Plastic does pose many advantages, but I worry about longevity. I know that plastics can last a considerable length of time without getting brittle, but they must be designed with that in mind. The motor on the last Sony TC500 R2R I received broke loose in shipping as a result of the plastic housing elements becoming quite brittle with age. The Coral drivers steel baskets, fabric surrounds and decent adhesives seem to have stood the test of time: 40+ years and sounding excellent. I also worry about folks over-tightening the screws and cracking plastic. We are, as a group, prone to overzealousness.
Re: motors, the only reasonably priced Alnico option would not allow nearly as much Xmech as the current motors. That is a real problem for OB use, as I imagine a few users might become, dare I repeat it, overzealous. Bottoming out voice coils can get ugly. I think others are using a very similar motor in similar applications, but for now, I'll steer clear. If I can find a way to get alnico on them for a reasonable price, I'll strongly consider it. The Seas Exotica costs what it does for a reason.
The cast basket I referenced earlier is on its way to a magnetics designer. It could well be that we don't find anything with a strong enough price/performance ratio to continue with. If we do, you'll likely see it. Anything new will be a fair bit more expensive, so the sonic improvement will need to be substantial to justify its existence.
Do keep the suggestions coming. Though I'm very happy with the Betsy and the BetsyK, I'll always be open to ideas.
Paul
Re: motors, the only reasonably priced Alnico option would not allow nearly as much Xmech as the current motors. That is a real problem for OB use, as I imagine a few users might become, dare I repeat it, overzealous. Bottoming out voice coils can get ugly. I think others are using a very similar motor in similar applications, but for now, I'll steer clear. If I can find a way to get alnico on them for a reasonable price, I'll strongly consider it. The Seas Exotica costs what it does for a reason.
The cast basket I referenced earlier is on its way to a magnetics designer. It could well be that we don't find anything with a strong enough price/performance ratio to continue with. If we do, you'll likely see it. Anything new will be a fair bit more expensive, so the sonic improvement will need to be substantial to justify its existence.
Do keep the suggestions coming. Though I'm very happy with the Betsy and the BetsyK, I'll always be open to ideas.
Paul
B200's are breaking in. Right off the bat, yowie, there is _lots_ of thump in the bass, and the stereo image is _extremely_ wide and detailed. The treble is a little "hard" though.
The room reflections are much more noticable with the B200 (I barely noticed them with Betsy). Betsy's treble is easy-going by comparison but beams more. The B200 is spraying out splashy "shimmers" everywhere on cymbals.
Unlike the Betsy, the B200 has no trouble with rock-and-roll (so far). B200's tom-toms have lots of weight (not fully real-life weight), and cymbals are incredibly "shimmery" but a bit too bright (we'll see). Strange to have so much bass and yet a bit too much treble -- that's a first for me.
So take your pick: affordable, easy-going but don't stress it out (Betsy), or for triple the money, a fullranger that can (almost?) do it all, with incredible imaging and detail, but it has a hard top end (I hope it relaxes, or I'll have to tame it by sitting off-axis).
Efficiency seems about the same but the drivers are really as different as can be in all other ways.
The room reflections are much more noticable with the B200 (I barely noticed them with Betsy). Betsy's treble is easy-going by comparison but beams more. The B200 is spraying out splashy "shimmers" everywhere on cymbals.
Unlike the Betsy, the B200 has no trouble with rock-and-roll (so far). B200's tom-toms have lots of weight (not fully real-life weight), and cymbals are incredibly "shimmery" but a bit too bright (we'll see). Strange to have so much bass and yet a bit too much treble -- that's a first for me.
So take your pick: affordable, easy-going but don't stress it out (Betsy), or for triple the money, a fullranger that can (almost?) do it all, with incredible imaging and detail, but it has a hard top end (I hope it relaxes, or I'll have to tame it by sitting off-axis).
Efficiency seems about the same but the drivers are really as different as can be in all other ways.
Good stuff!
I wonder if the B200 might, as others have measured, have a higher Qts. I suspect the bass between the two might be more similar if you add some series resistance to the Betsy. Of course, more bass may make her sound even tamer . . .
I was going to suggest this with the Betsy earlier, but if you are having room reflection issues (and even if you aren't) you might try crossing the drivers axis in front of you (over-toe some might call it). I know you had to play for awhile to get positioning just right. Mark the current location with masking tape before you move 'em! A side benefit is that the sweet spot gets wider, and more tolerable for additional listeners.
Finally, how about some pics of those baffles? I put unfinished cheapo plywood on my commercial site, so nothing is too ugly for us here!
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
I wonder if the B200 might, as others have measured, have a higher Qts. I suspect the bass between the two might be more similar if you add some series resistance to the Betsy. Of course, more bass may make her sound even tamer . . .
I was going to suggest this with the Betsy earlier, but if you are having room reflection issues (and even if you aren't) you might try crossing the drivers axis in front of you (over-toe some might call it). I know you had to play for awhile to get positioning just right. Mark the current location with masking tape before you move 'em! A side benefit is that the sweet spot gets wider, and more tolerable for additional listeners.
Finally, how about some pics of those baffles? I put unfinished cheapo plywood on my commercial site, so nothing is too ugly for us here!
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Hi Paul, I too read that B200's in the wild have a Q of about 1. Thank you for the good advice on the cork and positioning.
I ended up liking 45 degrees of toe-in, so they cross in front. I still hope the B200's high end calms down though. It's a bit shrill and piercing right now.
I will be psyched to post a picture (when I can get a camera) because my build looks _exactly_ like yours, down to the last detail (unfinished cabinet-grade ply). So I think you'll have a laugh at my literalism.
That's cool that you're a live musician. I tell people I'm a "recovering guitarist."
I ended up liking 45 degrees of toe-in, so they cross in front. I still hope the B200's high end calms down though. It's a bit shrill and piercing right now.
I will be psyched to post a picture (when I can get a camera) because my build looks _exactly_ like yours, down to the last detail (unfinished cabinet-grade ply). So I think you'll have a laugh at my literalism.
That's cool that you're a live musician. I tell people I'm a "recovering guitarist."
http://www.visaton.de/bilder/frequenz/gross/b200_6_fs.gif
I have read others have used circuits to pad down the B200's response above 1khz which brings the B200 to about 90db per watt... The Betsy sounds louder than the Pioneer B20 (which sound best to me on axis) i have on hand and sound much bigger too. For sure, the Betsy needs break in time. They sound 'chalky' at first but smooth out in a couple days of steady playing. This morning i was greeted to some warm, smooth Betsy's... like a smooth cup of coffee. Betsy's can be tamed with toe in whereas the B200's look like they need a circuit. I can't wait to get mine on OBs and compare them to my BIBs!
Godzilla
I have read others have used circuits to pad down the B200's response above 1khz which brings the B200 to about 90db per watt... The Betsy sounds louder than the Pioneer B20 (which sound best to me on axis) i have on hand and sound much bigger too. For sure, the Betsy needs break in time. They sound 'chalky' at first but smooth out in a couple days of steady playing. This morning i was greeted to some warm, smooth Betsy's... like a smooth cup of coffee. Betsy's can be tamed with toe in whereas the B200's look like they need a circuit. I can't wait to get mine on OBs and compare them to my BIBs!
Godzilla
>>> Are you going to use the Betsys in the "Betsy and Boomer" configuration?
Yes. I'm half done cutting up the baffles and expect to be done this weekend. Sometime next week i hope to have a pair of Betsy/Boomers in my listening room. The past few days i have my Betsy's playing non stop in sealed cabs (they took over for my B20s which will go back eventually). FYI, the Betsy/Boomer will look different than what you see on the website. I've simplified the plans so the speaker 'cabinet' doesn't angle back. I want to keep things simple as possible while maximizing performance!
Your listening impressions are much appreciated! Please let us know if you use a circuit on the B200s.
Godzilla
Yes. I'm half done cutting up the baffles and expect to be done this weekend. Sometime next week i hope to have a pair of Betsy/Boomers in my listening room. The past few days i have my Betsy's playing non stop in sealed cabs (they took over for my B20s which will go back eventually). FYI, the Betsy/Boomer will look different than what you see on the website. I've simplified the plans so the speaker 'cabinet' doesn't angle back. I want to keep things simple as possible while maximizing performance!
Your listening impressions are much appreciated! Please let us know if you use a circuit on the B200s.
Godzilla
Here is the average data from 4 i measured.
Fs 50.37
Re 4.75
Qms 9.99
Qes 1.08
Qts 0.97
Vas 71.38
Mms 9.75
Sd 221.67
dB 91.37
Vms 1.03E-06
BL 3.69
One must keep in mind that the measurements we take are scalars sucked from a curve, and the numbers you get depend where on the curve.
The attached are the measures i made for a pair of FE127eN and the measures made by Mark Fenlon using kit more often used by the big guys(along with factory for reference)
I made the statement at the time i 1st posted these, that i expected each set of measures to be perfectly valid. MJK didn't think this possible.
I recently got more support for my supposition. All of my measures for FE126e (n ~ 200) are equally far adrift from the factory as my FE127 measures, but i heard from Madisound that their measures using Audio Presicion pretty much coincide with factory.
What is becoming clearer is that a way of mesuring T/S curves and then modeling with the curves is necessary to take modeling to the next level.
dave
Fs 50.37
Re 4.75
Qms 9.99
Qes 1.08
Qts 0.97
Vas 71.38
Mms 9.75
Sd 221.67
dB 91.37
Vms 1.03E-06
BL 3.69
One must keep in mind that the measurements we take are scalars sucked from a curve, and the numbers you get depend where on the curve.
The attached are the measures i made for a pair of FE127eN and the measures made by Mark Fenlon using kit more often used by the big guys(along with factory for reference)
I made the statement at the time i 1st posted these, that i expected each set of measures to be perfectly valid. MJK didn't think this possible.
I recently got more support for my supposition. All of my measures for FE126e (n ~ 200) are equally far adrift from the factory as my FE127 measures, but i heard from Madisound that their measures using Audio Presicion pretty much coincide with factory.
What is becoming clearer is that a way of mesuring T/S curves and then modeling with the curves is necessary to take modeling to the next level.
dave
Attachments
Here is my progress so far on the Betsy-Boomer. I need to cut bases so they will stand up with the drivers mounted. Easy build bc there is complete access to the front and rear of the baffle. I hope to have drivers mounted and everything hooked up for listening and tuning in the coming days. You can see my BIBs in the background along with H-frames and a super tweeter that i will incorporate into the build. I look forward to comparing the two setups.
Godzilla
Godzilla
Attachments
Looking sharp there, Godzilla.
I have thrashed the B200's for a week. The B200 is an ambitious driver. There are lower low's (31.5 Hz is just barely audible) and higher high's, so off-axis listening is required and it takes a lot of tweaking. By comparison, the Betsy was a snap to setup but it wasn't trying to go as low.
The torture test I'm using is Bill Evans Trio's "Waltz for Debby". The Betsy's were plenty happy just 4 feet off the back wall, but it looks like the B200's need to be 5 or even 6 feet (!!) from the back wall to get more clarity in the bass.
Ultimately, I am going to use a spare PC as the source so I can EQ the mids and highs down, a la our thread-starter and guru Bob Brines. I just got the Music Streamer+ DAC and it's very nice. Pics to follow next week.
I have thrashed the B200's for a week. The B200 is an ambitious driver. There are lower low's (31.5 Hz is just barely audible) and higher high's, so off-axis listening is required and it takes a lot of tweaking. By comparison, the Betsy was a snap to setup but it wasn't trying to go as low.
The torture test I'm using is Bill Evans Trio's "Waltz for Debby". The Betsy's were plenty happy just 4 feet off the back wall, but it looks like the B200's need to be 5 or even 6 feet (!!) from the back wall to get more clarity in the bass.
Ultimately, I am going to use a spare PC as the source so I can EQ the mids and highs down, a la our thread-starter and guru Bob Brines. I just got the Music Streamer+ DAC and it's very nice. Pics to follow next week.
>>> Godzilla, wouldn't those wings at fullranger height interfere with the midband?
We shall see... but i don't expect them to.
My back went out yesterday (i was disarming someone with a gun during krav maga class... green belt test next thursday) and could not do much speaker building. But tonight i put together a pair of very cheap speakers from PE buyouts. Drilling, screwing lol, and wiring them up, not to mention listening to them thru a cheap sonic impact amp really loosened up my back for the better! Speaker building is good!
Godzilla
We shall see... but i don't expect them to.
My back went out yesterday (i was disarming someone with a gun during krav maga class... green belt test next thursday) and could not do much speaker building. But tonight i put together a pair of very cheap speakers from PE buyouts. Drilling, screwing lol, and wiring them up, not to mention listening to them thru a cheap sonic impact amp really loosened up my back for the better! Speaker building is good!
Godzilla
I can't imagine they would. If those little wings were a problem, one would think a box would be a huge problem! I recall seeing some narrow OB's with really deep wings. I imagine that at some point, you develop a resonance strong enough to be an issue. I think Zilla's design is quite a bit shy of that.
Speaking of the SI, I need to get downstairs and try out my new Sure TA2024 board and Mean Well supply (not for me, part of the BetsyK TL setup for my brother in law). The Sure board makes the SI look pretty laughable, and its less than $20! The SI's lack of low bass is a plus in my book when used with a simple Betsy OB (prevents wasting excursion and thus creating more distortion by not pushing the driver where it isn't making sound anyway). But with helper woofers or a box, the Sure's extension will be welcome. The PCB also looks easier to mod. I'll be replacing the input caps and eliminating the low pass filter at the input (hopefully that doesn't create a noise problem when I shoehorn the amp and smps into the same box). I'm curious to compare the finished unit to my chip amp.
Don't think I'm bashing the SI. It is still a steal, and mine trounced some fancy gear (before I accidentally killed it). For those that don't want to solder, the finished amps with the Sure boards are the same price though (and better looking), which makes them a real contender.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
My only camera is a cellphone. Here are the OB's in a temporary location, with the B200's, which demand that the wings be folded back.
The little amps are a Dared MP5 on the left, and the Bottlehead on the right. The Bottlehead is a lot sweeter but has just 2 watts to the Dared's 13 watts. (And behind the amps is our pride and joy, a wood stove that fits inside the previously useless fireplace -- winter is pretty cold at 7,000 feet.)
The little amps are a Dared MP5 on the left, and the Bottlehead on the right. The Bottlehead is a lot sweeter but has just 2 watts to the Dared's 13 watts. (And behind the amps is our pride and joy, a wood stove that fits inside the previously useless fireplace -- winter is pretty cold at 7,000 feet.)
Attachments
Mine is labeled as the original HTS. Really need to try some cryoed ECC85s in it.
dave
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.