If this is a room response then this is typical. If its gated then I'm guessing that there is still a reflection within the window. Holes like that - very sharp - can only be caused by a reflection of some sort. But it could be diffraction from the cabinet or something nearby.
A "good" polar response would have all the curves from 0 - 30 degrees lie within a +- 2 dB window. On your 150 dB scale thats basically a thick line.
A "good" polar response would have all the curves from 0 - 30 degrees lie within a +- 2 dB window. On your 150 dB scale thats basically a thick line.
auplater,
How are you measuring? Moving the mic around or rotating the speaker? Rotating the speaker and keeping the mic fixed will generally give a more consistent result.
I'm guessing this isn't windowed, it would have a lot poorer resolution (look oddly smooth) near 200Hz if it were, Unless you were measuring in a huge room. Having measured some BG quasi-ribbons quasi-anechoicly I'd say they are a lot smoother than that, at least before the room gets involved much. They are kind of funny though in that the very high frequencies tend to drop off if you measure too near.
How are you measuring? Moving the mic around or rotating the speaker? Rotating the speaker and keeping the mic fixed will generally give a more consistent result.
I'm guessing this isn't windowed, it would have a lot poorer resolution (look oddly smooth) near 200Hz if it were, Unless you were measuring in a huge room. Having measured some BG quasi-ribbons quasi-anechoicly I'd say they are a lot smoother than that, at least before the room gets involved much. They are kind of funny though in that the very high frequencies tend to drop off if you measure too near.
Re: scales
I don't know how you can state this. There is a lot of evidence (Toole, Geddes) that a comprehensive set of measurements of a speaker tells you a lot about how it's going to sound. It sounds to me like you are dismissing this in order to avoid accountability (it doesn't matter that what I was doing doesn't make any sense because I wasn't trying and it doesn't matter anyway).
They are of a single driver in an IB, half-space setup (I have said that, twice). The data is 1/48 octave and is unsmoothed. The measurements are not of a system. I put them up to (1) demonstrate what I meant by normalized to the listening window and (2) for comparison with a dipole-baffled midrange.
I don't believe I've ever claimed anything like that. In fact, I haven't listed any measurements of any system I have. What I want to see is evidence supporting the claims being made about the Orion and Nao systems, or about any other dipole systems. I think it is a reasonable request given the claims made. I'm sorry (well, not really) if the fact that I'm more interested in obtaining the truth than making everyone feel good upsets you. The fact of the matter is that most of the measurements posted around the internet and on this forum are either taken under crappy conditions, not high enough resolution, not comprehensive enough, or displayed inappropriately. If someone wants to use those to analyze and design their system, well, whatever... I'm just asking here if there are any decent measurements available. I'm still waiting to see just what these systems do.
auplater said:
I don't know how you can state this. There is a lot of evidence (Toole, Geddes) that a comprehensive set of measurements of a speaker tells you a lot about how it's going to sound. It sounds to me like you are dismissing this in order to avoid accountability (it doesn't matter that what I was doing doesn't make any sense because I wasn't trying and it doesn't matter anyway).
auplater said:
They are of a single driver in an IB, half-space setup (I have said that, twice). The data is 1/48 octave and is unsmoothed. The measurements are not of a system. I put them up to (1) demonstrate what I meant by normalized to the listening window and (2) for comparison with a dipole-baffled midrange.
auplater said:
I don't believe I've ever claimed anything like that. In fact, I haven't listed any measurements of any system I have. What I want to see is evidence supporting the claims being made about the Orion and Nao systems, or about any other dipole systems. I think it is a reasonable request given the claims made. I'm sorry (well, not really) if the fact that I'm more interested in obtaining the truth than making everyone feel good upsets you. The fact of the matter is that most of the measurements posted around the internet and on this forum are either taken under crappy conditions, not high enough resolution, not comprehensive enough, or displayed inappropriately. If someone wants to use those to analyze and design their system, well, whatever... I'm just asking here if there are any decent measurements available. I'm still waiting to see just what these systems do.
plots
let me clarify a bit what I accomplished with these early measurements...
I wasn't looking to confirm or dispute cd or sq in open baffle, dipole, or any other system TYPE...
I was looking for gross trends discernable with these particular speakers; was able to confirm changes with xover modifications which resulted in smoother response in-room. So, given there are no dramatic changes in the (for instance 1/9 octave smoothed data from ~ 600 hz up, I confirmed changes I made to have a positive impact. That these also improved the sound of my system told me I'm on the right track.
Now, I'll go back, perform gated measurements at higher resolution, perhaps on each driver independently, paying more attention to the detailed setup and consequent accuracy over smaller granularity of the response. OK? What I was doing was screening for trends to make improvements in the overall profile, which I accomplished, in an open baffle dipole (above 600 Hz) system.
Bwaslo,
Thanks for the insights, and yes, they do measure much smoother than is depicted in the on/off axis screening check
gated measurement ~ 600 hz up. I'm trying to remove the remaining ripple, but they're +/- 3.25 dB or so from 500 Hz to ~ 14 Khz, so i'm making progress.
Earl,
Thanks, I appreciate your input. I'm working on improving the setup, but I'll probably post future tests in another thread, so as not to confuse this one with an improper agenda.
John L.
let me clarify a bit what I accomplished with these early measurements...
I wasn't looking to confirm or dispute cd or sq in open baffle, dipole, or any other system TYPE...
I was looking for gross trends discernable with these particular speakers; was able to confirm changes with xover modifications which resulted in smoother response in-room. So, given there are no dramatic changes in the (for instance 1/9 octave smoothed data from ~ 600 hz up, I confirmed changes I made to have a positive impact. That these also improved the sound of my system told me I'm on the right track.
Now, I'll go back, perform gated measurements at higher resolution, perhaps on each driver independently, paying more attention to the detailed setup and consequent accuracy over smaller granularity of the response. OK? What I was doing was screening for trends to make improvements in the overall profile, which I accomplished, in an open baffle dipole (above 600 Hz) system.
Bwaslo,
Thanks for the insights, and yes, they do measure much smoother than is depicted in the on/off axis screening check
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
gated measurement ~ 600 hz up. I'm trying to remove the remaining ripple, but they're +/- 3.25 dB or so from 500 Hz to ~ 14 Khz, so i'm making progress.
Earl,
Thanks, I appreciate your input. I'm working on improving the setup, but I'll probably post future tests in another thread, so as not to confuse this one with an improper agenda.
John L.
I used to post on diyaudio on a daily basis. All kinds of massive projects, mostly waveguide related. Six months ago I broke down and bought a pair of Summas.
Ever since then I have almost no interest in DIY. Though I've been involved in the hobby for half of my life, I haven't made anything which is up to these standards. Now the hobby has taken a backseat to collecting music. In fact I am nearly as passionate for new music as I once was for building speakers. And if you think that DIY was a small time hobby, go look for some of my old posts. There were months when I would literally spend 50-100hrs on a SINGLE PROJECT. I was *obsessed.*
I *do* like dipoles quite a bit. I've built a few myself. The reason that I would *personally* go with Summas over dipoles comes down to cost, complexity and dynamics. I don't believe the Orions can reach the same dynamic levels as the Summas, due to their use of a dome tweeter. A speaker like the Audio Physics tackles that problem by combining a waveguide with a dipole, albeit with a great deal of complexity and additional cost.
Compared to the alternatives, the Summa approach is both elegant and cost effective.
At this point I've been listening to the Summas for about six months. I work from home, so I listen to them about 60-80hrs per week.
As I mentioned earlier, I've been buying a lot of music lately. I'll finish with an anecdote. I listen to rock music mostly, but recently I dug out a classical CD which I'd grown to enjoy years ago. Classical music isn't one of my faves, but the recordings have a dynamic range which are far beyond what you'll find in the typical compressed rock and roll CD.
So here I was, listening to this classical recording from years past. As soon as I hit "play" I realized the volume level was too low. Because I'd been listening to rock, I had to turn things up about 15DB to compensate. After turning it on, I continued about my regular business. As I noted, I listen to the Summas ALL DAY LONG, so I'm often listening while doing something else simultaneously.
As the orchestra played, I found myself transfixed by the majesty of this recording. It was unnerving. Keep in mind, I DON'T EVEN LIKE classical music.
After the first couple of minutes I was transfixed, but soon the recording was literally making me uncomfortable.
I don't mean that it was uncomfortably loud - I mean that the recording was SO POWERFUL and SO EPIC, it was uncomfortable to listen to.
I've been listening to music for almost forty years, but I've never had a recording affect me like that, where I literally felt compelled to walk outside and get some fresh air. And I did! I walked out of the room, and had to "take it all in."
After thinking about it for a few minutes, I decided that the incredible dynamic capability of the Summas was responsible for creating an experience like that - as there aren't any speakers I am aware of which can get THAT LOUD without sounding like fingernails on a chalkboard. A dipole might throw a compelling image, but it's never going to compete with that kind of dynamic power. There are prosound speakers which can get equally loud, in fact I have a pair set up in another room in my house! But they suffer from all kinds of distortions which are absent in the Summas.
Bottom line - they're worth every penny.
Ever since then I have almost no interest in DIY. Though I've been involved in the hobby for half of my life, I haven't made anything which is up to these standards. Now the hobby has taken a backseat to collecting music. In fact I am nearly as passionate for new music as I once was for building speakers. And if you think that DIY was a small time hobby, go look for some of my old posts. There were months when I would literally spend 50-100hrs on a SINGLE PROJECT. I was *obsessed.*
I *do* like dipoles quite a bit. I've built a few myself. The reason that I would *personally* go with Summas over dipoles comes down to cost, complexity and dynamics. I don't believe the Orions can reach the same dynamic levels as the Summas, due to their use of a dome tweeter. A speaker like the Audio Physics tackles that problem by combining a waveguide with a dipole, albeit with a great deal of complexity and additional cost.
Compared to the alternatives, the Summa approach is both elegant and cost effective.
At this point I've been listening to the Summas for about six months. I work from home, so I listen to them about 60-80hrs per week.
As I mentioned earlier, I've been buying a lot of music lately. I'll finish with an anecdote. I listen to rock music mostly, but recently I dug out a classical CD which I'd grown to enjoy years ago. Classical music isn't one of my faves, but the recordings have a dynamic range which are far beyond what you'll find in the typical compressed rock and roll CD.
So here I was, listening to this classical recording from years past. As soon as I hit "play" I realized the volume level was too low. Because I'd been listening to rock, I had to turn things up about 15DB to compensate. After turning it on, I continued about my regular business. As I noted, I listen to the Summas ALL DAY LONG, so I'm often listening while doing something else simultaneously.
As the orchestra played, I found myself transfixed by the majesty of this recording. It was unnerving. Keep in mind, I DON'T EVEN LIKE classical music.
After the first couple of minutes I was transfixed, but soon the recording was literally making me uncomfortable.
I don't mean that it was uncomfortably loud - I mean that the recording was SO POWERFUL and SO EPIC, it was uncomfortable to listen to.
I've been listening to music for almost forty years, but I've never had a recording affect me like that, where I literally felt compelled to walk outside and get some fresh air. And I did! I walked out of the room, and had to "take it all in."
After thinking about it for a few minutes, I decided that the incredible dynamic capability of the Summas was responsible for creating an experience like that - as there aren't any speakers I am aware of which can get THAT LOUD without sounding like fingernails on a chalkboard. A dipole might throw a compelling image, but it's never going to compete with that kind of dynamic power. There are prosound speakers which can get equally loud, in fact I have a pair set up in another room in my house! But they suffer from all kinds of distortions which are absent in the Summas.
Bottom line - they're worth every penny.
An excellent and meaningful post!
I would be interested in what you are using to power the Summas and what is doing bass duties.
I am on the point of pulling the trigger on a pair of K+H 3 way studio monitors, but although they go loud I know they would not go loud as effortlessly as the Summas. You make me wonder whether the Summas could work in this role.
A great monitor lets the mixing engineer arrive at a mix faster than an inferior set because small adjustments to EQ, compression and reverb, not to speak of panning, are all easily heard.
I just recently heard the K+Hs so they are a "bird in the hand" so maybe I will have to buy them and use them as a reference while I continue my search with the Abbey or such like.
Thanks,
Russell
I would be interested in what you are using to power the Summas and what is doing bass duties.
I am on the point of pulling the trigger on a pair of K+H 3 way studio monitors, but although they go loud I know they would not go loud as effortlessly as the Summas. You make me wonder whether the Summas could work in this role.
A great monitor lets the mixing engineer arrive at a mix faster than an inferior set because small adjustments to EQ, compression and reverb, not to speak of panning, are all easily heard.
I just recently heard the K+Hs so they are a "bird in the hand" so maybe I will have to buy them and use them as a reference while I continue my search with the Abbey or such like.
Thanks,
Russell
I just don't get this obsession with loudness. Surely there is more to the good domestic speaker than the ability to cleanly reach high SPLs ? To me, ATC100's go plently loud enough, even if purely dome based not just for highs, but from ~400Hz upwards.
I can understand people who want to use same speakers for HT (I don't care about HT one bit), but for music reproduction there would be at least half a dozen other attributes more important to me before I consider max SPL.
Yes, we know Orions can't be as loud as Summas. But they do all other (important!) things as good as or better than most of the audio elite.
So back on topic - do Orions sound great because of dipole operation ? I think they do (I've heard them, as well as the most of audio jewelery, NOT Summas unfortunately). But dipole operation is I think only part of the story.
I can understand people who want to use same speakers for HT (I don't care about HT one bit), but for music reproduction there would be at least half a dozen other attributes more important to me before I consider max SPL.
Yes, we know Orions can't be as loud as Summas. But they do all other (important!) things as good as or better than most of the audio elite.
So back on topic - do Orions sound great because of dipole operation ? I think they do (I've heard them, as well as the most of audio jewelery, NOT Summas unfortunately). But dipole operation is I think only part of the story.
Bratislav said:
Ironically, I would have agreed with you a year ago. My interest in waveguides was due to my interest in creating an excellent image.
Now that I have the Summas I find myself listening to them outside of the "sweet spot" seventy five percent of the time. (In fact I'm listening to them outside of the "sweet spot" right now!)
They really re-adjust the way you listen to music. I'm not kidding, I listen to them 8-12 hours EVERY DAY. I listen to them while I work, I listen to them while I clean the house, I listen to them while I make dinner.
I think the foam plug has a lot to do with that - the elimination of high-order modes allows you to listen and listen and LISTEN...
Once you reach that stage you start to worry about finding new music and coming up with interesting playlists, which is where I invest most of my time these days.
Bratislav said:
Maybe others who know better will chime in, but my impression wasn't that people were complementing the Summas for their maximum spl, by for their dynamics - the ability to go from quiet to loud without running out of power - aka, avoiding compression. My time with the Orions really impressed me with their relative lack of dynamic compression, and am interested if the Summas are said to do better. I associate a sense of ease with speakers that have a lot of dynamic capability.
What compression drivers are readily available in your country?
Pretty much all of the usual suspects. But I don't want a 'surogate'. Remember, I have pretty heavy artillery at my disposal (ATCs and VAFs), I'd hate to even chance it going backwards, sound quality wise. Ideally, I'd go and listen to someone else's Summas/Abbeys/Nathans and decide if it works out for me. But no luck, so far.
Pretty much all of the usual suspects. But I don't want a 'surogate'. Remember, I have pretty heavy artillery at my disposal (ATCs and VAFs), I'd hate to even chance it going backwards, sound quality wise. Ideally, I'd go and listen to someone else's Summas/Abbeys/Nathans and decide if it works out for me. But no luck, so far.
cuibono said:
Well, I've heard Orions, and 'lack of dynamic compression' wouldn't be the first thing that comes to mind. Very low distortion, yes, free of box artefacts, yes, stupendous imaging, yes, great sounding bass, yes. Freedom from compression ... errr sort of, but certainly not SOTA there.
But I'm coming from prespective of ATC's (which are almost PA in their freedom from compression), so I may be skewed in this particular department.
Well HOMs are rather nasty. I think it has more to do with the foam plug than the compression driver. A few years back I took a tractrix horn, added a foam plug, then redesigned the crossover so that it's response was flat.
The difference before and after was night and day. I would say that the foam plug let me listen to the tractrix horn at a level that was ten decibels louder without any audible fatigue.
At home I don't listen to the Summas at huge volumes for very long. But this isn't because they sound bad at high volumes - I'm literally worried about scaring the neighbors.
The funny part is that I live in a rural town, and my closest neighbord is about 150' away
The difference before and after was night and day. I would say that the foam plug let me listen to the tractrix horn at a level that was ten decibels louder without any audible fatigue.
At home I don't listen to the Summas at huge volumes for very long. But this isn't because they sound bad at high volumes - I'm literally worried about scaring the neighbors.
The funny part is that I live in a rural town, and my closest neighbord is about 150' away
Patrick Bateman said:
I agree on both accounts. But to do the design any justice, you need to cover the other (some would argue even more important!) half of the spectrum (<1kHz), and that can't be done on cheap. Those B&C TBX's are insanely expensive here. Rightfuly so, I might speculate, quality is rarely cheap. Problem is I can't just buy them risking to end up with another pair of loud and clean speakers when I was after something really completely different.
Well the magic in the design is the waveguide and the compression driver if you ask me. I've never heard the Abbey but I have a hunch that it's very competitive with the Summa, based on the engineering behind it.
Honestly I would have bought the Abbeys myself but they didn't exist when I bought the Summas.
Honestly I would have bought the Abbeys myself but they didn't exist when I bought the Summas.
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