I recently decided to try the company PCBway.com for a couple of small PCB orders. This is a fab in China, and the cost is very low.
Initially I had good communication with a sales agent. I placed one order and I could see the progress on the production line using their on-line tracking tool.
I then placed another order.
So far I have only received the second order. This arrived at my door on time and looks OK visually.
Repeated inquiries with my agent and with the company via their web site about my first order now go unanswered. I understand the 18-hour time difference can cause a delay, so I always wait a day to see if I get a response. The company claims that they shipped the product to me and gives me a DHL tracking number. When I check it at DHL, it shows only that the information about the package was transmitted to DHL. That was over 2 weeks ago. There is no record of DHL ever getting the package from them. When I point this out to them, I get no response. I have opened a PayPal dispute over this case asking for my money back. I will definitely not use this fab again.
I wanted to post this warning in case others are considering this company for PCB fab. Beware!!!
Initially I had good communication with a sales agent. I placed one order and I could see the progress on the production line using their on-line tracking tool.
I then placed another order.
So far I have only received the second order. This arrived at my door on time and looks OK visually.
Repeated inquiries with my agent and with the company via their web site about my first order now go unanswered. I understand the 18-hour time difference can cause a delay, so I always wait a day to see if I get a response. The company claims that they shipped the product to me and gives me a DHL tracking number. When I check it at DHL, it shows only that the information about the package was transmitted to DHL. That was over 2 weeks ago. There is no record of DHL ever getting the package from them. When I point this out to them, I get no response. I have opened a PayPal dispute over this case asking for my money back. I will definitely not use this fab again.
I wanted to post this warning in case others are considering this company for PCB fab. Beware!!!
It's pretty obvious that PCBway is totally dropping the ball by no longer communicating with me. Before the problem, communication was pretty good. As soon as this happened (e.g. it became obvious that the package never made it to DHL) they went silent.
If I thought that the company was trying the slightest bit to make this right, or would be trying to work with DHL, I would feel differently. I asked them to please remake the order and send it to me, but by this time they had already stopped replying.
I have opened a PayPal dispute and hopefully I will at least get my money back since they cannot show that the shipment was delivered (or even picked up).
If I thought that the company was trying the slightest bit to make this right, or would be trying to work with DHL, I would feel differently. I asked them to please remake the order and send it to me, but by this time they had already stopped replying.
I have opened a PayPal dispute and hopefully I will at least get my money back since they cannot show that the shipment was delivered (or even picked up).
For large-size-board prototypes, I use an American company, PCBFabExpress. I order 5pcs. This is the most economical, and fastest.
For small board prototypes, Oshpark is also good. $5 per square inch. But beyond a certain size, it becomes very expensive than PCBFabExpress. (3) pcs per order.
For 50-100pcs or more, PCBCart can't be beaten. If I complain that a board was made wrong, (i.e. finished hole too small), they remade the boards and reshipped me my order. and if I re-order boards, and I changed some parameter (color, Cu thickness etc.) and prices changed, they refund any difference. (also goes the other way, they email me if I need to add a few more dollars
For small board prototypes, Oshpark is also good. $5 per square inch. But beyond a certain size, it becomes very expensive than PCBFabExpress. (3) pcs per order.
For 50-100pcs or more, PCBCart can't be beaten. If I complain that a board was made wrong, (i.e. finished hole too small), they remade the boards and reshipped me my order. and if I re-order boards, and I changed some parameter (color, Cu thickness etc.) and prices changed, they refund any difference. (also goes the other way, they email me if I need to add a few more dollars
Well I appreciate the heads up on PC-Way. I'd been using e-teknet for years and have had good results. But these days all my development is coming out of my own pocket. No sob stories, but lets just say my income these days is from savings, and I have to make every cent count. So having just got a quote for about $140 from E-teknet for 4 prototype 4 layer boards less than 4" x 2.5" (and that was their "special prototype" price), I decided I have to start trying in earnest to find a better deal. pcbway gave me a price of about $50 for 5 of the same boards, including shipping to the USA. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) the site would not let me create an account, as it did not like my email address. That I'm sure can be fixed, but now that I'm seeing this, I'm wondering is a guardian angel wasn't watching, and preventing me from starting an account.
My problem is that quite honestly, I've been designing PC layouts for more decades than I care to say. But despite all that wonderful experience, I don't think there has ever been a board which after being put to use, did not reveal that at least a version 2 was a good idea. Many companies will give you reasonable deal on quantities, but when you know theres a good chance there will be a revision, a low cost prototype path would sure be nice. And a big NO to PC express, or any other company that walls you into having to use their software, and charging you extra to produce Gerbers! In times past I would use PNP Blue with my trusty old laser printer, and as long as it was only a 2 layer board, I'd roll my own prototype. But today my "trusty" laser printer gave up the ghost. And there's at least 120 via and through holes to deal with on this board anyway. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and have it made somewhere. @ CharlieLaub .. on the second order which WAS delivered, were you satisfied with the quality?
My problem is that quite honestly, I've been designing PC layouts for more decades than I care to say. But despite all that wonderful experience, I don't think there has ever been a board which after being put to use, did not reveal that at least a version 2 was a good idea. Many companies will give you reasonable deal on quantities, but when you know theres a good chance there will be a revision, a low cost prototype path would sure be nice. And a big NO to PC express, or any other company that walls you into having to use their software, and charging you extra to produce Gerbers! In times past I would use PNP Blue with my trusty old laser printer, and as long as it was only a 2 layer board, I'd roll my own prototype. But today my "trusty" laser printer gave up the ghost. And there's at least 120 via and through holes to deal with on this board anyway. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and have it made somewhere. @ CharlieLaub .. on the second order which WAS delivered, were you satisfied with the quality?
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I checked out Real-PCB. I wouldn't say PCBCart is expensive. I'd say PCBCart and RealPCB are neck-and-neck for new orders.
For *my* board, with the selected options equivalent to PCBCart, RealPCB came out only $0.25 cheaper per board... ($25 savings for 100pcs) but if I'd have to pay tooling/setup costs at RealPCB (for a new order) it made it more expensive than my PCBCart re-order.
For *my* board, with the selected options equivalent to PCBCart, RealPCB came out only $0.25 cheaper per board... ($25 savings for 100pcs) but if I'd have to pay tooling/setup costs at RealPCB (for a new order) it made it more expensive than my PCBCart re-order.
I've used 4pcb.com for a long time, great for a few pieces of a larger board. Up to 60 sq. in 2 layers, or up to 30 sq. in. 4 layers,
it's $33 or $66 per board. There's about $20 s/h per order. Minimum order is 4 pcbs, but if you state that you're a student
in the comments box, you can order as few as one pcb.
Off Topic: Looks like I'll have to cut a bd myself again
Well I did enough poking around to realize that unless that PCBWAY turns out to be worth a shot, everybody is too expensive for a couple of prototypes. Too many times I've bit the bullet and spent the cash, and watched my NRE charge go South after i realized the board needed some mods. Second time is usually the charm for me, and if its a 4 layer board there's not many options. But today I just need 2 layers.
The good news is I managed to fix my laser printer! So I broke out the PNP-Blue, printed a board, mixed some etchant (the old 2 parts peroxide to 1 part Muriatic acid), and cut it. I hit it with my dwindling supply of "Liquid Tin". Results are in the links below. Not too many gaps, but I can see my registration is just slightly off, and that's going to make my near 100 50-Mil VIAS a bit iffy to drill and bridge. (I usually just snake bits of 'wire wrap" wire through them and solder both sides).
The only serious compromise I had to make was deleting all the nice "copper pour" areas, which would have made for a better shielded board since its pretty analog intensive. But at least it will prove the circuit, and show up any issues with the board fit in my intended enclosure, after all the jacks are mounted.
Don't get me wrong... the prices I'm hearing would not be terrible in the usual case. I used to not be such a cheapskate. But I'm unemployed now, and reaching for the moon trying to start a business making stuff. So my budget is such that I can't spend $150 on 4 or 5 dups of an unproven board. Even if it means a hard day's work ahead Monday. I would just rant, for what its worth, that its hard to believe in this day and age there is still no easy and cheap way to turn out pro quality boards with some cheap turn-key process. You'd think by now the whole process would be so end-to-end automated, that the only humans that would need to work in the factory would be the shipping department! Oh well... maybe in another 10 years. </rant>
Enjoy my photos of my messy garage made board, and giggle at the drilling with the micro bits I'm going to have to fuss with.
http://pixyland.org/temp/DSC09626 (Large).JPG
http://pixyland.org/temp/DSC09624 (Large).JPG
Well I did enough poking around to realize that unless that PCBWAY turns out to be worth a shot, everybody is too expensive for a couple of prototypes. Too many times I've bit the bullet and spent the cash, and watched my NRE charge go South after i realized the board needed some mods. Second time is usually the charm for me, and if its a 4 layer board there's not many options. But today I just need 2 layers.
The good news is I managed to fix my laser printer! So I broke out the PNP-Blue, printed a board, mixed some etchant (the old 2 parts peroxide to 1 part Muriatic acid), and cut it. I hit it with my dwindling supply of "Liquid Tin". Results are in the links below. Not too many gaps, but I can see my registration is just slightly off, and that's going to make my near 100 50-Mil VIAS a bit iffy to drill and bridge. (I usually just snake bits of 'wire wrap" wire through them and solder both sides).
The only serious compromise I had to make was deleting all the nice "copper pour" areas, which would have made for a better shielded board since its pretty analog intensive. But at least it will prove the circuit, and show up any issues with the board fit in my intended enclosure, after all the jacks are mounted.
Don't get me wrong... the prices I'm hearing would not be terrible in the usual case. I used to not be such a cheapskate. But I'm unemployed now, and reaching for the moon trying to start a business making stuff. So my budget is such that I can't spend $150 on 4 or 5 dups of an unproven board. Even if it means a hard day's work ahead Monday. I would just rant, for what its worth, that its hard to believe in this day and age there is still no easy and cheap way to turn out pro quality boards with some cheap turn-key process. You'd think by now the whole process would be so end-to-end automated, that the only humans that would need to work in the factory would be the shipping department! Oh well... maybe in another 10 years. </rant>
Enjoy my photos of my messy garage made board, and giggle at the drilling with the micro bits I'm going to have to fuss with.
http://pixyland.org/temp/DSC09626 (Large).JPG
http://pixyland.org/temp/DSC09624 (Large).JPG
I have an update on my saga with PCBway...
I kept pestering them for several more days, insisting that no my order was NOT shipped. I found it odd that the sales agent that I dealt with insisted that the problem was with DHL, when it was obvious from the tracking into that DHL never received the package from PCBway.
Finally they realized their mistake. They even managed to track down my order, and it was 2500 miles away, but in the USA. They had it shipped to me using overnight service, which I appreciated, but didn't tell my that they did this. Luckily I was home and not on vacation or away and the package arrived no worse for the wear. But when I opened the package, I found that they had produced the wrong revision of my board. So although after about 3 weeks I did get the board, they were not what I wanted.
Currently they are trying to figure out how much pie is on their face, and doing some backpedaling and so on. They have offered to make the "correct version" of the board, but I will believe it when I see it. That will be too late, unfortunately, to have them ready for a DIY event that I am attending this coming Saturday.
Judging the quality of the boards I would have to say they are pretty good. I didn't use any fine pitch SMD devices for these boards that might require more critical review, but I certainly don't see any issues. In fact the quality is pretty good.
I will give them another try. Their prices are REALLY LOW, and I hope that this is my one and only snafu with them. I'll post more info when I receive another order or two in the future.
I kept pestering them for several more days, insisting that no my order was NOT shipped. I found it odd that the sales agent that I dealt with insisted that the problem was with DHL, when it was obvious from the tracking into that DHL never received the package from PCBway.
Finally they realized their mistake. They even managed to track down my order, and it was 2500 miles away, but in the USA. They had it shipped to me using overnight service, which I appreciated, but didn't tell my that they did this. Luckily I was home and not on vacation or away and the package arrived no worse for the wear. But when I opened the package, I found that they had produced the wrong revision of my board. So although after about 3 weeks I did get the board, they were not what I wanted.
Currently they are trying to figure out how much pie is on their face, and doing some backpedaling and so on. They have offered to make the "correct version" of the board, but I will believe it when I see it. That will be too late, unfortunately, to have them ready for a DIY event that I am attending this coming Saturday.
Judging the quality of the boards I would have to say they are pretty good. I didn't use any fine pitch SMD devices for these boards that might require more critical review, but I certainly don't see any issues. In fact the quality is pretty good.
I will give them another try. Their prices are REALLY LOW, and I hope that this is my one and only snafu with them. I'll post more info when I receive another order or two in the future.
Well thanks for that! Maybe I can use them after all! Maybe I'll get to use my "garage" boards as some kind of necklace at a SCI-Fi convention or something!! I will say that I've come to expect occasional trouble with shipping once in a while, with all the China based goods I buy But the bottom line is that the company stands by their work. And I'm glad you confirmed the low prices, because I haven't been able to register on their site yet, and I still can't believe the online quote I got. For the boards I posted, it said something like $17 for 5 of those boards, and another $27 for shipping, for a total of $42. Really??? $42??? Woo-Hoo! Isn't that the answer to "life, the universe, and everything from Hitch=-hikers guide to the Galaxy? Well if its for real, it certainly is MY answer today, and they certainly will have my business Monday!
I used this site. PCB prototyping. Very cheap and very good results. I do loads of purchasing online every day so I know the value of not having to interact with people when ordering (99% of my online order hassles have been the person on the other end not paying attention). Everything is done through the website. No emailing files. No waiting for quotes.
I don't see that as necessarily a "problem" - it's actually honesty and enlightenment on your part. To start with, it show's you're not a know-it-all (so you are unlikely to become a manager). It's also an admission that no legitimate design ever anticipates all the subtleties of its implementation, or the uses it will be put to.
The REAL problem is that administrators and executives don't know this. There is almost never any planning for a second prototype. Heck, half the time there isn't even a provision for the FIRST prototype. Any half-way successful proof-of-concept effort kludged together on a bench gets labeled as a "new product" and dumped into manufacturing's lap. Manufacturing, in turn, complains that the design engineers can't differentiate between their derrieres and a ditch. Well, the complaint itself is justified - but they put the blame on the wrong people.
The thread " http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/228190-dirt-cheap-prototype-pcb-manufactory.html#post3333191 " includes useful comments on the topic of prototype PWB's. In a prior incarnation I had a need for a few prototype PWB's every 2 - 3 months. Somehow the word got out and my email was inundated with "special offers", "new customer deals", etc. By carefully sifting through them I could find the lowest cost option for a particular situation but it wasn't easy. One vendor offers no-charge shipping - another offers a 2-sided board for the 1-sided price - somebody else offers half-price for your first production order of a board built from the prototype Gerbers - etc. Of course, the per-board cost goes down as the order size increases, and the delivery time lengthens.
I must have dealt with at least half a dozen different vendors; at this point in time their names pretty much blur together. My board designs never pushed the limits of manufacturing capabilities but I never received an order that was of poor quality, or had errors attributable to the PWB manufacturer, or arrived more than a day late.
I am also surprised that a PWB which might have a unit cost of only $3.00 or $4.00 when purchased in thousands and delivered in 60 days, costs $75.00 to $100.00 each when you want 5 of them within 2 weeks. Yeah, I understand "setup costs" but this is still a HIGHLY automated process controlled by data in digital files. With all the constraints placed on the design (copper geometry, limited number of hole sizes, etc) there honestly doesn't seem to be much "setup" required.
I hope you do well with your business venture! I struggled as a free-lance design engineer for most of a decade and finally had to admit that I failed at yet another job. It generally took me at least twice as long - maybe as much as 10 times as long - as a normal person to create and prove any non-trivial design. Now I'm doing production labor for a flat $13/hr (no vacation, no retirement, no health insurance, etc). I stuff and solder PCB assemblies, crimp terminals on cables, do point-to-point wiring, load plastic panels into a CNC machine, dress and trim the machined plastic parts.
But last week my boss gave me an additional assignment! I get to design a UHF field-strength indicator from scratch. I'm supposed to use the 10- and 20-minute stretches of idle time that arise during normal production. I have to provide the EDA tools (pwb layout, circuit sim, etc). Keep the development and prototype costs under $100. And have a working prototype ready for manufacture by next week. (This is the outfit that couldn't tell me, on my first day of work, whether they used leaded or unleaded solder.) Looks like I'm about to get fired again . . .
Dale
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