I agree. My little system is sounding like a 3-way with the mid driver missing because of the little tweets.tinitus said:RDV, your tweeter should not be less than 1" in a two way - but you can try and place a resistor in series with the 10uf - and probably your inductor should be smaller - crossover point is too low for this small tweeter
The Audaxs should help. The little Pioneers would sound alright in a 3-way system though. They've got a nice sizzle to them.
Live & learn.
RDV
I assumed the marked side to be positive and installed the new tweets. They are certainly a huge improvment over the tiny Pioneers. I'm in the "honeymoon stage" right now but it's like night and day, the difference. The lower freq in handclaps and vocals can now be felt. I'm happy.
RDV
RDV
RDV said:I've received the Audax TM025F1 tweeters I ordered but I don't know which lug is which. One has a green shade of paint next to it. Is this negative?
Going from memory, the lug which is bigger and wider is the positive one in those tweeters and those are the ones that are painted green if I recall correctly.
the audible problems
Hi RDV , I searched around to try to find a frequency response plot for the Goldwood woofer you bought , as no plot on the Parts Express site . Have a look at :- http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/Debertin/gold.htm , and which also appears at :- http://members.aol.com/Debertin/gold.htm . There you will see he shows a plot for the 4ohm version of that Goldwood driver . The 8ohm version will be similar but not identical - cheap drivers often have different upper-mid responses between 4ohm and 8ohm versions , BUT , the 8ohm if different will likely have less of that sharp peak at about 4.4kHz - and if so , good ! ___ What you bought is really a bass driver only , and not good for midrange - look at that drop from about 1.5kHz - that is part of what you are hearing . ___ OK , so $10- is a bargain , but you got somthing you will have to try to be clever with to make work - a good challenge to start speaker designing with ! ___ It can be got to work - it will not be ideal , but it can be better than you have got so far with it . ____ Do you have any way of measuring its frequency response - at least from about 1kHz to 8kHz {or slightly less} ? , if not then we'll guess its similar to the 4ohm version . If you have an Audio Oscillater , then connect it through your amplifier and slowly sweep up from about 2k and through the 4 to 5k region to beyond and listening at at moderate volume level because these are screech on the ear frequencies . Listen directly on-axis to the woofer . The human ear does NOT hear in flat response like a measuring microphone , but you should be able to hear a peak that is of much higher amplitude than the area on either side . Listen outdoors or in a dead sounding room , because resonances in a live room will confuse the issue . Find the high point of the upper mid peak by ear - this is where to cross-over that woofer - exactly on its peak . Use a 2nd order electrical - or a first order electrical {inductor only} plus a Zobel in parallel with the woofer . If you cannot find data to help and do not have an AC Voltage measuring meter that works accurately to at least 5kHz , the for a start point Zobel use an 8.2ohm , 10watt , resistor in series with a 10uF film capacitor . It may need larger capacitor - you can try adding caps in parallel with the 10uF to try 12.2uF and 14.7uF , etc .... Resistor should not be lower than the DC resistance of the Goldwood - so measure that . A 6.8ohm resistor may work better than 8.2ohm . Next connect the inductor - probably a .33mH or a .27mH - depending on the mid-range impedance you have achieved with your Zobel , and the exact location of that Peak . If the DC resistance of your Goldwood is greater than 6.8ohm , use 8.2ohm in the Zobel and .33mH ; if DC is less than 6.8 , use 6.8ohm and .27mH . This is electrical 1st order , but with the roll-off of the driver above the mid peak you will be getting approximately a 3rd order . To combine with tweeter you will have to experiment and listen - try Linkwitz-Riley 2nd order {-6dB at the crossover frequency} and basic 3rd order from charts {assume the impedance at crossover freq. of your tweeter is about 10% larger than its DC resistance}. Try both polarities connction with the tweeter . If you do not get OK sound then leave the Zobel on the woofer and try Linkwitz-Riley 2nd order electrical there also , and you can increase on tweeter from 3rd order to 4th order Link-Riley . ____ Post you results here if you would like further comments .____ Better would have been to buy a woofer after seeing its Response Plot . Draw the graphs of the frequency response for the two Dayton 8 ohm woofers using the data given as numerals under the picture of each on Parts Express site . ____ What is the internal volume of your cabinet ? , at least 11 litre {0.4 cubic feet} I hope , ? ____ That Audax tweeter is good and worth keeping if you go to another woofer - and you can go back to your Pioneer tweeter if you are crossing over above 4kHz with the Goldwood woofer . Best hopes , Alan .
Hi RDV , I searched around to try to find a frequency response plot for the Goldwood woofer you bought , as no plot on the Parts Express site . Have a look at :- http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/Debertin/gold.htm , and which also appears at :- http://members.aol.com/Debertin/gold.htm . There you will see he shows a plot for the 4ohm version of that Goldwood driver . The 8ohm version will be similar but not identical - cheap drivers often have different upper-mid responses between 4ohm and 8ohm versions , BUT , the 8ohm if different will likely have less of that sharp peak at about 4.4kHz - and if so , good ! ___ What you bought is really a bass driver only , and not good for midrange - look at that drop from about 1.5kHz - that is part of what you are hearing . ___ OK , so $10- is a bargain , but you got somthing you will have to try to be clever with to make work - a good challenge to start speaker designing with ! ___ It can be got to work - it will not be ideal , but it can be better than you have got so far with it . ____ Do you have any way of measuring its frequency response - at least from about 1kHz to 8kHz {or slightly less} ? , if not then we'll guess its similar to the 4ohm version . If you have an Audio Oscillater , then connect it through your amplifier and slowly sweep up from about 2k and through the 4 to 5k region to beyond and listening at at moderate volume level because these are screech on the ear frequencies . Listen directly on-axis to the woofer . The human ear does NOT hear in flat response like a measuring microphone , but you should be able to hear a peak that is of much higher amplitude than the area on either side . Listen outdoors or in a dead sounding room , because resonances in a live room will confuse the issue . Find the high point of the upper mid peak by ear - this is where to cross-over that woofer - exactly on its peak . Use a 2nd order electrical - or a first order electrical {inductor only} plus a Zobel in parallel with the woofer . If you cannot find data to help and do not have an AC Voltage measuring meter that works accurately to at least 5kHz , the for a start point Zobel use an 8.2ohm , 10watt , resistor in series with a 10uF film capacitor . It may need larger capacitor - you can try adding caps in parallel with the 10uF to try 12.2uF and 14.7uF , etc .... Resistor should not be lower than the DC resistance of the Goldwood - so measure that . A 6.8ohm resistor may work better than 8.2ohm . Next connect the inductor - probably a .33mH or a .27mH - depending on the mid-range impedance you have achieved with your Zobel , and the exact location of that Peak . If the DC resistance of your Goldwood is greater than 6.8ohm , use 8.2ohm in the Zobel and .33mH ; if DC is less than 6.8 , use 6.8ohm and .27mH . This is electrical 1st order , but with the roll-off of the driver above the mid peak you will be getting approximately a 3rd order . To combine with tweeter you will have to experiment and listen - try Linkwitz-Riley 2nd order {-6dB at the crossover frequency} and basic 3rd order from charts {assume the impedance at crossover freq. of your tweeter is about 10% larger than its DC resistance}. Try both polarities connction with the tweeter . If you do not get OK sound then leave the Zobel on the woofer and try Linkwitz-Riley 2nd order electrical there also , and you can increase on tweeter from 3rd order to 4th order Link-Riley . ____ Post you results here if you would like further comments .____ Better would have been to buy a woofer after seeing its Response Plot . Draw the graphs of the frequency response for the two Dayton 8 ohm woofers using the data given as numerals under the picture of each on Parts Express site . ____ What is the internal volume of your cabinet ? , at least 11 litre {0.4 cubic feet} I hope , ? ____ That Audax tweeter is good and worth keeping if you go to another woofer - and you can go back to your Pioneer tweeter if you are crossing over above 4kHz with the Goldwood woofer . Best hopes , Alan .
The Audax tweeters were a "night & day" change. The speakers are very listenable now. Of course the woofers are still quite crappy but for now are going to have to suffice.
I suppose I could use some suggestions on a better woofer to match the Audax tweeters, perhaps the 6.5" Audax Aerogels? If I do that, I'll definitely buy crossover parts as well.
For now the speakers are sounding quite good though I'm having to lower the mids & highs on my mixer a great deal as there are no pad resistors and the tweeters are much better than the woofers now. It's not a big problem dialing in a good sound with my Mackie 1202VLZ.
The cabinets are around the same size as BR-1s, but the port is in front rather than the rear.
RDV
I suppose I could use some suggestions on a better woofer to match the Audax tweeters, perhaps the 6.5" Audax Aerogels? If I do that, I'll definitely buy crossover parts as well.
For now the speakers are sounding quite good though I'm having to lower the mids & highs on my mixer a great deal as there are no pad resistors and the tweeters are much better than the woofers now. It's not a big problem dialing in a good sound with my Mackie 1202VLZ.
The cabinets are around the same size as BR-1s, but the port is in front rather than the rear.
RDV
An "L" network - parallel plus series - 2 resistors around the Audax tweeter will achieve two things :- {1}- pad to match the woofer ;{2}- part damp down the Impedance peak at the tweeters Fs - which is interacting with the series capacitor-only crossover and giving audible output too high there {about 1.2kHz it looks to be on the published Audax plot} . Measure yiour Tweeters DC resistance and post here AND post how many dB - approximately - you want to reduce the tweeter by . I'll calculate a start point L-pad for you , and describe how to do it if you like , though you will need to understand Mathematics . ____ You may have to change the capacitor to the tweeter to allow for the impedance at the cross-over frequency , so post what crossover frequency you want to use , plus the capacitor you are currently using . Part of the excess mids is the peak in the woofer's response , and part is the capacitor effect at the tweeters Fs . Do you still have the .53mH and 10uF 2nd order on the woofer ?
Cabinet volume .
Oh , the BR-1 - is this the .55cuFt that Debertin mentions on his page ? , if so , that is reasonable as a start point for that Goldwood woofer if your cabinets are tightly sealed - no vents or ports {?}. If a region of the low bass is too prominent , that can be improved by making the cabinet behave as if it was larger . This is done by stuffing it - full is better than the 2/3 that Debertin mentions , but it must not be packed tight as then it becomes smaller to the woofer . Loose but physically stable packing is required . Wool batts cut to size or loose wool fill is best . Fibreglass or Rockwool is 2nd best , and can be good enough . Polyfill can be got to work to lesser effect . Post if you want to try this and I'll describe how to lay the filling - this is important as it will not work properly and can give worse sound if done flat side facing the backs of the woofer .
Oh , the BR-1 - is this the .55cuFt that Debertin mentions on his page ? , if so , that is reasonable as a start point for that Goldwood woofer if your cabinets are tightly sealed - no vents or ports {?}. If a region of the low bass is too prominent , that can be improved by making the cabinet behave as if it was larger . This is done by stuffing it - full is better than the 2/3 that Debertin mentions , but it must not be packed tight as then it becomes smaller to the woofer . Loose but physically stable packing is required . Wool batts cut to size or loose wool fill is best . Fibreglass or Rockwool is 2nd best , and can be good enough . Polyfill can be got to work to lesser effect . Post if you want to try this and I'll describe how to lay the filling - this is important as it will not work properly and can give worse sound if done flat side facing the backs of the woofer .
Yes. It's a mystery to me where that would have the woofer crossed at.alan-1-b said:Do you still have the .53mH and 10uF 2nd order on the woofer ?
It's a 5.6µF Bi-Polar Electro on the tweeters. I'd like to cross them at somewhere between 2500 & 3000HZ considering that the woofer doesn't do mids too well.
A 5.6µF should be crossing it at around 3500 +/-10% so I was thinking of placing a 1µF film across it to bring it down to around 3000HZ. I was even thinking adding a small value bypass cap to hopefully improve the performance of the high-pass.
I'll put together a Zobel for the woofers tonight also as I have the right resistors for it on hand. Hopefully I can wring what performance is available from what I've got that way.
I'll also measure the DC resistance of the tweets and post them when I get home. Unfortunately that may be a bit late in England as you're 5 hours ahead of me.
RDV
the original crossover
If your 0053 inductor is a .53mH , then with the 10uF cap. it resonates at 2.184kHz and into an Impedance of 7.28ohm . This will not be the cross-over point you are getting because that Goldwood driver does not have an Impedance of 7.28ohm at 2k184 , but probably has an impedance of somewhere between 12 and 14 ohms at that frequency - and part of it is Reactive there - Inductive , owing to the voice coil winding , thus your crossover is now misterminated . I do not know the freq. it will be effectively operating at - it would have to be measured . Also the Q of that filter is 1 , which is neither of the commonly used Qs for L.C networks {usually Q is made to be .5 for Linkwitz-Riley filter , or , .7071 for Butterworth filter} , so perhaps that Q was chosen to specifically match the frequency characteristics of the original driver in that cabinet , or perhaps it was simply clumsy misunderstanding design . I'll post more later - have to go now .
If your 0053 inductor is a .53mH , then with the 10uF cap. it resonates at 2.184kHz and into an Impedance of 7.28ohm . This will not be the cross-over point you are getting because that Goldwood driver does not have an Impedance of 7.28ohm at 2k184 , but probably has an impedance of somewhere between 12 and 14 ohms at that frequency - and part of it is Reactive there - Inductive , owing to the voice coil winding , thus your crossover is now misterminated . I do not know the freq. it will be effectively operating at - it would have to be measured . Also the Q of that filter is 1 , which is neither of the commonly used Qs for L.C networks {usually Q is made to be .5 for Linkwitz-Riley filter , or , .7071 for Butterworth filter} , so perhaps that Q was chosen to specifically match the frequency characteristics of the original driver in that cabinet , or perhaps it was simply clumsy misunderstanding design . I'll post more later - have to go now .
alternate bass drivers .
Audax Aerogel drivers had a good reputation for clear midrange , but now the Company has stopped manufacturing them {typical !} . That particular 6 1/2 " available is a left-over . Looking at its data sheet it seems to have been designed for use as an upper-bass to lower-midrange driver for a 4-way system . It could be got to work as a bass-mid in a 2-way , but there would be a lack of low bass , and a problem in the upper mids - look at its data sheet - see the similar high-midrange spike there to what is in your Goldwood . This will require a more sophisticated cross-over than I can describe here . _____ For a bass-mid to use with your Audax tweeter , and with a simple cross-over I can suggest to you to start with that will give listenable results , better than with your Goldwood , I recommend the SEAS CA18RLY , available mail-order from Madisound . It will work in your cabinet if its internal volume is between 12 and 18 litres and sealed - no vents or ports for this SEAS driver , {and even more-so not for your Goldwood } if you want quality bass .
Audax Aerogel drivers had a good reputation for clear midrange , but now the Company has stopped manufacturing them {typical !} . That particular 6 1/2 " available is a left-over . Looking at its data sheet it seems to have been designed for use as an upper-bass to lower-midrange driver for a 4-way system . It could be got to work as a bass-mid in a 2-way , but there would be a lack of low bass , and a problem in the upper mids - look at its data sheet - see the similar high-midrange spike there to what is in your Goldwood . This will require a more sophisticated cross-over than I can describe here . _____ For a bass-mid to use with your Audax tweeter , and with a simple cross-over I can suggest to you to start with that will give listenable results , better than with your Goldwood , I recommend the SEAS CA18RLY , available mail-order from Madisound . It will work in your cabinet if its internal volume is between 12 and 18 litres and sealed - no vents or ports for this SEAS driver , {and even more-so not for your Goldwood } if you want quality bass .
to better use the Goldwood driver .
If you want to continue with the Goldwood driver , then simplest is to copy Debertin's cross-over , and use your Pioneer tweeter - post its DC resistance and I'll post suitable resistor values to use with it instead of the L-pad and 4ohm resistor that Debertin uses . I could suggest a similar cross-over alternate , but it may not work any better than his . ____ Keep your Audax for use with a better bass driver , such as the SEAS CA18RLY . ____ Another idea for the Goldwood is to use it with a 3" or 4" cone driver that can be crossed over where the Goldwood starts to drop - at approximately 1.3kHz . Of the numerous available , there is only sufficient data for a few {that I have seen so far} . One was sold by MCM Electronics - part number 54-606 - but it is not listed in their current on-line catalog , so you would have to find a pair - try e-bay , and ask in the "full-range forum" if anyone wants to sell a pair of MCM 54-606 , but don't pay a lot for them . ___ The Fostex FE107 , available mail-order from Madisound , will work in this application . With the MCM and the Fostex you will not need a tweeter , and I can suggest a simple cross-over for them to the Goldwood . But , both are open-back drivers , so you would need a separate sealed enclosure for either . You could build one to sit neatly on top of your cabinets . The MCM driver will need a 2 litre internal volume cabinet , and the Fostex will need a 6 litre internal volume , if either is to be used with a simple cross-over . ____ You could use the Goldwood + Pioneer + a midrange driver , but fot a simple cross-over the mid driver will need to have a low Qt of less than 0.5 and a low Fs - preferably below 100Hz , and a frequency response plot without any major peaks or dips up to at least 8kHz . Look at data sheets of 4" mini bass-mid drivers to find a suitable one . Again , you would need a separate sealed enclosure . None of the manufactured sealed midrange drivers that I know of can be used with a simple cross-over with your Goldwood driver .
If you want to continue with the Goldwood driver , then simplest is to copy Debertin's cross-over , and use your Pioneer tweeter - post its DC resistance and I'll post suitable resistor values to use with it instead of the L-pad and 4ohm resistor that Debertin uses . I could suggest a similar cross-over alternate , but it may not work any better than his . ____ Keep your Audax for use with a better bass driver , such as the SEAS CA18RLY . ____ Another idea for the Goldwood is to use it with a 3" or 4" cone driver that can be crossed over where the Goldwood starts to drop - at approximately 1.3kHz . Of the numerous available , there is only sufficient data for a few {that I have seen so far} . One was sold by MCM Electronics - part number 54-606 - but it is not listed in their current on-line catalog , so you would have to find a pair - try e-bay , and ask in the "full-range forum" if anyone wants to sell a pair of MCM 54-606 , but don't pay a lot for them . ___ The Fostex FE107 , available mail-order from Madisound , will work in this application . With the MCM and the Fostex you will not need a tweeter , and I can suggest a simple cross-over for them to the Goldwood . But , both are open-back drivers , so you would need a separate sealed enclosure for either . You could build one to sit neatly on top of your cabinets . The MCM driver will need a 2 litre internal volume cabinet , and the Fostex will need a 6 litre internal volume , if either is to be used with a simple cross-over . ____ You could use the Goldwood + Pioneer + a midrange driver , but fot a simple cross-over the mid driver will need to have a low Qt of less than 0.5 and a low Fs - preferably below 100Hz , and a frequency response plot without any major peaks or dips up to at least 8kHz . Look at data sheets of 4" mini bass-mid drivers to find a suitable one . Again , you would need a separate sealed enclosure . None of the manufactured sealed midrange drivers that I know of can be used with a simple cross-over with your Goldwood driver .
Other suggestions .
I strongly recommend that you buy a copy of the "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickerson . The new 7th edition is available from Madisound and Parts Express . You will find much in it to help you understand all the matters I have posted about , and more , so that you can design and modify your own loudspeakers , including on 3-way cross-overs . ____ Also , have someone measure your 0053 inductor to find out exactly what it is - this can be measured directly , or mesured with reference to a known value series conncted resistor at a known audio frequency , and the the inductance calculated - it is not difficult to do for a knowledgeable person .
I strongly recommend that you buy a copy of the "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickerson . The new 7th edition is available from Madisound and Parts Express . You will find much in it to help you understand all the matters I have posted about , and more , so that you can design and modify your own loudspeakers , including on 3-way cross-overs . ____ Also , have someone measure your 0053 inductor to find out exactly what it is - this can be measured directly , or mesured with reference to a known value series conncted resistor at a known audio frequency , and the the inductance calculated - it is not difficult to do for a knowledgeable person .
Something I perhaps forgot to mention is that I'm also using a DIY 12" subwoofer with A DIY electronic crossover crossed at 150HZ. I've got bass. I was just looking for more clarity from the near fields. The Audax tweeters were a great help as was adding a 1µF cap across the existing 5.6µF in each 1st order high-pass crossover bringing the tweeters down to around 3khz.
If I get a better mid-bass driver, I'll buy a decent commercial crossover.
Thanks for your help Alan.
RDV
If I get a better mid-bass driver, I'll buy a decent commercial crossover.
Thanks for your help Alan.
RDV
Alan:
I forgot to ask what your opinion is on Dayton's Standard 6.5" Woofer?
It looks as though I could use it in a vented enclosure(which I have).
Thanks in advance.
RDV
I forgot to ask what your opinion is on Dayton's Standard 6.5" Woofer?
It looks as though I could use it in a vented enclosure(which I have).
Thanks in advance.
RDV
Reading this article has convinced me I just made a mistake with both original drivers. They might sound alright together in a large sealed box with the right crossover, but for the box I put them in they were woefully inadequate.
I may build a pair of cabs similar to the ones in the above article and use those drivers in it, but I believe I'll be ordering a Dayton 6.5" standard woofer and the components to build a 12db linkwietz-riley 2nd order crossover for the cabinets that I have. I think the Audax tweeter will work fine in that configuration. I just need to know how much pad to use on the tweeter. I'll have a look at the BR-1 crossover for some ideas on that.
RDV
I may build a pair of cabs similar to the ones in the above article and use those drivers in it, but I believe I'll be ordering a Dayton 6.5" standard woofer and the components to build a 12db linkwietz-riley 2nd order crossover for the cabinets that I have. I think the Audax tweeter will work fine in that configuration. I just need to know how much pad to use on the tweeter. I'll have a look at the BR-1 crossover for some ideas on that.
RDV
Not the Dayton !
Well , you've realized that you made one mistake , now please consider that you are about to make another mistake . ____ Look at the frequency plot for that Dayton - first at the right-hand end - see that peak at about 3.25kHz - that will be an extended resonance - similar to the one in your Goldwood . You will hear it , and it will not be easy to lower it sufficiently with a cross-over . ___ Next see the sharp dip just below it - at about 2.8kHz - that will highlight the 3k25 resonant peak . ___ Next see the broader peak at about 2.5kHz - that is the highest frequency this driver can be usefully used to - thus you will need a steep crossover on the 3k25 peak , AND , you will need a steep crossover slope on your Audax tweeter to crossover it at 2k5 , because that is only 1 octave above its resonant frequency . This crossover cannot be bought from any catalog - it would have to be specifically made for this application . ___ The SEAS driver I recommended is much easier to cross to your Audax , and is a much better quality driver than the Dayton , and with the SEAS and the Audax tweeter you will have a system that will be equivalent in quality to a loudspeaker pair that would sell for around $500 ! , and you can fine tune it for better performance as you learn more about speakers . ___ I spelt that book Author's name incorrectly - it is Vance Dickason , I think ? , I'll have to check spelling . I'll post more next time .
Well , you've realized that you made one mistake , now please consider that you are about to make another mistake . ____ Look at the frequency plot for that Dayton - first at the right-hand end - see that peak at about 3.25kHz - that will be an extended resonance - similar to the one in your Goldwood . You will hear it , and it will not be easy to lower it sufficiently with a cross-over . ___ Next see the sharp dip just below it - at about 2.8kHz - that will highlight the 3k25 resonant peak . ___ Next see the broader peak at about 2.5kHz - that is the highest frequency this driver can be usefully used to - thus you will need a steep crossover on the 3k25 peak , AND , you will need a steep crossover slope on your Audax tweeter to crossover it at 2k5 , because that is only 1 octave above its resonant frequency . This crossover cannot be bought from any catalog - it would have to be specifically made for this application . ___ The SEAS driver I recommended is much easier to cross to your Audax , and is a much better quality driver than the Dayton , and with the SEAS and the Audax tweeter you will have a system that will be equivalent in quality to a loudspeaker pair that would sell for around $500 ! , and you can fine tune it for better performance as you learn more about speakers . ___ I spelt that book Author's name incorrectly - it is Vance Dickason , I think ? , I'll have to check spelling . I'll post more next time .
I've read really good things about this driver. They say it compares favorably to the Seas Aluminum speaker. The price certainly can't be beat. I know the response looks crazy from about 3500HZ on but I'll cross it around 3khz if I get it.
I'm really looking for a driver that will work in a vented box.
I'm not rushing into anything yet. I realize the Seas driver is a proven performer. I may go that route.
RDV
I'm really looking for a driver that will work in a vented box.
I'm not rushing into anything yet. I realize the Seas driver is a proven performer. I may go that route.
RDV
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