zenmasterbrian said:dean and rfbrw, why don't you both tell us more about these things. Do you have some links?
Why would I do that? I'm not the one driving this project, though 'driving' is far too strenuous a word to describe your contribution so far.
While you are pondering how you might take the information you have been given so far and make good use of it, you might want to consider how you plan to cater for those who insist on having multiple non-computer based sources like DAT machines, Minidisc machines, turntables, tuners, reel-to-reel machines etc.
Analog sources could go through an analog control preamp and then into the power amps. The digital stuff would be bypassed. This would be my preference. I like analog.
But if you want digitally derived surround sound, then at least some of the channels have to be run off of digitized information.
This would go into the computer.
Otherwise, it all could be digitized.
If it is comming form vinyl, my preference would be to digitize it once and for all.
Understand that DVD audio is 24 bits. This means 132 db of dynamic range. We have never had anything like that available to us before. The analog electronics still can't match that. Human hearing can't either.
I believe there is software for PC based recording studios and for synth patch generation that takes audio processing plug ins.
Identifying this standard, and the software that uses it, especially if some is open source, would be a good place to start.
Does anyone know of these, or any other standards for software interoperability?
But if you want digitally derived surround sound, then at least some of the channels have to be run off of digitized information.
This would go into the computer.
Otherwise, it all could be digitized.
If it is comming form vinyl, my preference would be to digitize it once and for all.
Understand that DVD audio is 24 bits. This means 132 db of dynamic range. We have never had anything like that available to us before. The analog electronics still can't match that. Human hearing can't either.
I believe there is software for PC based recording studios and for synth patch generation that takes audio processing plug ins.
Identifying this standard, and the software that uses it, especially if some is open source, would be a good place to start.
Does anyone know of these, or any other standards for software interoperability?
zenmasterbrian said:
But I am Ivor Lott. How am I going to route my Nagra D, PCM7040,PCM9000, MDS-E12,2 Grimm Audio A/D and a SDDS codec?
A whole 24 bits eh! Fancy that. Things one learns on the internet.
I believe there is software for PC based recording studios and for synth patch generation that takes audio processing plug ins.
Identifying this standard, and the software that uses it, especially if some is open source, would be a good place to start.
Does anyone know of these, or any other standards for software interoperability?
Your inability to find out such simple things without having your hand held is not very encouraging. Perhaps Akio Morita was wrong.
But I digress.
Try using the search term 'TDM plug-in'. With any luck it should knock this idea on the head.
TDM - plug in? Maybe that is a place to start. But I'd like to know what others are using in terms of PC audio.
True, I don't really want this to be on a PC. I'd rather it be on something diskless, fanless and microsoftless.
Probably the place to start is with software plug ins used for home recording studio software, and music synthesis software.
TDM? Some years back I saw some about software plug ins in a magazine.
True, I don't really want this to be on a PC. I'd rather it be on something diskless, fanless and microsoftless.
Probably the place to start is with software plug ins used for home recording studio software, and music synthesis software.
TDM? Some years back I saw some about software plug ins in a magazine.
SlimServer has a plugin architecture (and a "non-open" client/DAC), whch for example lets you do room correction DSP on the PC (http://inguzaudio.com/RoomCorrection/) before the bits are streamed to the squeezebox.
Personally I think you should tread very carefully when thinking of a combination of GPL and plugin- or dynamic-loading software architectures; see for example the Foobar Secret Rabbit brouhaha.
Personally I think you should tread very carefully when thinking of a combination of GPL and plugin- or dynamic-loading software architectures; see for example the Foobar Secret Rabbit brouhaha.
Never had it before?
" ... Understand that DVD audio is 24 bits. This means 132 db of dynamic range. We have never had anything like that available to us before. The analog electronics still can't match that. Human hearing can't either. ..."
Actually 24 bit x 96K has been aroubd for at least seven years ... a standard in 1394a multichannel digital to analog audio = what professional music producers have been doing since ~ 1998 .... and available for most Apple and some WinPCs for that long.
" ... Understand that DVD audio is 24 bits. This means 132 db of dynamic range. We have never had anything like that available to us before. The analog electronics still can't match that. Human hearing can't either. ..."
Actually 24 bit x 96K has been aroubd for at least seven years ... a standard in 1394a multichannel digital to analog audio = what professional music producers have been doing since ~ 1998 .... and available for most Apple and some WinPCs for that long.
I currently use a PC for active crossover functions. If Behringer or others had a ready-made crossover box that had 2 digital inputs and 8 digital outputs for under $500 I wouldnt have any need for the PC.
The ONLY reason I use a PC is because I get DEQX(crossover and speaker measurement) like functionality for a lot less than $3000. And because some professional sound cards have very good DAC's and sound compared to standalone DAC's.
The PC world already has plugin standards for any possible use. DirectX plugins for the Microsoft camp and VST plugins for the digital audio workstation folks. Media players like winamp and foobar have their own plugin API's. People are already using PC's for mixing and producing the music you listen to.
The software to decode DVD's and DVDAudio's already exists. The software to do EQ, DRC, and crossover functions already exists. There is no software to write that you can't buy for under $80 or get free for Linux already.
I for one am thankful that we dont have any more digital audio standards. I want competing DRM standard's to continue to fail. And I like my analog loophole. SACD and DVD-Audio were standards that didnt need to exist. DVD-Video's could always support high bitrate PCM.
All "Open" means is free source code. As a software developer, I put in enough hours slaving over code during a day. I dont need or care to see someone else free code at night. I just want it to work.
The ONLY reason I use a PC is because I get DEQX(crossover and speaker measurement) like functionality for a lot less than $3000. And because some professional sound cards have very good DAC's and sound compared to standalone DAC's.
The PC world already has plugin standards for any possible use. DirectX plugins for the Microsoft camp and VST plugins for the digital audio workstation folks. Media players like winamp and foobar have their own plugin API's. People are already using PC's for mixing and producing the music you listen to.
The software to decode DVD's and DVDAudio's already exists. The software to do EQ, DRC, and crossover functions already exists. There is no software to write that you can't buy for under $80 or get free for Linux already.
I for one am thankful that we dont have any more digital audio standards. I want competing DRM standard's to continue to fail. And I like my analog loophole. SACD and DVD-Audio were standards that didnt need to exist. DVD-Video's could always support high bitrate PCM.
All "Open" means is free source code. As a software developer, I put in enough hours slaving over code during a day. I dont need or care to see someone else free code at night. I just want it to work.
I will look at your links, and try to look up the things you have mentioned.
The place to start is where software is modularized. That way parts of it can be replaced with Open Source components, and eventually it all can be open source, and it all can be ported.
sourceforge.net lists 100,000 open source projects.
Much of what is required here is just identifying what defacto standards already exist, and then developing a voice in this area.
Lots and lots of effort goes into digital audio software, but too much of it is really wasted, producing nothing of lasting value.
This could be changed.
The place to start is where software is modularized. That way parts of it can be replaced with Open Source components, and eventually it all can be open source, and it all can be ported.
sourceforge.net lists 100,000 open source projects.
Much of what is required here is just identifying what defacto standards already exist, and then developing a voice in this area.
Lots and lots of effort goes into digital audio software, but too much of it is really wasted, producing nothing of lasting value.
This could be changed.
zenmasterbrian said:
You still have nothing concrete. If not a Mac/PC, what hardware do you plan to run all these plug-ins on ? VST/VSTi,TDM, Core Audio and LADSPA are all OS based be it Linux, OS X or Windows. Even the standalone audio editor, AMS Neve's Audiofile is based on NT technology. Between cheap and effective boxes from the likes of Behringer and a Mac/PC world overrun with plug-ins, there is little you can offer that doesn't already exist. You are looking to fill a gap that is not there to be filled and it will take much more than proselytising and wishful thinking to make any progress.
The name Behringer has been mentioned. I assume that means this:
http://www.behringer.com
I see they make digital recording gear. I'm having trouble seeing what PC software they offer, or finding any more about it.
Daveis, your use of a PC for active crossover functions and speaker management sounds extremely interesting!
What software do you use, and what DAC hardware do you use?
If you have links to some of the software plug ins you mentioned that would help.
Here, I found this on the wikipedia. I think it gives some idea about where this all sits right now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_workstation
http://www.behringer.com
I see they make digital recording gear. I'm having trouble seeing what PC software they offer, or finding any more about it.
Daveis, your use of a PC for active crossover functions and speaker management sounds extremely interesting!
What software do you use, and what DAC hardware do you use?
If you have links to some of the software plug ins you mentioned that would help.
Here, I found this on the wikipedia. I think it gives some idea about where this all sits right now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_workstation
The Behringer gear is often modified for better sound. Many claim that their modified gear sounds as good as the best high-end DAC's.
One such device is this
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
It sells for between $200 and $300. The existence of this cheap gear is a counterpoint to using a PC for any sound processing. This device is dead quiet, cheap, and when modified can sound quite good. It's AKM voltage output DAC's have many mods available.
My current system
-----------------------
$1000 PC
$500 RME HDSP9652 sound card
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/hdsp9652.htm
$300 Alesis ADAT AI3(ADAT breakout to amps)
Either of these software for crossover function
$80 http://www.thuneau.com/ freuqncy allocator lite
$99 http://www.voxengo.com/product/glisseq/
DVD/DVAAudio player
$80 http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/WinDVD_Profile.jsp
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
almost $2000 total price
under $200 for the software
Old System was
--------------------
$300 Behringer
$300 DVD Player
----------------------
$600 total cost
The PC system is more expensive, noisier, more complicated to operate, and less elegant. It provides slightly better sound quality. The cost of the software is negligible compared to the hardware cost.
The Behringer modified would equal the PC system in sound quality and be much less expensive. It doesnt have measurement capabilities but that isnt relevant unless you are designing speakers.
The PC is appealing to those whose strength is in programming/software. Hardware is ultimately cheaper.
One such device is this
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG
It sells for between $200 and $300. The existence of this cheap gear is a counterpoint to using a PC for any sound processing. This device is dead quiet, cheap, and when modified can sound quite good. It's AKM voltage output DAC's have many mods available.
My current system
-----------------------
$1000 PC
$500 RME HDSP9652 sound card
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/hdsp9652.htm
$300 Alesis ADAT AI3(ADAT breakout to amps)
Either of these software for crossover function
$80 http://www.thuneau.com/ freuqncy allocator lite
$99 http://www.voxengo.com/product/glisseq/
DVD/DVAAudio player
$80 http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/WinDVD_Profile.jsp
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
almost $2000 total price
under $200 for the software
Old System was
--------------------
$300 Behringer
$300 DVD Player
----------------------
$600 total cost
The PC system is more expensive, noisier, more complicated to operate, and less elegant. It provides slightly better sound quality. The cost of the software is negligible compared to the hardware cost.
The Behringer modified would equal the PC system in sound quality and be much less expensive. It doesnt have measurement capabilities but that isnt relevant unless you are designing speakers.
The PC is appealing to those whose strength is in programming/software. Hardware is ultimately cheaper.
VST is a plugin specification for the Windows/Mac world. It was created by Steinberg. I believe it is much better suited to Windows audio processing than say DirectSound/DirectX which is more geared towards gaming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology
VST effects can be chained together within a "VST plugin host" in much the same way as standard input and output can be routed from program to program in Unix/Linux.
Linux folks have JACK/ALSA as sound API's. And Brutefir for FIR based crossover. They also have DRC.
PC + VST plugin host + VST plugins + professional ASIO soundcard = what you are looking for in the PC world.
The Linux community is well represented here.
http://www.duffroomcorrection.com/wiki/Main_Page
They have numerous links to Linux solutions.
Linux Boot CD(or Linux on USB flash) + custom programming/Unix shell scripts = another route for what you are looking for.
The big enemy in all PC based solutions as I see it is latency. Most people will want to watch DVD movies at some point. Without very low latency processing, your audio and video lip-synch would be lost. This is very annoying. A few software DVD players can delay the video to match the audio. I've never experimented with that.
Before you invest alot in a PC solution you should consider how you are going to deal with latency.
I chose Thuneau's freuqency allocator lite product. It supports low latencies downto 3-6 msec. That's ok for watching movies when I need to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology
VST effects can be chained together within a "VST plugin host" in much the same way as standard input and output can be routed from program to program in Unix/Linux.
Linux folks have JACK/ALSA as sound API's. And Brutefir for FIR based crossover. They also have DRC.
PC + VST plugin host + VST plugins + professional ASIO soundcard = what you are looking for in the PC world.
The Linux community is well represented here.
http://www.duffroomcorrection.com/wiki/Main_Page
They have numerous links to Linux solutions.
Linux Boot CD(or Linux on USB flash) + custom programming/Unix shell scripts = another route for what you are looking for.
The big enemy in all PC based solutions as I see it is latency. Most people will want to watch DVD movies at some point. Without very low latency processing, your audio and video lip-synch would be lost. This is very annoying. A few software DVD players can delay the video to match the audio. I've never experimented with that.
Before you invest alot in a PC solution you should consider how you are going to deal with latency.
I chose Thuneau's freuqency allocator lite product. It supports low latencies downto 3-6 msec. That's ok for watching movies when I need to.
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