Hi Al,
Rubber banding (like in Microcap) can become messy. I like it when dragging components, the connections stay orthogonal, much more easy to rework. I have the feeling that some things are “over automated”. But honestly I have not worked long enough with it to judge that on its merits.
Cheers
Rubber banding (like in Microcap) can become messy. I like it when dragging components, the connections stay orthogonal, much more easy to rework. I have the feeling that some things are “over automated”. But honestly I have not worked long enough with it to judge that on its merits.
Cheers
Below is an excerpt of an email I sent about my $3000 version of the EWB design suite. Sure wish I could get my money back, or at least get them to acknowledge my concerns.
I design and/or clone circuit boards for use mostly in refurbishing older electronic control systems for which support has been discontinued by the OEM. I have used an old DOS version of ORCAD for several years and recently upgraded to your power-pro suite. I am mostly pleased with your product but frankly, I am surprised by the limitations. I debated between the latest version of ORCAD and your product but chose yours because I liked the user interface, especially the 3D and birds eye views which are helpful when placing components. I am disappointed however in the technical documentation and the lack of options especially in the board routing module.
I have been in extensive contact with Mr. Tien Pham of your Technical Support department and have kept an extensive collection of emails from him explaining some of the hidden and/or cryptic functions and options of the software. Why isn’t this information in your technical documentation? The User Guides are huge, but contains very little useful information. For instance, in the Ultiboard User’s Manual, page 7-3, step 7.1.2, “Placing a Trace: Manual Method”, consists of 6 steps which describe the basics of manually placing a trace. What isn’t explained is how to do something a fundamental as setting the trace width before you start routing the trace. I communicated a couple of times with Mr. Pham and learned this can be selected from a drop-down list of trace widths which defaults to only one choice, “Automatic (10.0000 mil). By playing with is, I did discover I can add other trace widths to the list, in fact I added 4 different widths, 3 of which I can select, the other is on the list (I can’t seem to remove it), but not selectable. There are other seemingly basic options which your competitors and even shareware programs offer which your product doesn’t, like the ability to choose whether to use 45 degree (your default) or 90 degree transitions when placing traces and the ability to round (miter) the corners for board outlines. Mr. Pham has provided me with the work-arounds for these limitations, but they aren’t very user friendly. I have similar issues with Multisim.
I design and/or clone circuit boards for use mostly in refurbishing older electronic control systems for which support has been discontinued by the OEM. I have used an old DOS version of ORCAD for several years and recently upgraded to your power-pro suite. I am mostly pleased with your product but frankly, I am surprised by the limitations. I debated between the latest version of ORCAD and your product but chose yours because I liked the user interface, especially the 3D and birds eye views which are helpful when placing components. I am disappointed however in the technical documentation and the lack of options especially in the board routing module.
I have been in extensive contact with Mr. Tien Pham of your Technical Support department and have kept an extensive collection of emails from him explaining some of the hidden and/or cryptic functions and options of the software. Why isn’t this information in your technical documentation? The User Guides are huge, but contains very little useful information. For instance, in the Ultiboard User’s Manual, page 7-3, step 7.1.2, “Placing a Trace: Manual Method”, consists of 6 steps which describe the basics of manually placing a trace. What isn’t explained is how to do something a fundamental as setting the trace width before you start routing the trace. I communicated a couple of times with Mr. Pham and learned this can be selected from a drop-down list of trace widths which defaults to only one choice, “Automatic (10.0000 mil). By playing with is, I did discover I can add other trace widths to the list, in fact I added 4 different widths, 3 of which I can select, the other is on the list (I can’t seem to remove it), but not selectable. There are other seemingly basic options which your competitors and even shareware programs offer which your product doesn’t, like the ability to choose whether to use 45 degree (your default) or 90 degree transitions when placing traces and the ability to round (miter) the corners for board outlines. Mr. Pham has provided me with the work-arounds for these limitations, but they aren’t very user friendly. I have similar issues with Multisim.
acenovelty said:
They also offer a Non-Profit license for the Standard version for $125.
The problem I ran into when designing a replacement board for my SE40 tube amp was non of the free or lite versions provided enough pins (+500), components or board size (14x7). The DipTrace non-profit license provided all of this and more for a very fair price, IMO.
As for components, you can create your own library and add whichever components you want to it, which makes locating the ones you use regularly very easy. Overall, it is a very nice program, though I haven't been able to figure out how to manually place via's, which is a big drawback.
Wade
After lots of fiddling with all the others, I gave up and learned how to use Kicad.
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
It has all the drawbacks of all other programs except for the price. This electronic workbench is free of charges and is open source (GPL). It is useful for everybody working in electronic design (schematic diagrams and Printed Board up to 16 layers).
Don't trust the embedded programs printing as it is not even close to being accurate. Despite repeatedly calling this to their attention, it is still not fixed. The overall attitude is that the printing works OK and that the problem must be my printer. Solution....?
Get PDFCreator here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator
Will even make a tiff file of your drawing at 1200 dpi.
Learn to use it and get on with life. Remember what you paid.
No program under several thousand dollars is great. But Kicad will do what you're after and more.
Regards
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
It has all the drawbacks of all other programs except for the price. This electronic workbench is free of charges and is open source (GPL). It is useful for everybody working in electronic design (schematic diagrams and Printed Board up to 16 layers).
Don't trust the embedded programs printing as it is not even close to being accurate. Despite repeatedly calling this to their attention, it is still not fixed. The overall attitude is that the printing works OK and that the problem must be my printer. Solution....?
Get PDFCreator here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator
Will even make a tiff file of your drawing at 1200 dpi.
Learn to use it and get on with life. Remember what you paid.
No program under several thousand dollars is great. But Kicad will do what you're after and more.
Regards
Even the high end PCB software has plenty of problems, hving been badly bitten by Visula, Mentor and Orcad over the years.
We still use the old DOS/Win95 Protel in the office as we are comfortable with its bugs.
Kicad looks very promising and the GNU PCB software which has an autorouter, something missing from most low cost tools, although a good layout technician can do a much better job than any autorouted board that I have ever seen.
We still use the old DOS/Win95 Protel in the office as we are comfortable with its bugs.
Kicad looks very promising and the GNU PCB software which has an autorouter, something missing from most low cost tools, although a good layout technician can do a much better job than any autorouted board that I have ever seen.
I've also tried many different PCB packages, with the goal of finding one that:
1. Has enough common DIY components both in schematic and PCB part.
2. Has a decent autorouter to do the bulk of the work, I can finish up by hand.
3. Has an integrated Spice simulator.
4. Is easy to use "out of the box" (usable libraries etc.).
So far, the top list has been 3. Eagle, 2. Electronic Workbench, 1. CircuitMaker.
Unfortunately, CircuitMaker has been abandonware since 2001, Electronic Workbench changed into high-capability/high-price package called Multisim/Ultiboard.
I greatly prefer CircuitMaker to Eagle for some reason. It is very easy to use, but it does have a few quirks, ie. it's very complicated to add a new Spice models, the simulation doesn't look right (or it could be the models I've added?), and the autorouter has a nasty habit of not doing it quite right. It leaves double-back traces even though the option to remove them is ticked, and is determined to connect the traces the way they are drawn in the schematic, from nearest to furthest. It could be that it is optimized for a multi-layer boards, though...
For example, components A B C D are connected in that order in schematic, but on the board they are placed as A D B C. The thing is determined to place a track from A to B to C to D no matter what, creating a mess in the process.
Even with all these faults, it is still very usable for DIY. and it hasn't left me with a wrongly-connected board yet. Both symbols and PCB footprints are very easy to add, runs on XP SP2 without a problem, and it isn't very resource-hungry at all (it is 2001 vintage, you know).
http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html
Anything that costs thousands is really an overkill for DIY. WHo here needs a PCB software that has 120,000 parts, can do a 36-layer board, and a 400-page schematic? A fellow that does all the projects for an Australian electronics magazine still uses Protel Easytrax/Autotrax and swears by it.
1. Has enough common DIY components both in schematic and PCB part.
2. Has a decent autorouter to do the bulk of the work, I can finish up by hand.
3. Has an integrated Spice simulator.
4. Is easy to use "out of the box" (usable libraries etc.).
So far, the top list has been 3. Eagle, 2. Electronic Workbench, 1. CircuitMaker.
Unfortunately, CircuitMaker has been abandonware since 2001, Electronic Workbench changed into high-capability/high-price package called Multisim/Ultiboard.
I greatly prefer CircuitMaker to Eagle for some reason. It is very easy to use, but it does have a few quirks, ie. it's very complicated to add a new Spice models, the simulation doesn't look right (or it could be the models I've added?), and the autorouter has a nasty habit of not doing it quite right. It leaves double-back traces even though the option to remove them is ticked, and is determined to connect the traces the way they are drawn in the schematic, from nearest to furthest. It could be that it is optimized for a multi-layer boards, though...
For example, components A B C D are connected in that order in schematic, but on the board they are placed as A D B C. The thing is determined to place a track from A to B to C to D no matter what, creating a mess in the process.
Even with all these faults, it is still very usable for DIY. and it hasn't left me with a wrongly-connected board yet. Both symbols and PCB footprints are very easy to add, runs on XP SP2 without a problem, and it isn't very resource-hungry at all (it is 2001 vintage, you know).
http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html
Anything that costs thousands is really an overkill for DIY. WHo here needs a PCB software that has 120,000 parts, can do a 36-layer board, and a 400-page schematic? A fellow that does all the projects for an Australian electronics magazine still uses Protel Easytrax/Autotrax and swears by it.
AutoTrax under Windows XP
Since folks here are interested in good PCB layout tools at low cost, let me put in my 2 cents for Protel AutoTrax (the DOS version that used to sell for hundreds of bucks but is now freeware from the Altium site).
And if you use it and keep your Windows XP up to date, you will find that MS broke the DOS emulator with one of their security fixes. Hmmm...
But there is a nice program to the rescue, DOSbox, a freeware written by some DOS games afficionados, that is actually faster than the old MS emulator.
I never use autorouting, so I don't have an opinion about that aspect of AutoTrax.
If you run W98 you won't need to make any changes - AutoTrax runs great.
And Airborne electronics has released a bunch of - also free - video drivers to run on higher resolutions screens. And a .pcx output for the printer-plotter module that allows you to print in 1200dpi or whatever from any graphics program.
Of course if you're intimidated by the c: prompt, you'll have a bit of a learning curve. But it has pro gerber outputs, NC drill files, does multilayer, etc.
More oriented to through-hole designs than SMT, though.
Since folks here are interested in good PCB layout tools at low cost, let me put in my 2 cents for Protel AutoTrax (the DOS version that used to sell for hundreds of bucks but is now freeware from the Altium site).
And if you use it and keep your Windows XP up to date, you will find that MS broke the DOS emulator with one of their security fixes. Hmmm...
But there is a nice program to the rescue, DOSbox, a freeware written by some DOS games afficionados, that is actually faster than the old MS emulator.
I never use autorouting, so I don't have an opinion about that aspect of AutoTrax.
If you run W98 you won't need to make any changes - AutoTrax runs great.
And Airborne electronics has released a bunch of - also free - video drivers to run on higher resolutions screens. And a .pcx output for the printer-plotter module that allows you to print in 1200dpi or whatever from any graphics program.
Of course if you're intimidated by the c: prompt, you'll have a bit of a learning curve. But it has pro gerber outputs, NC drill files, does multilayer, etc.
More oriented to through-hole designs than SMT, though.
Hi Andrew,
I've been running Autotrax with DOSbox regularly and it behaves well. You will probably want to use different components from the standard libraries but they are a cinch to make. It will do SMT layout but it's not it's forte.
Run DOSbox with speed set about 3500. I you have other questions, pm me.
I've been running Autotrax with DOSbox regularly and it behaves well. You will probably want to use different components from the standard libraries but they are a cinch to make. It will do SMT layout but it's not it's forte.
Run DOSbox with speed set about 3500. I you have other questions, pm me.
FWIW, for many years I've used SuperCAD SuperPCB from Mental Automation. They have their bugs, but get the job done for a reasonable price. They sell an autorouter, but I don't need that for audio stuff. I have one requirement for a PCB program- it has to be able to generate a netlist from the schematic, and a netlist from the layout, and compare them for errors. Any high end program does this, but not all the hobbyist programs.
For mechanical work, if you don't need a 3D program, nothing can beat VisualCADD. If some PCB program designer would look at the VC interface (and lack of bugs) and make a PCB program that worked half as well, they'd own the market.
For mechanical work, if you don't need a 3D program, nothing can beat VisualCADD. If some PCB program designer would look at the VC interface (and lack of bugs) and make a PCB program that worked half as well, they'd own the market.
KiCad and Design Spark are both free PCB layout software. I plan to try both since Autodesk now owns Eagle and wants $1K per year for the version that can do the large sized PCB's that I need for vacuum tube amps.
Some discussion is in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/307378-tube-circuit-drawing-software.html
Some discussion is in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/307378-tube-circuit-drawing-software.html
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