the difference lies in the cache memory.the more is cache on board the processor,the faster it is,cache is jus like ram but since its onboard and is the fastest memory,so its availability affects the processor speed very much,(reason being the very fast access time) a 1.7ghz pentium can cost as much as twice the price of a similar celeron(1.7ghz),the reason being the onboard cache memory.
this explains the differnce between the AMD and the Celeron
Regarding any parameter of interest the AMD vs. Intel rank bounces back and forth every year or so. Also each comes in a variety of flavor at a given moment.
A lot of the info on the web is gamer oriented which though useful needs to be tempered for audio purposes. For example when a gamer oriented site says that some product signifigantly reduces noise, that can mean it's a bit like reducing the sound from a 747 down to a chainsaw. If you are the type of audiophile that cringes when the refrigerator kicks in down the hall you may find the improvement dissapointing!
A lot of the info on the web is gamer oriented which though useful needs to be tempered for audio purposes. For example when a gamer oriented site says that some product signifigantly reduces noise, that can mean it's a bit like reducing the sound from a 747 down to a chainsaw. If you are the type of audiophile that cringes when the refrigerator kicks in down the hall you may find the improvement dissapointing!
If you REALLY want quiet, it's not as hard as you think. The trick? Laptop processors and REALLY big heatsinks.
An AMD Turion processor can put out under 20 watts if undervolted, which is easily dissipated by a Thermalright XP-120 aluminum heatsink, even without a fan. Because they use the old Socket 754 form factor, it's a simple issue of finding an older-model motherboard with support for them. (I reccomend Asus, which has updated the drivers for several of their boards.)
No other modifications would be necessary. However, I reccomend using a 120mm Panaflo fan at five or six volts. The noise level is unnoticeable, and it certianly can't hurt. A passively-cooled video card (such as a few of Sapphire's ATi 9600-based cards) and a high-quality hard drive (Western Digital or Segate) can also help.
EDIT:
A dual-core socket 939 opteron such as the 265 is another nice option. If you really need the power, they also overclock very, very well.
An AMD Turion processor can put out under 20 watts if undervolted, which is easily dissipated by a Thermalright XP-120 aluminum heatsink, even without a fan. Because they use the old Socket 754 form factor, it's a simple issue of finding an older-model motherboard with support for them. (I reccomend Asus, which has updated the drivers for several of their boards.)
No other modifications would be necessary. However, I reccomend using a 120mm Panaflo fan at five or six volts. The noise level is unnoticeable, and it certianly can't hurt. A passively-cooled video card (such as a few of Sapphire's ATi 9600-based cards) and a high-quality hard drive (Western Digital or Segate) can also help.
EDIT:
A dual-core socket 939 opteron such as the 265 is another nice option. If you really need the power, they also overclock very, very well.
You could consider an outboard sound card like the Tascam US-122 connected to PC by USB cable. I've had one for a couple of years - excellent for audio recording/playback 
http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html
I don't see what difference the PC CPU would make as long as the PC supports USB (unless it was really slooow and ancient.)
http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html
I don't see what difference the PC CPU would make as long as the PC supports USB (unless it was really slooow and ancient.)
Guys. You're the best!
Not only are you answering my questions, your in depth analysis
increases my learning curve.....
Thanks.
I agree. I've searched all over to find most if not all high torque
computers are steered around video games. This is why I chose
to bring forth this question.
Thanks for the recomendation. I'm currently using two of these;
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496-main.html
I rather use a desktop, due to having more room to expand,
if need be.
Oh! BTW. Fan noise is not an issue with me. The computer will
be used on the road. So, whats an additional fan compared to
14 fans spinning attached to amplifiers.
Gentlemen. What are your thoughts on homemade computers
being sold on Ebay?
Seeing that my biggest issue is hardrive space, and, a processor
with a large cache. Couldn't I just buy an old handmade job on
ebay instead?
My only requirements are;
1. 160 - 200 gb Hardrive
2. A Processor with a lot of Cache
3. 2 Ghz minimum
4. Two sockets to hold my M Audio Soundcards.
I don't even need Windows XP. I can operate everything on
Windows 2000, or 98SE if need be. (The programs will work
on 98SE)
What if I built one from scratch, how much would it cost me?
Keep in mind, I never built a computer before, so, this is all
new to me.
Not only are you answering my questions, your in depth analysis
increases my learning curve.....
sagarverma said:
Thanks.
sam9 said:
I agree. I've searched all over to find most if not all high torque
computers are steered around video games. This is why I chose
to bring forth this question.
tonecat said:You could consider an outboard sound card like the Tascam US-122 connected to PC by USB cable. I've had one for a couple of years - excellent for audio recording/playback
http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html
Thanks for the recomendation. I'm currently using two of these;
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496-main.html
I rather use a desktop, due to having more room to expand,
if need be.
Oh! BTW. Fan noise is not an issue with me. The computer will
be used on the road. So, whats an additional fan compared to
14 fans spinning attached to amplifiers.
Gentlemen. What are your thoughts on homemade computers
being sold on Ebay?
Seeing that my biggest issue is hardrive space, and, a processor
with a large cache. Couldn't I just buy an old handmade job on
ebay instead?
My only requirements are;
1. 160 - 200 gb Hardrive
2. A Processor with a lot of Cache
3. 2 Ghz minimum
4. Two sockets to hold my M Audio Soundcards.
I don't even need Windows XP. I can operate everything on
Windows 2000, or 98SE if need be. (The programs will work
on 98SE)
What if I built one from scratch, how much would it cost me?
Keep in mind, I never built a computer before, so, this is all
new to me.
I have never had anything but a a homemade PC, except my very first one.... a 16Mhz 386sx... very long time ago. I have yet to find any brandname product like Dell or Compaq or whatever, to have reasonable components inside.... its always pretty as hell outside, but like a trip to the kiddies department when you open the box. Alienware excluded, but that is too expensive.
I think the main problem with internal cards is the noise level inside the PC... nevermind the wirrs whistles (love that word) we hear...
Anything from an AMD64 3000+ upwards will have more than enough memory bandwidth, but 3500+ is where the CPU speed starts to get nice... not that I think you still get the slower ones in the shops. Combine that with some fast low latency RAM, and you got a very nice machine...
I think the main problem with internal cards is the noise level inside the PC... nevermind the wirrs whistles (love that word) we hear...
Anything from an AMD64 3000+ upwards will have more than enough memory bandwidth, but 3500+ is where the CPU speed starts to get nice... not that I think you still get the slower ones in the shops. Combine that with some fast low latency RAM, and you got a very nice machine...
homemade?we call these assembled pc.differtent components r from different manufacturers,they all r arranged and connected at their requisite places.this is the best alternative to buying branded pcs which r way too costly than what they offer.mine is a mix of samsung,sony etc etc.
from your demand of a lot of cache,i feel u need a very fast machine.
even a small of amount of cache can make a huge difference to processing speed(not clock speed),but man this memory is costly as hell.even few more kbs of cache can set u back by hundreds of $s.
for fast speed,use a good mix of RAM and a good processor.
get an Intel pentium 2.4Ghz,min 512Mb of ram(ddr,it behaves faster than its equivalent sd,almost twice as fast).amd processors do get more hot but i have heard many a praises bout their robustness.so equivalent of P4 in AMD is a must consider.
I'm not sure about how I would feel regarding buying a homemasde off e-bay unless it was very cheap. Little recourse if it goes bad. On the other hand "building" you own home made is vey easy. Assemble is a better word than build. The skills required are a tiny fraction of that needed foy DIY loadspeakers or amplifiers (even less than needed to build a gaineclone).
There is also a major advantage in that home made from more or less generic components will be MUCH more upgradable than a Dell, HP or whatever. Ever been stuck with a 4 year old Dell and inqure regarding upgrades? Hrumpf!
There is also a major advantage in that home made from more or less generic components will be MUCH more upgradable than a Dell, HP or whatever. Ever been stuck with a 4 year old Dell and inqure regarding upgrades? Hrumpf!
First, Omnifex, I need a little bit more information from you. Your description of what you want to do with the PC is a little lite. Do you intend to use the PC to do any processing of the audio? Or is it primarily for editing, recording, and playback? What do you want it to do live, and what do you want it to do in non-realtime? These are VERY important questions, and will determine how much processing power you need.
Next, I'll tackle some of the misleading crap that's been put up here. First, while cache does affect CPU speed, its nowhere near the main thing that differentiates the processors. I won't go into major detail, but let's just say cache is one small part of it.
As for AMD vs. Intel, my opinion is that as fast as most processors are today and compared to what you've described you 've been playing with, this is not the question you should be asking. Both will be blindingly fast, and both will probably handily accomplish what you want. (This is where knowing what you expect the computer to do live and in non-realtime) As for which one runs hotter, it depends on which model of processor you're talking about. The Pentium M's run very cool, the P4's run very hot, the Athlon X64's run hot, the Athlon XP's and Semprons run cooler.
The key things you need to concern yourself with:
1) hard drive size and speed. I would look at Seagate or Western Digital, as they offer better warranties and blindingly fast drives. You'll want to look at using SATA drives, as they're where the performance is. As an option, if you want really blindingly fast hard drives, get a RAID card and a couple of hard drives. I don't think you need that much speed, but its an option. Also keep in mind the 10,000 RPM drives also tend to run hotter and louder.
2) memory. You need lots of memory, minimum I would look at for you would be 1 gig, 2 gig would be better, but one will do you fine. Most of the motherboards you'll probably be looking at will all want DDR or DDR2 memory. Don't buy the cheapest memory, you'll regret it, try to match the memory toi the best speed the motherboard is capable of.
3) processor speed. Here, again, I can't say a lot, not knowing what you really want. However, I would compare the prices on processors first. Determine how much you want to spend on the processor itself, then look to see who gives you the most bang for your buck. Don't get fooled by just the clock speed or even AMD's stupid PR rating. I can help you decide, but I need more info.
4) power supply. While most people have ignored this, its VERY important. Don't buy the cheapest one again, you'll regret this as well.
Oh, and all of this assumes you're building it yourself. I think you'll be happier doing this, as you'll get exactly what you want, and none of the extra crap that you don't. I won't quote prices at you, because I don't believe you're in the U.S. and those are the only prices I know. I can however, help in choosing an appropriate processor, motherboard, memory and maybe power supply.
To give you an idea of the kind of money you may be looking at, I would think you should be able to build a system for what you need, in the U.S. for about $400-$500, this assumes you already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and floppy drive, if you want it.
I just recently built most of a system for about $400, now, $100 of that was the video card, but you don't have a need for a nice video card. You could get away with a much cheaper card, and spend that extra money on more ram or something like that.
Hopefully, this hasn't overwhelmed you, and will give you some better ideas of what to look at. Let us know the full intent of the machine, and we can help further.
Oh, I just remembered the link about the ASUS board with the tube on it. I believe that board is no longer produced. It was built for a show several years ago and was a specialty niche board, but it was real.
Next, I'll tackle some of the misleading crap that's been put up here. First, while cache does affect CPU speed, its nowhere near the main thing that differentiates the processors. I won't go into major detail, but let's just say cache is one small part of it.
As for AMD vs. Intel, my opinion is that as fast as most processors are today and compared to what you've described you 've been playing with, this is not the question you should be asking. Both will be blindingly fast, and both will probably handily accomplish what you want. (This is where knowing what you expect the computer to do live and in non-realtime) As for which one runs hotter, it depends on which model of processor you're talking about. The Pentium M's run very cool, the P4's run very hot, the Athlon X64's run hot, the Athlon XP's and Semprons run cooler.
The key things you need to concern yourself with:
1) hard drive size and speed. I would look at Seagate or Western Digital, as they offer better warranties and blindingly fast drives. You'll want to look at using SATA drives, as they're where the performance is. As an option, if you want really blindingly fast hard drives, get a RAID card and a couple of hard drives. I don't think you need that much speed, but its an option. Also keep in mind the 10,000 RPM drives also tend to run hotter and louder.
2) memory. You need lots of memory, minimum I would look at for you would be 1 gig, 2 gig would be better, but one will do you fine. Most of the motherboards you'll probably be looking at will all want DDR or DDR2 memory. Don't buy the cheapest memory, you'll regret it, try to match the memory toi the best speed the motherboard is capable of.
3) processor speed. Here, again, I can't say a lot, not knowing what you really want. However, I would compare the prices on processors first. Determine how much you want to spend on the processor itself, then look to see who gives you the most bang for your buck. Don't get fooled by just the clock speed or even AMD's stupid PR rating. I can help you decide, but I need more info.
4) power supply. While most people have ignored this, its VERY important. Don't buy the cheapest one again, you'll regret this as well.
Oh, and all of this assumes you're building it yourself. I think you'll be happier doing this, as you'll get exactly what you want, and none of the extra crap that you don't. I won't quote prices at you, because I don't believe you're in the U.S. and those are the only prices I know. I can however, help in choosing an appropriate processor, motherboard, memory and maybe power supply.
To give you an idea of the kind of money you may be looking at, I would think you should be able to build a system for what you need, in the U.S. for about $400-$500, this assumes you already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and floppy drive, if you want it.
I just recently built most of a system for about $400, now, $100 of that was the video card, but you don't have a need for a nice video card. You could get away with a much cheaper card, and spend that extra money on more ram or something like that.
Hopefully, this hasn't overwhelmed you, and will give you some better ideas of what to look at. Let us know the full intent of the machine, and we can help further.
Oh, I just remembered the link about the ASUS board with the tube on it. I believe that board is no longer produced. It was built for a show several years ago and was a specialty niche board, but it was real.
Lol, OK, gotto admit, I'm a hardcore gamer, my last video card, cost more than my last car... wised u a bit since then but still...I prize performance above anything, I don't mean getting 300fps, when 100 will do, but getting say the said 100 on a consistant basis.
Most gamers I deal with (first person shooters), wouldn't even think of using a Pentium... Also, ALL PC's running the kind of speeds machines do these days, have heat issues, AMD is no worse than Intel in this category... luckily a good large heatsink isnt that expensive or hard to find anymore.
High quality sound settings in games absolutly chows performance unless you have a very fast CPU (or new souncard that does its own processing), so don't disregard the CPU, a fast single core will get done with a task faster than a dual core.
Most gamers I deal with (first person shooters), wouldn't even think of using a Pentium... Also, ALL PC's running the kind of speeds machines do these days, have heat issues, AMD is no worse than Intel in this category... luckily a good large heatsink isnt that expensive or hard to find anymore.
High quality sound settings in games absolutly chows performance unless you have a very fast CPU (or new souncard that does its own processing), so don't disregard the CPU, a fast single core will get done with a task faster than a dual core.
Schaef said:
Actually, my Athlon64 runs cooler than my friend's Athlon XP does.
As for the PR rating stuff, AMD have come a long way from the sad old days and their ratings match up fairly well now. The only important thing to remember is that while AMD can get alot more integer instructions done for a given clock speed, floating point instructions lag behind an intel running at real xx GHz vs. AMD's rating for the same speed. SMP has been used for years in workstations and servers... Rest assured it's only a matter of time before the same happens in desktops and the software catches up.... dual / quad core IS the way ahead.
Nordic said:
AMD is actually considerably better than intel for heat these days if you compare the desktop / workstation CPU's.
As for the the 2nd point. If the application is designed for SMP then dual core will likely leave single core for dead even if the single core runs at a higher speed. The problem being that most "desktop" applications and games are not designed to take advantage of SMP and so a faster single core comes out ahead. Use a workstation operating system with workstation applications all designed for SMP and it is a very different story.
ps. and no I'm not an AMD fanboy .... I just get the best available at the time which happened to be AMD last time. If AMD doesn't have something mighty impressive coming soon, it looks like I might get Intel next time when their "Core" based desktop / workstation processors arrive late this year.
sagarverma said:
First, I'd like to clear a few things up.
Cache ram is used by the processor to store things that it's currently working on. It's incredibly important for hyper-threaded and dual-core processors in particular, which often have to juggle several threads, and keep the data at hand so that another thread can access it. It's also very useful for working with extremely large and CPU-intensive files, such as high-quality audio encoding.
The reason the a Pentium is much more expensive than a Celeron is that cache RAM requires an extremely large number of transistors;
1MB of cache RAM can have over 8 million transistors.
A note about AMD processors: They can get memory from RAM with much less lag time, meaning that cache is'nt as important.
Secondly, the Pentium 4 is a bit of a joke. Although Hyperthreading (an intel-specific feature which allows a processor to handle two threads at once) gives a performance boost in audio work, AMD's Athlon 64 line (especially the socket 939 variant) performs so much better at the same price point that it does'nt matter.
AMD also has some other advantages. Although some of their earlier processors were admittedly rather hot-running, the AMD64 line actually runs a great deal cooler than a Pentium. Because it has a built-in memory controller, it can get data from memory directly, instead of having to shuffle it through the front-side bus. In addition, it's much easier to have multiple processors; AMD's dual-core (meaning two processors on a chip) processors are both cheaper and faster than their Intel counterparts.
Lastly, SDRAM has'nt been used for years. DDR2 has started to replace DDR; although Intel only supports it, AMD's DDR2-supporting processors should be out in a month or two. (And because of the integrated memory controller, it can use the same chipsets.) DDR2-533 generally performs about as well as DDR1-400; DDR2-667 gives an increase in performance of a few percent. Note, however, that AMD processors actually don't need memory as fast as that needed by Intel processors; there's no lag time while it's shuffled through the mainbridge.
The upshot of all the stuff I said?
1. AMD owns Intel, with the exception of the Pentium M line. The P-Ms are nice processors, but a pain in the kiester to use. (You need a special motherboard). They're not cheap, either.
2. Dual-core is good. The AMD dual-core 1.8ghz Opteron can be had for about 310$ or less, if I'm not mistaken; it will actually run quite happily at 2 ghz. (It's regularly overclocked to 2.4; watercooling can get it to 2.7, and vapochill can get it up to 3Ghz!) For the record, a dual-core AMD64 processor at 2 ghz can beat the snot out of a 3.6 ghz Pentium 4.
3.Dual channel memory is a must. (DDR2 is not a big deal, though.) All you need is two matched sticks of RAM. I reccomend 2GB.
4. Laptop processors run cooler than desktop processors. With a good heatsink, you can use a Turion or Pentium-M without a fan. (I'm not kidding. That said, my idea of a "good heatsink" is a finned hunk of copper or aluminum the size of my head.)
EDIT:
Your Ideal Configuration:
AMD opteron 165 dual-core processor, 2x1.8 ghz w/ 2MB of cache, socket 939. 325$.
Asus A8N5X motherboard. 84$.
2x G.Skill 1024mb 400mhz DDR @ CAS.25, 160$.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB hard drive, 100$. (A second could be added.)
Aopen GEforce 6600. 95$.
NEC dual-layer DVD burner. 40$.
Total cost: 900$. (About 940$ if you upgrade the heasink and thermal paste.)
NOTE: All prices from Newegg.com, a really good retailer.
Schaef said:
The Processing would be done in the editing. Mixing live, would
be done with .wav files. Your right. My needs are very lite. I just
need a fast processor, and, a lot of gigs.
Thanks. I think you know what I'm aiming for. And btw, I do live
in the States. I paid a visit to Compusa just to see what is available
in terms of parts.
Spasticteapot said:
Thanks for your reply.
I don't need a DVD Burner, seeing I'll never use it. I don't need
a $100 dollar soundcard either. So, for $760.00, this will be better
than buying a store bought computer, and, uninstalling whatever
programs I need at the same price point?
My main concern is 160 - 200 Gigs hardrive, two good
soundcards (In which I have) and, a fast processor
(2 GHz minimum). I will only be using three programs,
and, they won't be used simultaneously. This is the
reason, why I said I can use Windows 98SE if need be.
My workload is very lite. I just need a large hardrive and
a fast processor.
The Programs used will be;
Ableton Live
Wavelab
PCDJ (DJ mp3/wav mixing program)
Thats it!
Building it doesn't sound too cost effective, unless I'm missing
something
Anyone knows which websites sells parts? I've heard of Tigerdirect,
and now, Newegg. However, I would like to explore more sites.
Thanks for the help.
OMNIFEX said:
Okay, knowing you're in the states, I can really start to help out. So, the next obvious question would be, how much do you want to spend? What equipment do you have lying around that you can scavage for other parts? (Things like monitors, keyboards, mice, floppy drives, etc)
Also, will this rig be traveling, as I suspect it will be? I'm guessing you're looking to do a traveling DJ rig, correct? This makes a slight difference, as this will affect the size of case to pick, you don't really want a full size tower to lug around!
Thanks for your reply.
I don't need a DVD Burner, seeing I'll never use it. I don't need
a $100 dollar soundcard either. So, for $760.00, this will be better
than buying a store bought computer, and, uninstalling whatever
programs I need at the same price point?
My main concern is 160 - 200 Gigs hardrive, two good
soundcards (In which I have) and, a fast processor
(2 GHz minimum). I will only be using three programs,
and, they won't be used simultaneously. This is the
reason, why I said I can use Windows 98SE if need be.
My workload is very lite. I just need a large hardrive and
a fast processor.
The Programs used will be;
Ableton Live
Wavelab
PCDJ (DJ mp3/wav mixing program)
Thats it!
Building it doesn't sound too cost effective, unless I'm missing
something
Anyone knows which websites sells parts? I've heard of Tigerdirect,
and now, Newegg. However, I would like to explore more sites.
Thanks for the help.
A couple of things then. It looks like what most people are recommending is way beyond what your current and possibly future needs are. You don't need dual core, you don't need state of the art processors, what you need are lots of ram and a fast harddrive.
Newegg's prices are pretty reasonable, and they're pretty good with things, I've ordered my last two major upgrades from them. If you want a wide selection of vendors, some more than likely questionable, then you want sites like PriceWatch or the like. There are others, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. These types of sites list lots of vendors, and you can compare prices between them for different things. I would highly recommend going with one vendor for everything, shipping and what not will be easier.
Just a note, the system spasticteapot listed is more than you need, so you can go cheaper than what he listed. For example, a Sempron64 will work quite nicely for you, and these can be had for under $100.
One other thing I would look at if I were you, would be to get either 2000 or XP, the whole 9x series of windows are not great and support for them are disappearing fast, so you may not find drivers for the new hardware.
Some helpful hints when looking at hardware choices, first, specify retail versions of things like motherboards, CPUs and the like, there is a difference between OEM and retail. The retail versions typically contain better documentation, and usually include extras like cables and possibly software. For the hard drive, OEM is okay, as long as you already have the necessary cable to hook it up.
So, my recommendation? Look at either the Sempron64 from AMD or the Pentium M for Intel, the Pentium M will run cooler, but at a little lower processing power. I haven't priced it, so I don't know how it compares price wise to the Semprons.
Now, before everyone starts jumping all over me for recommending a mid level system, he doesn't have a need for a top of the line system. What I've listed will be more than sufficient for his current needs, and should work for future expansion as well.
Oh, and since you seem to think you'll save money by building, its not so much about saving money, as it is getting exactly what you want and need, and not paying for stuff you don't. For instance, all pre-built computers will come with sound capability, you don't need that. They also typically come with a modem, again, you don't need it. The other place a built machine shines is when you outgrow what you currently have. A pre-built machine locks you into what they offer, and that's it. A custom machine, you can easily upgrade the bits to whatever is new and cool.
Alright, enough rambling, the next thing I need to know, is your budget. Don't tell me you don't know what to specify, tell me how much you want to spend, and we'll put together a system that meets your needs, and budget.
Bob
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