push it hard in a large room. The beautiful transparency and realism turns into compressed, hard and edgy. This isn't a problem at 3.1Khz though, you can push it really hard and it still remains consistent, transparent and natural.
I like ribbons, I like them alot.
The AC G1 is one of the best for SQ and they are eff at 102dB, I've heard these in a set of Aurum Cantus commercial speakers called the Harmony from a private dealer in the UK. Very natural is the key word when I heard them, the mid and bass were a little dissappointing and a shame they paired such a good tweet with them but its an all in one AC package so they used their mid and bass drivers also which clearly aren't in the same league as their tweets.
The G1 was actually my first choice when I started the Perceive some months back but I was itching to try the R2904 and I'd say that in terms of SQ they are similar drivers, perhaps the G1 has slightly more 'magic' but the memory is a funny thing and I couldn't say for certain without a side-by-side. I'd also like to play with the G1 in a future project for sure. Eitherway both are among the best money will buy as is the ATC we both have - just be sure to cross the R2904 at 3Khz+ if you want to hear it at its best with high volumes or in large rooms, this is ofcourse ideal with the ATC since I think that its best to use its full range because its so damn agreeable.
A couple more weeks and these will be finished so I'm turning an eye towards the subs.
I've got a few idea's but I would really like to hear others thoughts. You may have gathered that I have somewhat high standards when it comes to audio and bass in particular.
It needs to be deep, very deep ie. 15hz flat in room ideally and with low distortion at high SPL's(100dB) and low Hz (20hz). Good group delay, good spectral time graph's and phase are also essential for 'musicality'.
I'll be doing stereo subs since the mains will only reach down to around 80-100hz. So the range the subs will cover will be 15-80hz. My aim is keep is compact within reason ie. no horns
3cuft/108ltr is around the ideal max - I need two of these so size is important.
My first idea was a line array of 4 x 10" Peerless XLS's on each side. This would keep the size down to a nice 75ltr sealed tower and from modelling 8 x XLS10's would easily do 100dB @ 15hz with <5% distortion, I'm a firm believer in headroom when it comes to bass, so this option looks good.
The second though was an 18" PA driver each side. Something like this:
PR18 250 - http://www.pa-direct.co.uk/driverpdf/max_professional_15,18,21 inch drivers.pdf
It all looks a bit 'suspect' to me though, I seriously believe from building 5 home and 7 car audio subs that sealed is the ONLY way to go for accurate, high end bass. Ported/reflex/TL can all sound quite wonderful but when it comes to infrasonic bass, sealed audibly yields clearly more control definition and attack. More importantly they sound more musical to me too. These PA driver really need ported from the TS though, so I have some serious doubt. Actually I've already talked myself out of that one, so forget that particular PA driver other drivers suggestions welcome though.
Finally I thought of revisiting my experiments with using high end SQ subs intended for car audio, in the home. This would be a 15" Diamond D9 each side. Don't laugh this idea of just because of the car audio heritage, the fact is that this sub's 'little' brother, the 15" D6, was one of the best subs I ever built(for a friend actually) and that stood against the Volt 15" radial chassis I had built before it.
I've got a few idea's but I would really like to hear others thoughts. You may have gathered that I have somewhat high standards when it comes to audio and bass in particular.
It needs to be deep, very deep ie. 15hz flat in room ideally and with low distortion at high SPL's(100dB) and low Hz (20hz). Good group delay, good spectral time graph's and phase are also essential for 'musicality'.
I'll be doing stereo subs since the mains will only reach down to around 80-100hz. So the range the subs will cover will be 15-80hz. My aim is keep is compact within reason ie. no horns
3cuft/108ltr is around the ideal max - I need two of these so size is important.My first idea was a line array of 4 x 10" Peerless XLS's on each side. This would keep the size down to a nice 75ltr sealed tower and from modelling 8 x XLS10's would easily do 100dB @ 15hz with <5% distortion, I'm a firm believer in headroom when it comes to bass, so this option looks good.
The second though was an 18" PA driver each side. Something like this:
PR18 250 - http://www.pa-direct.co.uk/driverpdf/max_professional_15,18,21 inch drivers.pdf
It all looks a bit 'suspect' to me though, I seriously believe from building 5 home and 7 car audio subs that sealed is the ONLY way to go for accurate, high end bass. Ported/reflex/TL can all sound quite wonderful but when it comes to infrasonic bass, sealed audibly yields clearly more control definition and attack. More importantly they sound more musical to me too. These PA driver really need ported from the TS though, so I have some serious doubt. Actually I've already talked myself out of that one, so forget that particular PA driver other drivers suggestions welcome though.
Finally I thought of revisiting my experiments with using high end SQ subs intended for car audio, in the home. This would be a 15" Diamond D9 each side. Don't laugh this idea of just because of the car audio heritage, the fact is that this sub's 'little' brother, the 15" D6, was one of the best subs I ever built(for a friend actually) and that stood against the Volt 15" radial chassis I had built before it.
I'm always an advocate for flat bass as low as possilbe ie. 15hz flat than necessarily having great output at higher bass frequencies...
Ie. having 100db at 15hz but 120 at 30hz isn't acceptable to me
ever think about a single 15-18" maelstorm or tumult??
if you can get your hands on the old AV avalanches that's a great option as well
horn loaded or a simple low tuning/TL with one of these subs would just be fantastic
Ie. having 100db at 15hz but 120 at 30hz isn't acceptable to me
ever think about a single 15-18" maelstorm or tumult??
if you can get your hands on the old AV avalanches that's a great option as well
horn loaded or a simple low tuning/TL with one of these subs would just be fantastic
Audiophilenoob said:
Yep I agree, flat amplitude is a definite for a sub. I actually use a house curve with +6dB from 20hz down to 0dB at 80hz for HT since it really gives the whole thing a real pleasing kick.
Music is a different matter and I definitely prefer a more slight lift towards 20hz of around +3dB. I've found if you tune it perfectly flat then the music sound exactly like that - flat, so I like a little EQ(only on the bass) to give more soul to the sound.
Or where you talking about power compression causing the low end to drop off?
Built a sub based on the Resonant Engineering XXX 15" driver - its basically a tumult with a higher Fs and lower Mms, both share the XBL2 motor.
Great sub for HT but not as good as the Diamond D6 or Volt Radial I built afterwards.
Not an option for me here in the UK.
Again size is important since I have to sink two of these into the room. Horn certainly is out of the window and TL would be borderline. When it comes to subs, I say keep it sealed - its inefficient compared to other methods but large radiating area and multiple drivers over comes this also sealed very often have better phase, group delay and STG(waterfall) plots.
ShinOBIWAN said:
the tumult doesn't have XBL2
the higher FS is a big big deal in HT though
a single 18" tumult tuned to 13hz would wang all across the FR plot
this is my plan... in a TL....
eventually
for now though my midbasses are perfectly flat to 35hz so mating with a woofer would have a LP of 40hz for the sub
-3db at 28hz for the midbasses
Audiophilenoob said:
Eh?
"The highest performance, world-class sound quality with our patent-pending XBL2 TM motor, amazing build quality. The ultimate subwoofer"
http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/TumultSeries.htm
Adire thinks so
Not with a Linkwitz Transform.
I've learnt a lot from all the subs I've had over the years.
An 18" tumult won't cut it at 13hz with an eye towards low distortion at high SPL's. It certainly wouldn't keep up with your mains at all or it will but won't sound great.
I've had 2 x Paradigm Servo 15's and I wasn't happy
I've also built a few home subs and out of those I'd rate the Diamond D6 highly and the Volt Radial 15" - they weren't SPL monsters though but SQ at reasonable level was quite fantastic for the money spent building them and certainly compared to commercial offerings of course.13hz or 15hz is an incredible strain to achieve when you want high SPL AND low distortion.
You'd be far better off with two.
The only subs I've heard that sound like what I'd call the finest bass is the Velo DD18. A good chap here in the UK called Eric who runs the AVTalk forums runs two of them and is the Velo dealer here in the UK so he demo's them regularly to friends and interested parties. Quite simply they are the finest you will hear.
If I best those pair I'd be extremely happy - not gonna happen though. Probably the best is 'close'.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Eh?
"The highest performance, world-class sound quality with our patent-pending XBL2 TM motor, amazing build quality. The ultimate subwoofer"
http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/TumultSeries.htm
Adire thinks so
Not with a Linkwitz Transform.
I've learnt a lot from all the subs I've had over the years.
An 18" tumult won't cut it at 13hz with an eye towards low distortion at high SPL's. It certainly wouldn't keep up with your mains at all or it will but won't sound great.
I've had 2 x Paradigm Servo 15's and I wasn't happy
13hz or 15hz is an incredible strain to achieve when you want high SPL AND low distortion.
You'd be far better off with two.
The only subs I've heard that sound like what I'd call the finest bass is the Velo DD18. A good chap here in the UK called Eric who runs the AVTalk forums runs two of them and is the Velo dealer here in the UK so he demo's them regularly to friends and interested parties. Quite simply they are the finest you will hear.
If I best those pair I'd be extremely happy - not gonna happen though. Probably the best is 'close'.
sry maybe with the new speakers adire is using XBL2 on the tumult I didn't think they had it before
why wouldn't it cut it???
excursion would nearly be non-existant at 15hz with a 13hz tune or lower...
so at that low note 70% of distortion (especially with XBL) would be eliminated
I could imagine with a tune like that you would have a 3db down point of around 15hz... pretty damn good as far as I"m concerned.. and it would be damn flat with relatively impressive output... at least to match speakers I won't ever push past 105db
Well I guess we have different goals or tastes.
When it comes to bass I've heard the best and it tends to give you rather lofty goals.
2 x Servo 15's not good enough, 1 x SVS CS-Ultra sold after a month, 15" XXX sold after a couple of months, 15" Volt Radial sold and whole raft of 'toy' subs such as Rel, Mission and Vibe years ago when I was starting out.
Erics dual DD18 setup I heard, I would certainly keep The only other that come close in terms of sound quality for music was the Diamond D6 but it was limited in SPL and because of that extension.
I mean an 18" crossed to 4 x 15" where's your imagination! I'm thinking of crossing 8 x 10" over to 2 x 8".
Remember what you said in a recent thread?
"better to over engineer than regret later"
When it comes to bass, its only the over engineered that seem to please me. I seriously think its the hardest part to get right, sure it seems simple at from a specs and calcs point of view but sit down and listen and that soon changes.
When it comes to bass I've heard the best and it tends to give you rather lofty goals.
2 x Servo 15's not good enough, 1 x SVS CS-Ultra sold after a month, 15" XXX sold after a couple of months, 15" Volt Radial sold and whole raft of 'toy' subs such as Rel, Mission and Vibe years ago when I was starting out.
Erics dual DD18 setup I heard, I would certainly keep
The only other that come close in terms of sound quality for music was the Diamond D6 but it was limited in SPL and because of that extension.I mean an 18" crossed to 4 x 15" where's your imagination! I'm thinking of crossing 8 x 10" over to 2 x 8".
Remember what you said in a recent thread?
"better to over engineer than regret later"
When it comes to bass, its only the over engineered that seem to please me. I seriously think its the hardest part to get right, sure it seems simple at from a specs and calcs point of view but sit down and listen and that soon changes.
ShinOBIWAN said:Well I guess we have different goals or tastes.
When it comes to bass I've heard the best and it tends to give you rather lofty goals.
2 x Servo 15's not good enough, 1 x SVS CS-Ultra sold after a month, 15" XXX sold after a couple of months, 15" Volt Radial sold and whole raft of 'toy' subs such as Rel, Mission and Vibe years ago when I was starting out.
Erics dual DD18 setup I heard, I would certainly keep
I mean an 18" crossed to 4 x 15" where's your imagination! I'm thinking of crossing 8 x 10" over to 2 x 8".
Remember what you said in a recent thread?
"better to over engineer than regret later"
When it comes to bass, its only the over engineered that seem to please me. I seriously think its the hardest part to get right, sure it seems simple at from a specs and calcs point of view but sit down and listen and that soon changes.
agreed if you're looking for play past 35-40hz for a top end.... I wouldn't be looking at my solution...
I would LOVE to horn load a tumult with a 15hz horn
loooooove it!
but the again it would be.... well HUGE
Audiophilenoob said:
LOL
Good luck in finding a room large enough to accomodate a 15hz horn for that 3-6dB more headroom it would afford. Would be MUCH easier to add a second driver of course
Not to mention better GD, phase and STC. Sealed is the in-effecient king of SQ when your talking about infrasonic bass.
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