Hi Jkeny
I will rewire for dual amping when I get the Power Caps in. This will be coming from the SBR and SBL- which is located on the center connector that I left out. I think dual amp will only be engaged if I run it in stereo mode on the SAXR55. I think SAXR57 is better setup for this. The SR+ and SL- is also on this center connector, which I will also rewire when I put in the new caps.
The new center perf board will host the new power caps. The new caps will sit between the leads from the PSU and the Mainboard. This is when I will upsize the 4 parallel power lines too. I will add a shield between the new caps and the speaker lines.
The large cap is the C707, 820uF/200V. It is actually a ED series cap. There are a few higher caps in this line we could upgrade it too, but I'm not sure if it will be worth while. I actually have a 2200uF/200V ED cap replacement here that has a lower ESR value and higher ripple current. I haven't decided if I want to risk it yet.
Regarding the inductors. I'm not sure why there are two for each channel. We need to look into this further. I haven't noticed any crosstalk but I will see if adding a shielding plate between each channel is feasible. There are lots of little pieces in there, I'm not sure if there is room on the board itself, but we can always rig something up that can span the shielding plate. Both sides of the main board is carrying current so we have to careful here.
I will rewire for dual amping when I get the Power Caps in. This will be coming from the SBR and SBL- which is located on the center connector that I left out. I think dual amp will only be engaged if I run it in stereo mode on the SAXR55. I think SAXR57 is better setup for this. The SR+ and SL- is also on this center connector, which I will also rewire when I put in the new caps.
The new center perf board will host the new power caps. The new caps will sit between the leads from the PSU and the Mainboard. This is when I will upsize the 4 parallel power lines too. I will add a shield between the new caps and the speaker lines.
The large cap is the C707, 820uF/200V. It is actually a ED series cap. There are a few higher caps in this line we could upgrade it too, but I'm not sure if it will be worth while. I actually have a 2200uF/200V ED cap replacement here that has a lower ESR value and higher ripple current. I haven't decided if I want to risk it yet.
Regarding the inductors. I'm not sure why there are two for each channel. We need to look into this further. I haven't noticed any crosstalk but I will see if adding a shielding plate between each channel is feasible. There are lots of little pieces in there, I'm not sure if there is room on the board itself, but we can always rig something up that can span the shielding plate. Both sides of the main board is carrying current so we have to careful here.
eld said:
From what I read this is where the Jensen 4 pole capacitor was used by Wayne at Boulder Co. I believe any improvement to the PS will be worthwhile.
The XR45 is rated as best sounding model because of the extra filtering in the PS. Did you ever get a schematic for XR45? Does anybody here have the schematic?
Any power conditioning seems worthwhile
Looks like the output inductors are no problem as they are http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116777
This thread outlines mods to the XR45: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=13996.0
most of which we already know except for the last mod which is a clock add-in to feed a clean clock to the DIR chip. In the XR45 it's a 25MHz clock, in the XR55/57 this seems to be a 12MHz clock signal to pin 18 of dsp (X1)
As well as being able to input I2S digital input, this seems a worthwhile jitter lowering mod!
I have uploaded the Panny SA-XR45 schematic and from looking at the PS section the differences compared to other models has got to do with the DC to DC converters that are on page 38.
How easy or otherwise would it be to use some of the schematic ideas for implementing in other models 55/57 for the benefits that seem to beassociated with the XR45?
http://www.4shared.com/dir/5422093/4db6362a/Digital_Amps_Service_Manuals.html
How easy or otherwise would it be to use some of the schematic ideas for implementing in other models 55/57 for the benefits that seem to beassociated with the XR45?
http://www.4shared.com/dir/5422093/4db6362a/Digital_Amps_Service_Manuals.html
Hi Jkeny,
Just want to post an update on the Power Caps mod. I have a chance to try the Elna Silmic II and Nichicon Muse KZ in the system between the Power Board and the Main Board.
Although both of these are pretty good. I did not notice any significant change to the stock caps. It is probably best to just add more XE caps for the added power.
Currently I'm running the Panny with (8) 1000uF/50v Nichicon Muse KZ and trying some bypass caps to see how it pans out. The bypass caps are Sonicap Gen I, Dayton Film and Foil, and Vishay Orange Drop. All are .47uF with one each per Nichicon. I will let you know things shape up in about a week. The bypass is needed with the Nichicon Muse to just get close to the high end resolution of the water caps and ZE combo. So far I have noticed there is a slight improvement in the mids, but the highs and transparency is still a little off from the stock caps. I think a few more bypass caps are needed or I just need to wait for the break-in. I will update once I get all the caps burn in and play around with different combination.
So far the power cord and rewiring have really proved the most significant mods. I haven't a chance to look at the SAXR45, but I think the Power Supply section can be used to help the later generation. I really don't think the SAXR45 without the water caps can really match the later generation in transparency and detail though.
Just want to post an update on the Power Caps mod. I have a chance to try the Elna Silmic II and Nichicon Muse KZ in the system between the Power Board and the Main Board.
Although both of these are pretty good. I did not notice any significant change to the stock caps. It is probably best to just add more XE caps for the added power.
Currently I'm running the Panny with (8) 1000uF/50v Nichicon Muse KZ and trying some bypass caps to see how it pans out. The bypass caps are Sonicap Gen I, Dayton Film and Foil, and Vishay Orange Drop. All are .47uF with one each per Nichicon. I will let you know things shape up in about a week. The bypass is needed with the Nichicon Muse to just get close to the high end resolution of the water caps and ZE combo. So far I have noticed there is a slight improvement in the mids, but the highs and transparency is still a little off from the stock caps. I think a few more bypass caps are needed or I just need to wait for the break-in. I will update once I get all the caps burn in and play around with different combination.
So far the power cord and rewiring have really proved the most significant mods. I haven't a chance to look at the SAXR45, but I think the Power Supply section can be used to help the later generation. I really don't think the SAXR45 without the water caps can really match the later generation in transparency and detail though.
Thanks for the update eld,
From your testing, it seems hard to beat these "Pure Water" capacitors - these got a lot of disdain heaped on them over at DiyHifi http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1039&hilit=pure+water+capacitor
but nobody bothered to try them!
The Hypex audiophile bypass capacitors may be better than the XE, ZE caps but who knows what brand/price they are? I think Hypex just re-label them for their UCDxxxHG modules?
I've printed off all 246 pages of the thread "Anyone interested in a Digital Amplifier" and am reading through it again - I'd forgotten how much information Brian Brown discovered & reported about the SA-XR10!
Did you try dual/triple amping yet (by just tying together the correct multiple outputs to a single speaker)? How does it sound?
Keep up the good work!
From your testing, it seems hard to beat these "Pure Water" capacitors - these got a lot of disdain heaped on them over at DiyHifi http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1039&hilit=pure+water+capacitor
but nobody bothered to try them!
The Hypex audiophile bypass capacitors may be better than the XE, ZE caps but who knows what brand/price they are? I think Hypex just re-label them for their UCDxxxHG modules?
I've printed off all 246 pages of the thread "Anyone interested in a Digital Amplifier" and am reading through it again - I'd forgotten how much information Brian Brown discovered & reported about the SA-XR10!
Did you try dual/triple amping yet (by just tying together the correct multiple outputs to a single speaker)? How does it sound?
Keep up the good work!
Hi guys,
I'm not an incessant poster honest!
I do have a genuine question - does anybody know how/where I can translate the Panasonic Part numbers given in these service manuals into actual part identifiers i.e brand/model no, etc?
I would like to know what smd caps are being used for instance before blindly replacing/bypassing with a cap whose impedance may be inferior! Afterall, Panasonic do make some very good caps such as FM,FC electros & SPCap in smd - I'm sure there are others. So just blindly bypassing/replacing some caps may well be throwing out the good!
I'm not an incessant poster honest!
I do have a genuine question - does anybody know how/where I can translate the Panasonic Part numbers given in these service manuals into actual part identifiers i.e brand/model no, etc?
I would like to know what smd caps are being used for instance before blindly replacing/bypassing with a cap whose impedance may be inferior! Afterall, Panasonic do make some very good caps such as FM,FC electros & SPCap in smd - I'm sure there are others. So just blindly bypassing/replacing some caps may well be throwing out the good!
Hi Jkeny,
Just a little update on the power caps upgrade. The Vishay are still burning in, but they are at a point good enough that I have settle with the Vishay orange caps and the Nichicon KZ as the combination of choice for my system and speakers. I can easily see where the Sonicaps or Dayton F&F can match better with other type of speakers. If you can easily get a hold of the Elna Silmic II in the 1000uF/50V version over there, they are indeed a worthy consideration as well. At the 1000uF rating, the Elna are listed larger than the Nichicon which is almost twice as big as the ZE. They should provide a good power supply base.
The additional caps result in a little more refinement, detail, and better midrange. I managed to squeeze (10) pairs of Vishay and Nichicon between the main and power boards. If you plan ahead carefully, I think (4) more pairs can be incorporated at this location. I have drilled some holes in the chassis over the power section to help on cooling since the new caps are blocking a lot of air flow. I will try to post some pics later.
Dual and Tri Amping will improve the resolution and soundstage a little more, but I will not rewire for this until I have done all the caps mod. I also want to keep my center and mains at the same power level, so I might not dual amp at all. Maybe dual amp all three channels and forget the rears?
Just a little update on the power caps upgrade. The Vishay are still burning in, but they are at a point good enough that I have settle with the Vishay orange caps and the Nichicon KZ as the combination of choice for my system and speakers. I can easily see where the Sonicaps or Dayton F&F can match better with other type of speakers. If you can easily get a hold of the Elna Silmic II in the 1000uF/50V version over there, they are indeed a worthy consideration as well. At the 1000uF rating, the Elna are listed larger than the Nichicon which is almost twice as big as the ZE. They should provide a good power supply base.
The additional caps result in a little more refinement, detail, and better midrange. I managed to squeeze (10) pairs of Vishay and Nichicon between the main and power boards. If you plan ahead carefully, I think (4) more pairs can be incorporated at this location. I have drilled some holes in the chassis over the power section to help on cooling since the new caps are blocking a lot of air flow. I will try to post some pics later.
Dual and Tri Amping will improve the resolution and soundstage a little more, but I will not rewire for this until I have done all the caps mod. I also want to keep my center and mains at the same power level, so I might not dual amp at all. Maybe dual amp all three channels and forget the rears?
Hi eld,
Thanks again for update - I have some nice Evox-Rifa 4700uF 63V caps that I might try if the size fits!
You have 8,000uF in there now? Not a huge amount of improvement though, eh! What other cap mods are you looking at?
I've checked the part nos. on the bypass caps of the digital ICs & they seem to be Panasonic FK caps which according to the datasheet are 40%-60% lower impednace tha FM (from memory) - I doubt you could improve this - low impedance is important in that position.
Have you looked at improvements in the crystal osc? I have a 12 MHz crystek osc which is low ppm that I will check if suitable!
To dual/triple amp I was thinking of just linking the relevant speaker posts outside the amp & then selecting dual/triple amping on the remote! Can't see why this wouldn't work, rather than hard wiring it internally!
Thanks again for update - I have some nice Evox-Rifa 4700uF 63V caps that I might try if the size fits!
You have 8,000uF in there now? Not a huge amount of improvement though, eh! What other cap mods are you looking at?
I've checked the part nos. on the bypass caps of the digital ICs & they seem to be Panasonic FK caps which according to the datasheet are 40%-60% lower impednace tha FM (from memory) - I doubt you could improve this - low impedance is important in that position.
Have you looked at improvements in the crystal osc? I have a 12 MHz crystek osc which is low ppm that I will check if suitable!
To dual/triple amp I was thinking of just linking the relevant speaker posts outside the amp & then selecting dual/triple amping on the remote! Can't see why this wouldn't work, rather than hard wiring it internally!
There is actually an additional 10,000uF in there now; I was able to squeeze in (2) more Nichicon to the original setup. I'm want to add more power caps, maybe another 10,000uF. I think there is room around the front panel, but I need to see how to run the power wires. I still haven't really found a good place to anchor the positive side of the power line to the main board, yet. I think the improvement is worthwhile, especially with all the power wires upgraded. I'm a little spoil when it comes to the bass department due to my sub, so I can't really judge the bass improvements too much. I'm very happy with all the upgrades so far, though. I don't know why Panasonic wants to run our first few feet of speaker wires with 20-24 AWG cables, but they did.
Possible caps I want to update are some on the incoming RCA lines, the speaker filter caps and the C707.
The processing section will be the next thing I will look into. I know that the RCA inputs and wires should be upgraded if I want to use the newer high definition DVD player RCA feeds.
What do you think of upgrading the main Transformer?
Using the speaker posts to dual/tri amping is a great idea. I think we can get some quality Y connectors and this should be a feasible route. The SAXR55 unfortunately doesn't have a dual/tri amping mode on the remote, but I can push the speaker B button on the front panel for dual amping the mains.
Looking forward to when you can join in on all the mods. What's the status of your unit now?
Possible caps I want to update are some on the incoming RCA lines, the speaker filter caps and the C707.
The processing section will be the next thing I will look into. I know that the RCA inputs and wires should be upgraded if I want to use the newer high definition DVD player RCA feeds.
What do you think of upgrading the main Transformer?
Using the speaker posts to dual/tri amping is a great idea. I think we can get some quality Y connectors and this should be a feasible route. The SAXR55 unfortunately doesn't have a dual/tri amping mode on the remote, but I can push the speaker B button on the front panel for dual amping the mains.
Looking forward to when you can join in on all the mods. What's the status of your unit now?
First off, the status is my amp is still with my friends bro-in-law in New York & he's flying over beginning of March, I hope. Looking forward to joining in too although I want to let it burn in first & get used to the sound so I can judge if a change is an improvement or not!
I wouldn't touch the transformer! Remember this is an SMPS not a linear supply. Anyway transformers hardly ever need changing for better sonics.
I think you said C707 was a Panasonic ED cap - these have a high ripple current capability according to the datasheet - this is exactly what you want here to suppress any ripple coming from the bridge. This is where the Jensen 4 pole cap was used by others but this is a $30 boutique part & I don't know how much better the ripple suppression in the Jensen cap is. Using another Panny ed cap would probably be good. Is this where diminishing returns start to kick in? I wonder if an external power conditioner would be money better spent?
Do you mean a clock upgrade? I believe pin 18 X1 on DSP IC IC1007 (Yamaha Yss944 DSP) is where to connect the new low-jitter 12.288MHz clock to! Of course the trace to pin 18 would need cut & joined to the clock output output
I thought the speaker posts idea was good! - that way we can still connect it up as a 5 speaker HT system if we want by disconnecting the external links between speaker posts! So it still gives this flexibility although manually implemented
I wouldn't touch the transformer! Remember this is an SMPS not a linear supply. Anyway transformers hardly ever need changing for better sonics.
I think you said C707 was a Panasonic ED cap - these have a high ripple current capability according to the datasheet - this is exactly what you want here to suppress any ripple coming from the bridge. This is where the Jensen 4 pole cap was used by others but this is a $30 boutique part & I don't know how much better the ripple suppression in the Jensen cap is. Using another Panny ed cap would probably be good. Is this where diminishing returns start to kick in? I wonder if an external power conditioner would be money better spent?
I'm not sure I follow you here?
Do you mean a clock upgrade? I believe pin 18 X1 on DSP IC IC1007 (Yamaha Yss944 DSP) is where to connect the new low-jitter 12.288MHz clock to! Of course the trace to pin 18 would need cut & joined to the clock output output
I thought the speaker posts idea was good! - that way we can still connect it up as a 5 speaker HT system if we want by disconnecting the external links between speaker posts! So it still gives this flexibility although manually implemented
This is exactly what I'm considering, Jkeny. I already have a 2200uF/200V ED cap here. It has a lower ESR and higher Ripple Current value than the stock 820uF (SAXR55) and hopefully this change will make an improvement.
The SAXR55 will have to use its 5.1 channels anolog connections for the HD audio format, since it lacks HDMI capability. This is where I like to upgrade the wiring and RCA connections.
Correction, the clean clock that needs to be supplied is a 24.576MHz & it is best done to the DIR ic IC1008 an AKM AK4114 chip (AFAIK). the clock input needs to go to pin 30 XT1. This then distributes the correct clock freq to the PWM chips. Here's the experience of Mike (Hanguy) from here http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=13996.0
Wow, nice find on the article, jkeny.
I'm definitely interested in upgrading the clock. Mike (hanguy) mods are all worth following. I quickly checked Hagclock and it seems like the 24.5Mhz version is no longer available?
I really like the subwoofer mod where he removed the two muting transitors. I think I will try it this weekend. Will let you know how it goes.
I'm definitely interested in upgrading the clock. Mike (hanguy) mods are all worth following. I quickly checked Hagclock and it seems like the 24.5Mhz version is no longer available?
I really like the subwoofer mod where he removed the two muting transitors. I think I will try it this weekend. Will let you know how it goes.
Hi eld,
How did the weekend experiments go?
I found more info on clock - best place for low jitter TCXO 24.576MHz clock is probably Guido Tent - he has a reputation in the field & clock prices are good http://www.tentlabs.com/Components/XO/index.html
You will need a PS with this & you could do one yourself given on the site or use the low noise shunt regulator which he also sells (clock + shunt regualtor is less than the price of the Hagclock, I think)
Also, either of these 2 Cos. sell clocks & PCBs although I would still buy the clock from Guido!
http://209.85.135.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=zh|en&u=http://shop.hifidiy.net/product/152.htm
http://diykits.com.hk/
How did the weekend experiments go?
I found more info on clock - best place for low jitter TCXO 24.576MHz clock is probably Guido Tent - he has a reputation in the field & clock prices are good http://www.tentlabs.com/Components/XO/index.html
You will need a PS with this & you could do one yourself given on the site or use the low noise shunt regulator which he also sells (clock + shunt regualtor is less than the price of the Hagclock, I think)
Also, either of these 2 Cos. sell clocks & PCBs although I would still buy the clock from Guido!
http://209.85.135.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=zh|en&u=http://shop.hifidiy.net/product/152.htm
http://diykits.com.hk/
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