Re: Re: Rc Constant Degoutants...
Koinichiwa Daniel San,
Please do not take me wrong, but ultimatly there is no such as a "signal" path (as opposed to a "non signal path"). If coupling capacitors make a material difference, then SO MUST the PSU Cap's (more actualy in most cases).
The differences between the same amp, already minimised for PSU Influence by using clever 70+ old cancelation schemes still showed a quite substantial difference between a PSU executed with "decent" (up to BG WK/WKZ & Elna Cerafine level) elkaps and good quality MKP's in the same position, often lower in value for the MKP's.
Now if you remove a coupling cap, you do not remove it, you simply move it "elsewhere". What in the end is preferrable is a "designers & customers" choice.
All that considered however and moving on, elcaps, even BG's age quite rapidly (compared to PIO's or film units).
I for one project a lifespan for my own (design) gear past the 5 Year mark, with the maximum service involving some new Valves, straight plug in (no ******* bias or Hum pots to deal with). In which case only non-electrolytic capitors may apply in the first place.
With good MKP's or Os-Con/SND Ceramic Combos often sounding as good or better as the BG's and often costing materially less you need some bloody serious reason to use BG's (except bragging rights).
I CAN see the size issue, but that is a simple design question.
Sayoanra
Koinichiwa Daniel San,
Peter Daniel said:
Please do not take me wrong, but ultimatly there is no such as a "signal" path (as opposed to a "non signal path"). If coupling capacitors make a material difference, then SO MUST the PSU Cap's (more actualy in most cases).
The differences between the same amp, already minimised for PSU Influence by using clever 70+ old cancelation schemes still showed a quite substantial difference between a PSU executed with "decent" (up to BG WK/WKZ & Elna Cerafine level) elkaps and good quality MKP's in the same position, often lower in value for the MKP's.
Now if you remove a coupling cap, you do not remove it, you simply move it "elsewhere". What in the end is preferrable is a "designers & customers" choice.
All that considered however and moving on, elcaps, even BG's age quite rapidly (compared to PIO's or film units).
I for one project a lifespan for my own (design) gear past the 5 Year mark, with the maximum service involving some new Valves, straight plug in (no ******* bias or Hum pots to deal with). In which case only non-electrolytic capitors may apply in the first place.
With good MKP's or Os-Con/SND Ceramic Combos often sounding as good or better as the BG's and often costing materially less you need some bloody serious reason to use BG's (except bragging rights).
I CAN see the size issue, but that is a simple design question.
Sayoanra
Hi Frank,
Since we are discussing caps here, I would like to ask you what you think about Vishays S102? I started using them recently, but almost always they seem to be too laid back, too mellow and I end up replacing them with Rikens. Even today, I had a friend of mine listening to a DAC and he also commented about those Vishays. He said that everything sounded fine, vocals were OK but when it came to sax, it seemed like it was a layer of film around it and didn't sound right. Also they seem to have fine detail, but it's very reomote, while Rikens for instance, give it to you right away and they seem to be faster because of that. I remember you commented you liked Vishays, so what do you think?
Since we are discussing caps here, I would like to ask you what you think about Vishays S102? I started using them recently, but almost always they seem to be too laid back, too mellow and I end up replacing them with Rikens. Even today, I had a friend of mine listening to a DAC and he also commented about those Vishays. He said that everything sounded fine, vocals were OK but when it came to sax, it seemed like it was a layer of film around it and didn't sound right. Also they seem to have fine detail, but it's very reomote, while Rikens for instance, give it to you right away and they seem to be faster because of that. I remember you commented you liked Vishays, so what do you think?
Re: Re: Re: Rc Constant Degoutants...
$5 for a 4.7u cap, as good as most average film caps, is not that bad.
I still think that a cap in direct coupling application makes more difference sonically, than a cap in PS, but my recent experiments with GC show that the difference will not be that big. I was quite surprised.
One other area to avoid too many caps are speakers crossovers. I recently changed my crossovers (2nd and 3rd order) to no crossover in mids and a series cap in tweeter and it seems to sound much better.
So many people are concerned with the sound of caps, but sonic differences in resistors are the same, not to mention the active devices. So many choices, so little time
Kuei Yang Wang said:
$5 for a 4.7u cap, as good as most average film caps, is not that bad.
I still think that a cap in direct coupling application makes more difference sonically, than a cap in PS, but my recent experiments with GC show that the difference will not be that big. I was quite surprised.
One other area to avoid too many caps are speakers crossovers. I recently changed my crossovers (2nd and 3rd order) to no crossover in mids and a series cap in tweeter and it seems to sound much better.
So many people are concerned with the sound of caps, but sonic differences in resistors are the same, not to mention the active devices. So many choices, so little time
STICKING MY NEC OUT...
Hi,
Sticking to the Latin language there's a difference...I never said both were the same anyway.
Don't worry about it though..
Caps?
Nevermind, I suppose you mean resistors?
As far as the Vishays go, the S102 series are my favourites for low duty purposes, never use them for current or voltage carrying duty or they'll inevitably will start to sound harsh.
As far as the Riken go, you're absolutely spot on, IMHO...let's just say I like the Vishays for metrology, they're dead on, sound neutral...just don't push'em into heavy duty...the Riken and Kiwame are the better resistor for going into service...if they need to disappate a 1/4 W or more these Jappies will be less obtrusive than say your average industrial same wattage resistor.
Just my opinion though,
Hi,
Sticking to the Latin language there's a difference...I never said both were the same anyway.
Don't worry about it though..
Caps?
Nevermind, I suppose you mean resistors?
As far as the Vishays go, the S102 series are my favourites for low duty purposes, never use them for current or voltage carrying duty or they'll inevitably will start to sound harsh.
As far as the Riken go, you're absolutely spot on, IMHO...let's just say I like the Vishays for metrology, they're dead on, sound neutral...just don't push'em into heavy duty...the Riken and Kiwame are the better resistor for going into service...if they need to disappate a 1/4 W or more these Jappies will be less obtrusive than say your average industrial same wattage resistor.
Just my opinion though,
I just did an experiment again. I took my
old DAC and added a 7806CV and a switch. I can quickly switch between 5V and 6V now (3x1k). The second regulator is a 7805CT. BTW: does anybody know what the best 78xx's are !?
I still use the 22 uF 6.3 BG NX's, they work fine. I started without knowing which switch position corresponded with which voltage. I preferred one configuration quite clearly. It's the 6V voltage
The DC voltage at the DAC output is 3.05V for both voltages. That should be ok...
The 6V version has more air & better dynamics. It's more realistic IMHO. The 5V version sounds more congested. Now I'll continue with my experiments...
Fedde
ps. I love the CD "Glow" from Al Jarreau I am just playing...
old DAC and added a 7806CV and a switch. I can quickly switch between 5V and 6V now (3x1k). The second regulator is a 7805CT. BTW: does anybody know what the best 78xx's are !?
I still use the 22 uF 6.3 BG NX's, they work fine. I started without knowing which switch position corresponded with which voltage. I preferred one configuration quite clearly. It's the 6V voltage
The DC voltage at the DAC output is 3.05V for both voltages. That should be ok...
The 6V version has more air & better dynamics. It's more realistic IMHO. The 5V version sounds more congested. Now I'll continue with my experiments...
Fedde
ps. I love the CD "Glow" from Al Jarreau I am just playing...
REGS....
Hi,
None of the 78/79xxxs are something to right home about as far as bandwidth is concerned...in the context of a DAC this limited bandwidth may actually work in your favour.
I am surprised you can even hear such a small difference...in valve electronics I always try to start from a much higher voltage than I actually need for the circuit to operate correctly.
One audible benefit is greater dynamic range...
Cheers,
Hi,
None of the 78/79xxxs are something to right home about as far as bandwidth is concerned...in the context of a DAC this limited bandwidth may actually work in your favour.
I am surprised you can even hear such a small difference...in valve electronics I always try to start from a much higher voltage than I actually need for the circuit to operate correctly.
One audible benefit is greater dynamic range...
Cheers,
fedde said:I just did an experiment again. I took my
old DAC and added a 7806CV and a switch. I can quickly switch between 5V and 6V now (3x1k). The second regulator is a 7805CT. BTW: does anybody know what the best 78xx's are !?
Fedde
ps. I love the CD "Glow" from Al Jarreau I am just playing...
Motorola
Al Jarreau is OK as well, I think I have about al the records on vinyl as well (but my phono amp is down :-(
all the best
Re: REGS....
The difference is pretty good audible. And my Tannoys are usually quite revealing. A switch really helps, I can change the supply immediatly (without clicks!). And I can do a sort of blind test, because I didn't look what switch position referred to which supply. If the difference between capacitors is audible, then....
Fedde
Originally posted by fdegrove
I am surprised you can even hear such a small difference...in valve electronics I always try to start from a much higher voltage than I actually need for the circuit to operate correctly.
One audible benefit is greater dynamic range...
Cheers,
The difference is pretty good audible. And my Tannoys are usually quite revealing. A switch really helps, I can change the supply immediatly (without clicks!). And I can do a sort of blind test, because I didn't look what switch position referred to which supply. If the difference between capacitors is audible, then....
Fedde
Guido Tent said:
Thanks. Any difference between the subtypes: CT, CV etc. !?
I have onsemi and ST regulators here.
Guido Tent said:
My grandmother still has the Glow record. I can have it !!!
But I don't have a turntable...
I have almost all cd's of Al Jarreau. Glow is my favorite, followed by Look to the Rainbow (live in Europe), Jarreau and Tenderness (with many artists like Marcus Miller, David Sanborn, Kathleen Battle, regrettably not so good produced). I haven't heard the newest CD, I didn't like the last one very much (Tomorrow today). Too GRP, you see
I don't know why I like the music so much, probably it's a combination of Al's interpretation talent combined with good songs, arrangments and musicians (Tom Canning, Freddie Ravel!). Whoops, sorry for the thread kidnapping...
Fedde
I do find that the 78xx and 79xx regulators from various manufacturers measure somewhat differently. They also appear to possess distinctive sonic personalities. Sonically, rather than attempting to play audio cowboy and stating categorically that one is better or worse, I find it much more productive to match up the regulator to the circuit based on the sonic compatibility and total sonic results.
For example, on one previous occasion, blind testing revealed that a Motorola 78xx regulator (TO-220 package) sounded considerably less desireable for a specific application than any other 78xx regulator chosen for the test (including Toshiba, JRC, Mitsubishi, National Semiconductor models and so on). I believe that I ended up choosing a National Semiconductor regulator as sounding the most subjectively pleasing for this particular application. But for a different application, the most subjectively pleasing regulator could very well be different.
hth, jonathan carr
For example, on one previous occasion, blind testing revealed that a Motorola 78xx regulator (TO-220 package) sounded considerably less desireable for a specific application than any other 78xx regulator chosen for the test (including Toshiba, JRC, Mitsubishi, National Semiconductor models and so on). I believe that I ended up choosing a National Semiconductor regulator as sounding the most subjectively pleasing for this particular application. But for a different application, the most subjectively pleasing regulator could very well be different.
hth, jonathan carr
Non Oversampling
I don't want to take this thread in another direction altogether but I tried to post a new thread and all I got was a message to do a search - any help?
Now that a number of people have purchased the CD PRO module maybe some of you can answer a number of questions I posted a long time back 04-06- 2002
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...p?threadid=3022
about trying to mod a Marantz CD4000 (same as Phillips CD713, 723) into non oversampling mode by
- using computer linked to CD4000 running DSA software (available on Daisy laser site http://www.daisy-laser.com/download.../dsaprogram.zip) which should allow reading DSA commands from CD4000 and sending DSA commands to CD4000 thereby changing sampling mode to whatever is liked I2S, Sony 16 bit, Sony 18 bit and whatever oversampling is liked non, 2 times, 4 times. I tried this software and only partially succeeded in getting it to read data coming from CD4000 - couldn't write anything to CD4000. Has anybody since tried this software? Could be an interesting tool to test various modes and sampling rates provided DAC chip is capable of interfacing with these modes.
OR
- a second way of achieving the same objective (and possibly better permanent solution) was to buy the display module from Homeoptics which If I remember correctly has various jumper settings which allow the user to set modes and sampling rates ( am I correct here?). Only problem for me was Daisy (Nico) does not sell display module seperately, he will include extra display modules with CD Pro purchases and this may well be an avenue worth looking into if there is any interest.
I am launching this out there to see if it floats
I don't want to take this thread in another direction altogether but I tried to post a new thread and all I got was a message to do a search - any help?
Now that a number of people have purchased the CD PRO module maybe some of you can answer a number of questions I posted a long time back 04-06- 2002
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...p?threadid=3022
about trying to mod a Marantz CD4000 (same as Phillips CD713, 723) into non oversampling mode by
- using computer linked to CD4000 running DSA software (available on Daisy laser site http://www.daisy-laser.com/download.../dsaprogram.zip) which should allow reading DSA commands from CD4000 and sending DSA commands to CD4000 thereby changing sampling mode to whatever is liked I2S, Sony 16 bit, Sony 18 bit and whatever oversampling is liked non, 2 times, 4 times. I tried this software and only partially succeeded in getting it to read data coming from CD4000 - couldn't write anything to CD4000. Has anybody since tried this software? Could be an interesting tool to test various modes and sampling rates provided DAC chip is capable of interfacing with these modes.
OR
- a second way of achieving the same objective (and possibly better permanent solution) was to buy the display module from Homeoptics which If I remember correctly has various jumper settings which allow the user to set modes and sampling rates ( am I correct here?). Only problem for me was Daisy (Nico) does not sell display module seperately, he will include extra display modules with CD Pro purchases and this may well be an avenue worth looking into if there is any interest.
I am launching this out there to see if it floats
non oversampling
Sorry, maybe my information just posted is out of date? Do Homeoptics supply the same display module as is specified on Daisy-Laser site? http://www.daisy-laser.com/display_tn1.htm
If so then the user can control the mode and sampling rate by the use of jumpers on the display pcb as per the following:
http://www.daisy-laser.com/downloads/products/CD/modules/anslmk39901.pdf
I find this of interest in a number of ways for experimenting with easy selection of different modes I2S, EAIJ and different sample rates 1 times (non), 2 times and 4 times oversampling.
Anybody know about this?
John
Sorry, maybe my information just posted is out of date? Do Homeoptics supply the same display module as is specified on Daisy-Laser site? http://www.daisy-laser.com/display_tn1.htm
If so then the user can control the mode and sampling rate by the use of jumpers on the display pcb as per the following:
http://www.daisy-laser.com/downloads/products/CD/modules/anslmk39901.pdf
I find this of interest in a number of ways for experimenting with easy selection of different modes I2S, EAIJ and different sample rates 1 times (non), 2 times and 4 times oversampling.
Anybody know about this?
John
Non OS
Peter,
that's a pity the Daisy-laser site has the following info http://www.daisy-laser.com/download...anslmk39901.pdf which specifies this way of working.
Have you tried to downlaod DSA comms software to communicate via PC with your CD and modify the modes/sampling rates this way? http://www.daisy-laser.com/download.../dsaprogram.zip)?
John
Peter,
that's a pity the Daisy-laser site has the following info http://www.daisy-laser.com/download...anslmk39901.pdf which specifies this way of working.
Have you tried to downlaod DSA comms software to communicate via PC with your CD and modify the modes/sampling rates this way? http://www.daisy-laser.com/download.../dsaprogram.zip)?
John
About displays...
The display-unit for the "PRO" ( http://www.daisy-laser.nl/homeoptics/ ) is not the same as this: http://www.daisy-laser.com/display_tn1.htm.
And you will not be able to buy it as a private...
(or anything on the http://www.daisy-laser.nl site...)
exept the "kit" on these pages: http://www.daisy-laser.nl/homeoptics/
Arne K
The display-unit for the "PRO" ( http://www.daisy-laser.nl/homeoptics/ ) is not the same as this: http://www.daisy-laser.com/display_tn1.htm.
And you will not be able to buy it as a private...
(or anything on the http://www.daisy-laser.nl site...)
exept the "kit" on these pages: http://www.daisy-laser.nl/homeoptics/
Arne K
LM431's....
So... If I use 6v batteries to power the CS8412, TDA1543 and 74VHC74..
and use LM431's on all power/gnd combo's... what value of that initial resistor should I use?
Should I use 2x 1K resistors across the LM431's like in the schematics?
Thanks!!!!
I'm slightly confused as the output voltage is dependent only on those 2 1K resistors according to the datasheets.. Not that initial series resistor.
So... If I use 6v batteries to power the CS8412, TDA1543 and 74VHC74..
and use LM431's on all power/gnd combo's... what value of that initial resistor should I use?
Should I use 2x 1K resistors across the LM431's like in the schematics?
Thanks!!!!
I'm slightly confused as the output voltage is dependent only on those 2 1K resistors according to the datasheets.. Not that initial series resistor.
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