Hi Scott,
Other Scott's corrected me (45Hz). The Super Pencil 12 cab is 40Hz (Scott L to correct me if needed). Tough choice. Certainly from last weeks listening test, the Pencil 10 with 10.2 drivers (not optimum) won by a short head over the Pencil 12. But the groups decision was very close and hinged on matching amps. Could we have found a sweeter amp match for the Pencil 12's? Possibly, in which case the decision could have swung the other way.
I've got a pair of Oakwood Pencil 10.2's arriving soon, then Super Pencil 12's to be build next. Once this is done, we'll get a better feel for the personality of both systems. My money is still on the Super Pencil 12's using my Accuphase's but this is purely personal choice. Norio, our Japan rep, who's also a respected jazz guitar player favours 10.2's.
Its purely a personal choice situation. Overall, if you've got a larger space, I'd possibly put the Super Pencil 12 (wife/parter permitting) more or less at the top of the list, but anyone wanting a slightly more mellow sound, the 10.2 with its new Matsubara san coil is ubber sweet, especially on a descent tube amp. Either cabinet system doubles up as an excellent flower/plant stand (keeping wife/partner happy).
"Hung Hei Fat Choi" (Happy Chinese New Year) for the year of the Rabbit.
Mark.
So how do these do with solid state or am I totally OT now? I don't have Tubes and although I had some amazing tubes at my house this last week for a GTG I hosted last weekend:
Melody MK88:
AN300B (dear lordy this is a sweet sounding amp! My Mini's have NEVER sounded so good!!):
I probably won't be able to do them in this setup due to the type of listening we generally do:
The system is generally used for TV watching as well as movies and music. I have two systems and this one is used 85% of the time. With as much TV and Movie watching we do, having a SS receiver is necessary (or a pre-pro with dedicated amps) but space basically dictates a receiver. What I currently use is an HK AVR-254 which is a very nice smooth sounding receiver. I actually like its tonal quality better than my Rotel RSX-1056 I had. WAF is not an issue as you can see. My mains are 47" tall (if I remember right) and the center is 36" wide. I like big speakers
So doing the SuperPensil12 is quite a bit smaller than I'm used to! I definitely prefer a more in your face sound than mellow so maybe the Supers are the way to go ... Good bass response for me is critical as is the ability to play loud if need be. I'm not talking reference levels (I have my basement HT for that) but get decently loud in my space.I'm still struggling though as I've never heard a single driver setup ever so if someone wants to have me over for a listen I'd greatly appreciate it! Especially someone with some of Mark's drivers
Scott
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I don't understand, what is this WAF thing you speak of
WAF doesn't rule my roost that's for sure! Well, I can basically do whatever I want as long as the finish is nice. 72" tall Avebury's, yup, that's ok. If I didn't finish them though I'd be dead! LOL!
Definitely. I'm presuming with a front "port" on these that the rear wall loading becomes even less significant ...
So how do these do with solid state or am I totally OT now? I don't have Tubes and although I had some amazing tubes at my house this last week for a GTG I hosted last weekend:
Melody MK88:
AN300B (dear lordy this is a sweet sounding amp! My Mini's have NEVER sounded so good!!):
I probably won't be able to do them in this setup due to the type of listening we generally do:
The system is generally used for TV watching as well as movies and music. I have two systems and this one is used 85% of the time. With as much TV and Movie watching we do, having a SS receiver is necessary (or a pre-pro with dedicated amps) but space basically dictates a receiver. What I currently use is an HK AVR-254 which is a very nice smooth sounding receiver. I actually like its tonal quality better than my Rotel RSX-1056 I had. WAF is not an issue as you can see. My mains are 47" tall (if I remember right) and the center is 36" wide. I like big speakers
I'm still struggling though as I've never heard a single driver setup ever so if someone wants to have me over for a listen I'd greatly appreciate it! Especially someone with some of Mark's drivers
Scott
Hi Scott,
Think you had an interesting weekend. I know Melody from their earlier days as the factory was close to mine. The fit and finish on Melody's cases is excellent. One note of moderate caution. There's allot of Chinese commercially produced amps that are good value for money but there are limits on component quality. Thats why I've gravitated towards those members on the DIY forum who are smaller component/amp makers. Usually, these guys search for the really good components and have taken time to work on circuit design. Their priorities are mostly centered on pure acoustic performance rather that keeping the bank manager and share holders happy. I'm not criticising commercially built amps as for the most part they offer good value. But I am recommending doing plenty of research prior to any tube (and solid state) amp purchase. There are super bargains out there.
Moving on to your system development (Super Pencil 12) did you see Graham's pages?:
Graham's hifi page
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/157768-pensil-12-b-w-matrix-802-a.html
Graham's experience is really interesting. He moved away from B&W 802's to Pencil 12's (front left and right + centre) and Alpair 7's at the rear. His system is a stereo/HT system, switching between Ella KT88 and a Denon HT receiver.
Cheers
Mark.
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Hi Buzz,
Interesting question. The 10.2's rectangle wire winding eliminates any small gaps inside its winding. This coil is almost 0.5g lighter than the Gen 1 Alp10. The rectangle coil is more electro-mechancically efficient. When added to the rest of the up-grades (Multi-form cone, low mass rear suspension etc.) the 10.2 is a step forward. its impedance response is slightly flatter than the Alp12, thus suiting many tube amp, especially those warm soft clipping types. When mated with 10.2's, it makes for a warm sound with sweet detail. Equally, listening to the 10.2's on my Accuphase 308 is also a ubber nice experience.
Re Alp12 on Class A, the Aleph J is a pure class A with plenty of power (30 watts). I've listening to Japanese built solid Walnut wood Pencil 12's on Luxman's 590 Class A, also 30 watts. Its a great match. The dynamics were as good as it can get. This system is in the hands of a respected pianist so it had to got right.
The more critical question is: "what do I up-grade on the next batch of Alpair 12?". most likely the coil for the Alp12 will follow the design of the Alp10.2. But I'm some time away from this project as the Alp12 remains an advanced driver with the most complex suspension I've made to date.
But you guys know me, I'm a "tweakaholic". Can't help it, I'm addicted to designing, testing and more tweaking.
Cheers
Mark.
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Good to know. I am will follow with eager anticipation. I can asure you that if you did update the 12's, you would sell one pair. I have yet to hear the 10.2's in anything other than a cardboard box but cannot say enough about build quality and sound....at low levels. My Aleph J and Pensil's will go head to head with my brothers tube amp and Quad floorstanders.
hi Buzz,
I've added more info to my last post. Hope this helps. Thanks for your support, alway welcome. Its down to personal choice. Along with the local listening groups and beta guys, there's going to be lots of Markaudio driver/amp combinations that work well.
I've just given my beloved 300B to Kenneth to up-grade all its transformers. Will take a month or so as he makes by hand taking up to 4 days just to make 1 winding!
Can't wait to get my 300B back.
Equally, we played both 10.2 and 12's on my beloved vintage (1990) Sansui AU-a907DR. Weighing in at nearly 34Kg (phew) with its monster "Silent Weave" transformers, 10.2's and 12's like their lips when they see this amp being connected. I only paid a couple of hundred bucks for this amp, buying it in Tokyo, it cost almost as much to ship it to Hong Kong because of the weight.
SANSUI ƒvƒŠƒ�ƒCƒ“ƒAƒ“ƒvAU-ƒ¿907DR‚ÌŽd—l ƒTƒ“ƒXƒC
Cheers
Mark.
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Mark,
The Melody gear was at my house for a GTG that I hosted for my friend who is the Melody importer for the US (Hugh with Angel City Audio). I got the benefit of being able to listen to these amps without having to pay for them
I have definitely seen Graham's pages and actually started a thread about Pensil Pics and Graham's were the first ones I linked to
Very nice looking speakers!I will take a look again at his system/review and see if I can gain any more insight. It doesn't seem like these (Pensils) are used as mains in a HT based system very often ...
Scott
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Hello again Mark, i'm jumping the gun here but recall something about sensitivity of the different wire windings from past discussions. So i'm wondering if in general a A12/rectangular wire windings would be the same as the current version or see a gain or lose of sensitivity?
Btw, sounds like the best of the A10.2 combined with the best attributes of the A12, i'm betting it'll be a killer driver, cant wait!
Mark,
I am breaking in my speakers and have a stupid question. how do i know how hard they are being pushed without some sort of measurement device? I have them playing on very low levels to the point where they are hard to hear with any other noise present. Is this sufficient or can i push them a little more. I can hardly tell the cone is even moving. In your break-in thread you speak of excursion when defining how hard they are being pushed. Is there a way to measure this with any accuracy? THanks!
I am breaking in my speakers and have a stupid question. how do i know how hard they are being pushed without some sort of measurement device? I have them playing on very low levels to the point where they are hard to hear with any other noise present. Is this sufficient or can i push them a little more. I can hardly tell the cone is even moving. In your break-in thread you speak of excursion when defining how hard they are being pushed. Is there a way to measure this with any accuracy? THanks!
This is a China made 8-inch paper cone full range driver, using a big TQWT cabinet. It is a high efficient full range driver at 95 dB. On listening and comparing this driver with Mark Pensil 12, Pensil 12 can achieve more balanced sound and deeper bass. There is no enough low range for this 8-inch driver. It is MDF cabinet with ebony veneer.
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That's my favorite veneer of all time. I used to have a set of Onix Rocket RS450's and the RSC200 center in Ebony. They were built by Sound Art China (SAC), I don't suppose this one of yours is too? The veneer looks exactly the same as what they used to put out.
My cabinets are not from SAC. May stick the ebony veneer from a same source. I like the textures of this black wood much more than this.
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