Silent Screamer, if "building" is the extent to which you want to go with the project, then I'd recommend going for a kit or one of the above-recommended designers' offerings. Evidently, you're quite OK with building the hardware, but that's not really the difficult part. Designing a loudspeaker has it own special requirements. You'd need measurement equipment and a fair bit of know-how to wring the best from your drivers. It is no small task to beat the likes of SF. I promise you it won't happen using your '90s approach.
Experience in carpentry only means you are able to build a good looking speaker (BTW good work). Designing a speaker only by ears and without simulation and measurement devices is potentially a disaster.
Our designs are by definition the best
. What I don't understand is why you bought commercial speakers after your diy work, if you were able to design a truly good sounding speaker. The real thing is that designing even a 2-way crossover only by ear is a hard work, because is is not only about slopes (breakups? irregularities?), and a ear is not a linear device and is not flat across the whole range of frequencies.
I'm not saying you cannot achieve a hi-end design, what I'm trying to say is that there are now (not in the 90') lots of good and even free simulation software and inexpensive but good measurement devices that you HAVE to use if you would have success in this task. And learning starting with a project with expensive drivers could be a hard way to do that. In this respect I gave my recommendations. Building a respected design (Jazzman? Ekta Grande? Jensen 1071?) could be a viable solution because you seems to have the carpentry skill. Also start to design your own is good but I would start with inexpensive drivers.
Choose what you want, money is yours. I wish you good luck.
Ralf
Our designs are by definition the best
. What I don't understand is why you bought commercial speakers after your diy work, if you were able to design a truly good sounding speaker. The real thing is that designing even a 2-way crossover only by ear is a hard work, because is is not only about slopes (breakups? irregularities?), and a ear is not a linear device and is not flat across the whole range of frequencies.I'm not saying you cannot achieve a hi-end design, what I'm trying to say is that there are now (not in the 90') lots of good and even free simulation software and inexpensive but good measurement devices that you HAVE to use if you would have success in this task. And learning starting with a project with expensive drivers could be a hard way to do that. In this respect I gave my recommendations. Building a respected design (Jazzman? Ekta Grande? Jensen 1071?) could be a viable solution because you seems to have the carpentry skill. Also start to design your own is good but I would start with inexpensive drivers.
Choose what you want, money is yours. I wish you good luck.
Ralf
I only took that approach in the 90’s because I was at college and money was tight. I certainly wouldn’t try applying the same logic or approach with the new speakers.
The reason for working my way through the commercial speakers was to gain an understanding of what my type of sound was. I was heading down the M&K route until I discovered the Sonus Faber’s and that was when I ultimately discovered the natural tones I was looking for.
Both technology and financial situation have change significantly since those day and instead of laboriously trying to make perfectly round holes with a jigsaw and a file taking hundreds of hours I now have a $500 router that will produce superior results in a fraction of the time and allow me the opportunity to get far more creative with the design.
Same goes for the testing of the speakers, I plan to invest circa $800 on an EarthWorks measurement microphone to measure on axis and off axis sound with measurement software available on the market today.
Yes trying to build a set of speakers that will outperform the Cremona’s is not going to be an easy task, as they are brilliant sounding speakers in their own right. However with perseverance and willingness to see the project through, I do believe I’m in with a good chance of at the very least of equalling the performance of them with better drivers for cheaper.
As much as anything I just love the challenge of trying to do it my way, rather than just following what everyone else has done before, hence why I do projects like this http://www.evalbum.com/3343
I respect the caution that everyone is urging, and I do realise this is going to be a sizable challenge, but I think with further study and perseverance I will get there.
The reason for working my way through the commercial speakers was to gain an understanding of what my type of sound was. I was heading down the M&K route until I discovered the Sonus Faber’s and that was when I ultimately discovered the natural tones I was looking for.
Both technology and financial situation have change significantly since those day and instead of laboriously trying to make perfectly round holes with a jigsaw and a file taking hundreds of hours I now have a $500 router that will produce superior results in a fraction of the time and allow me the opportunity to get far more creative with the design.
Same goes for the testing of the speakers, I plan to invest circa $800 on an EarthWorks measurement microphone to measure on axis and off axis sound with measurement software available on the market today.
Yes trying to build a set of speakers that will outperform the Cremona’s is not going to be an easy task, as they are brilliant sounding speakers in their own right. However with perseverance and willingness to see the project through, I do believe I’m in with a good chance of at the very least of equalling the performance of them with better drivers for cheaper.
As much as anything I just love the challenge of trying to do it my way, rather than just following what everyone else has done before, hence why I do projects like this http://www.evalbum.com/3343
I respect the caution that everyone is urging, and I do realise this is going to be a sizable challenge, but I think with further study and perseverance I will get there.
Paul Murray's 2010 Electric Bike
I was always amazed by the possibilities offered by electric vehicles ,especially those contests made in your country with solar powered ones .
I think that the wheels you use are too large ! Too much energy wasted between the gum and the road !
I was always amazed by the possibilities offered by electric vehicles ,especially those contests made in your country with solar powered ones .
I think that the wheels you use are too large ! Too much energy wasted between the gum and the road !
lol would have gone bigger than 235's if they could be bought at a reasonable price.
Almost forgot to mention I wrote my own crossover software to build those speakers in the late 90's. Unfortunately I lost the source code in all the computer swaps long ago, but I wrote in in VB6.
Would be nice to see the code again, as this was my first real program I wrote, and I would get a laugh out of how primative it was.
Back then I couldn't find any free crossover software (poor student), but I could find the formulas so I decided to write my own. Why write software when I am only building one set of speakers? I am prone to doing things like that...
Almost forgot to mention I wrote my own crossover software to build those speakers in the late 90's. Unfortunately I lost the source code in all the computer swaps long ago, but I wrote in in VB6.
Would be nice to see the code again, as this was my first real program I wrote, and I would get a laugh out of how primative it was.
Back then I couldn't find any free crossover software (poor student), but I could find the formulas so I decided to write my own. Why write software when I am only building one set of speakers? I am prone to doing things like that...
Attachments
hi, would you also consider the Mundorf Tweeter?
Mundorf AMT2310C Air Motion Tweeter (Round/Square)(Black/Silver): Madisound Speaker Store
I haven't tried this myself but this is recommended as one of the top tweeters currently available in the market.
You can do a little research on the comments and review of such tweeters.
Hope it helps
Mundorf AMT2310C Air Motion Tweeter (Round/Square)(Black/Silver): Madisound Speaker Store
I haven't tried this myself but this is recommended as one of the top tweeters currently available in the market.
You can do a little research on the comments and review of such tweeters.
Hope it helps
Measurement device is a must, but before you should use some simulation software. If not you are basically shooting in the dark. I can suggest you to read: FRD Consortium tools guide
It seems to me a typical text-book approach. The problem is that the formulas for crossovers are always wrong because they consider the drivers a pure resistive load, and forget about the natural frequency response of the driver (on baffle or not). What is really important is the acoustic slope and not the electrical one, for example it can be achieved a LR4 acoustic slope with a 2nd order electrical crossover. See for example: Zaph|Audio
I use Passive Crossover Designer (a free Excel based simulation software), and it can show target slopes together with the frequency response of the drivers.
Ralf
Thanks Ralf I will look into that software you mentioned.
Mike they teamed up the Mundorf AMT2510C with the Scan Speak 18WU8741T here Humble Homemade Hifi throw in a 9"-10" Woofer for a 3 way...
Mike they teamed up the Mundorf AMT2510C with the Scan Speak 18WU8741T here Humble Homemade Hifi throw in a 9"-10" Woofer for a 3 way...
Hi,
Building a high performance high value speaker is one thing, building
a very high performance speakers with expensive drivers and x/o
parts quite another, particularly if you plan on building five.
The problem is its all conjecture to some degree until you get to hear
them. Having "better" drivers, for that read more expensive for the
most part, won't guarantee they will sound better than a very good
speaker you actually like. Not that the Cremona's are "perfect" :
Sonus Faber Cremona loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
The overall schema of the Cremona's is fairly simple, as long as
you get the drivers base sensitivities correct. TBH I can't see
the point of the slit cones on the bass units, but YMMV.
rgds, sreten.
Building a high performance high value speaker is one thing, building
a very high performance speakers with expensive drivers and x/o
parts quite another, particularly if you plan on building five.
The problem is its all conjecture to some degree until you get to hear
them. Having "better" drivers, for that read more expensive for the
most part, won't guarantee they will sound better than a very good
speaker you actually like. Not that the Cremona's are "perfect" :
Sonus Faber Cremona loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
The overall schema of the Cremona's is fairly simple, as long as
you get the drivers base sensitivities correct. TBH I can't see
the point of the slit cones on the bass units, but YMMV.
rgds, sreten.
Ooh, the devil is in the detail, NOT so cheap tweeter...Hi,
Building a high performance high value speaker is one thing, building
a very high performance speakers with expensive drivers and x/o
parts quite another, particularly if you plan on building five.
The problem is its all conjecture to some degree until you get to hear
them. Having "better" drivers, for that read more expensive for the
most part, won't guarantee they will sound better than a very good
speaker you actually like. Not that the Cremona's are "perfect" :
Sonus Faber Cremona loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Ooh, something interesting in there. It's a custom tweeter!
The overall schema of the Cremona's is fairly simple, as long as
you get the drivers base sensitivities correct. TBH I can't see
the point of the slit cones on the bass units, but YMMV.
rgds, sreten.
Sonus Faber Cremona loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
I think changing the tweeter might not be the issue here. There is a TINY little fault around 900Hz according to the review. Placement seems important.
Hello sreten !
There is one little thing that bothers me a bit too much and that is
the 120 Hz bump on the impedance curve. This shows on frequency
response too. One would think that for the price paid , the box should
be free of standing waves. Well, I may be wrong about this one.
Looking at Cremona's tweeter response becomes clear to me why
Silent Screamer may have felt Cremonas weren't so vocally precise
comparing to Electa Amator 2. Now we only need to look for the Electa's
measurements
Hi,
Both the reported issues would bother me, if Sonus didn't fix them
themselves. I'd line the top port with foam to kill its pipe resonance.
The clear 120Hz issue looks like a vertical standing wave issue,
your right, such a speaker should never have such a problem,
perhaps something internal was missing, something like that.
I'd have to open them up to investigate ......
rgds, sreten.
All the Cremona drivers are custom but based on existing drivers.
Magnets and the magnetic circuit can be modified, and voice coils
custom lengths and impedances, but beyond that there is not
much more you can change for a high quality driver easily.
Last edited:
I will jusy say a couple of things make sure you research...for a very long time...till you struggle to learn anything new about crossovers/speaker design before you attempt to design anything...and dont buy any drivers till then.
I mentioned power response and you mentioned you didnt look at off axis response in another post...this makes up power response. Polar response is another issue and how different filters/slopes effect these things vertically and horizontally different.
Power handling of drivers and different filters/rollofs. BSC how it works/voicing.
Impedance/resistance distortions harmonic/imd
Q and shaping
This is a tiny amount of what u need to know to makle it work.
You would thank me in years time...learn as much as you can first before you shell the cash for drivers. Buy ur testing equipment and experiment doing some driver/speaker testing FIRST.
Im not discouraging you at all but u have to understand u cant build a mercedes with just a srewdriver and jig saw no?
Who knows what will be out by the time you have the knowledge and experience to build something great...y spend all this now when better drivers may come out in 6 months then U sell the (not great anymore) speakers you have for 1/3 the price you paid for them?
In your test equipment you have to account for equipment distortion levels in testing and calibration. Simulation of responses at certain frequiencies unless you can measure so many metres off the ground in free air, room accoustics and reflections to fr response, anechoic chamber.
I know somethings about speakers and crossovers and everyhting associated (did study 6 months electrical engineering before the beer took over and I dropped out 12 years ago lol - I leaned this first then started learning about audio so im more "electrically minded" less so acoustically) and the reason I have so many different drivers here and have "played" with them is I used to sell them...and to be honest, I will still always get my crossovers designed by someone who is experienced in this and knows how to get things right at this point.
I know what it sounds like when its wrong even a little bit wrong will sound disastrous most of the time.
I do not have the time, resources or space to learn in depth and start a 1 year project at this point in time spending 6 months testing and learing equipment and procedures to be accurate enough and confident enough to design a world class speaker.
Just trying to help u on you journey...its a never ending learning quest and will consume more of your time than you realise...the more you learn...the more you need to learn.
I mentioned power response and you mentioned you didnt look at off axis response in another post...this makes up power response. Polar response is another issue and how different filters/slopes effect these things vertically and horizontally different.
Power handling of drivers and different filters/rollofs. BSC how it works/voicing.
Impedance/resistance distortions harmonic/imd
Q and shaping
This is a tiny amount of what u need to know to makle it work.
You would thank me in years time...learn as much as you can first before you shell the cash for drivers. Buy ur testing equipment and experiment doing some driver/speaker testing FIRST.
Im not discouraging you at all but u have to understand u cant build a mercedes with just a srewdriver and jig saw no?
Who knows what will be out by the time you have the knowledge and experience to build something great...y spend all this now when better drivers may come out in 6 months then U sell the (not great anymore) speakers you have for 1/3 the price you paid for them?
In your test equipment you have to account for equipment distortion levels in testing and calibration. Simulation of responses at certain frequiencies unless you can measure so many metres off the ground in free air, room accoustics and reflections to fr response, anechoic chamber.
I know somethings about speakers and crossovers and everyhting associated (did study 6 months electrical engineering before the beer took over and I dropped out 12 years ago lol - I leaned this first then started learning about audio so im more "electrically minded" less so acoustically) and the reason I have so many different drivers here and have "played" with them is I used to sell them...and to be honest, I will still always get my crossovers designed by someone who is experienced in this and knows how to get things right at this point.
I know what it sounds like when its wrong even a little bit wrong will sound disastrous most of the time.
I do not have the time, resources or space to learn in depth and start a 1 year project at this point in time spending 6 months testing and learing equipment and procedures to be accurate enough and confident enough to design a world class speaker.
Just trying to help u on you journey...its a never ending learning quest and will consume more of your time than you realise...the more you learn...the more you need to learn.
Last edited:
Thanks guys some pearls of wisdom in there. Was thinking last night I am probably trying to chew too much in one mouthful. Instead of trying to buy every driver I might possibly need before I start the project, perhaps I should take a couple of nibbles first.
If I was to say buy 2 tweeters and two 18WU drivers and build some initial boxes, then build a basic cross over and do some testing, then determine if I need to add additional drivers, or if I need to focus on adjusting the cross overs etc to get the balance right.
I vaguely remember wishing I had never bought the mid woofers for the project I did in the 90’s but it was too late not to use them once they were bought.
I think a more slowly slowly approach will give me more opportunity to evaluate each of the changes instead of trying to get it right first go. Wood is relatively cheap and if I need to build several boxes to get the volumes / shapes right, better to do that with make shift boxes first, then it is to be trying to rejig a finished speaker.
So if I was to start with a simple 2 way setup, would you be inclined to use the Mundorf AMT2510c or the Scan Speak D3004/664000 for the tweeter?
If I was to say buy 2 tweeters and two 18WU drivers and build some initial boxes, then build a basic cross over and do some testing, then determine if I need to add additional drivers, or if I need to focus on adjusting the cross overs etc to get the balance right.
I vaguely remember wishing I had never bought the mid woofers for the project I did in the 90’s but it was too late not to use them once they were bought.
I think a more slowly slowly approach will give me more opportunity to evaluate each of the changes instead of trying to get it right first go. Wood is relatively cheap and if I need to build several boxes to get the volumes / shapes right, better to do that with make shift boxes first, then it is to be trying to rejig a finished speaker.
So if I was to start with a simple 2 way setup, would you be inclined to use the Mundorf AMT2510c or the Scan Speak D3004/664000 for the tweeter?
Hi,
First of all I guess your decision to slow down is a good one
IMO Illuminators you may choose to buy are way overpriced and one
might think to be getting much more performance than with "mediocre"
drivers from the same manufacturer.
18 WU 8 ohms version does not appear to have high quality material
dust cap and I suspect it causes the 10 dB SPL rise and resonances in
that region. Not that it can't be filtered out.
18 WU 8 ohms can be expected to bass F3=50 Hz in 30 liters vented box.
If I were to build a fine 2 way system I 'd go with a 15W8530K01 and
get decent F3= 50 Hz or better, vented in 20 liters. Later I would add
a proper 10 inch woofer. Main reason for 15W is less cost, great performance
and nicer appearence in a 3 way box. For the tweeter part I believe that optimal
would be SS soft dome classic range.
You asked mundorf or SS. Definitely Scan Speak.
Anyway you should not be overly concerned with my opinions. It is all up to
you
Lojzek every opinion matters… not having personal experience with every single driver, sometimes other peoples educated guesses can be useful. As a general rule of thumb you seldom get a consensus on a bad item without someone popping up and saying “that is crap”.
So the more people that offer an opinion the better the way I see it, doesn’t mean you have to agree with it, but it does open your eyes to others views .
I read through the Cremona review last night and it was fairly well on the money. Quite some time ago I ran the test tone disk over and over on the Cremona’s and noticed the hole just above 100Hz and wondered if that was a problem with my hearing around that range that made it sound several db down, but it tested exactly as I heard it, so that was reassuring and the reviewer was right on the money with what they found. I didn’t agree with one small point that was made… The reviewer mentioned that the top port might be effecting something (can’t remember what it was) but I’m not sure how or why it would as the top port is completely isolated from the rest of the speaker cabinet (see attached, filler removed).
I also ran some simulations in Bass Box Pro last night and I think the 12MU would actually do a better job of filling in the mid to high frequencies over the physically larger 15w, hard to say without hearing the actually driver but on paper it looks a better fit. I also fiddled around with some woofers in BB6 Pro to see what might fill the bottom end in better than the Cremona, and quite surprisingly the smaller woofers actually did better than the older bigger woofers.
I tried the 30, 26 and 23 series and the 23W4557 which is designed for a sealed cabinet seemed to perform quite well. What did concern me though is the low efficiency of the larger drives with an SPL of 82db I would need 2 or 3 drivers to get up to the same sound level as the 12MU and the tweeter, perhaps a passive radiator arrangement? I have a sneaking suspicion that the low SPL is why many manufacturers have recently (last decade or so) opted for one or two 18 cm drivers as a compromise to getting low base with adequate SPL from larger drivers.
I sometimes use my older series Gravis Sub (the one with 1 active 2 passive 26w’s) to fill the bottom in when listening to music like Pink Floyd (I like to hear the lows of the tanks rumble from the start of the song not half way through the intro) and try adjust the sub to fit in with the Cremona’s but it is not a perfect mix for music. Perhaps if I built in 1 active, 2 passive 23W’s into the speaker it would be slightly tighter bass with the 3cm smaller diameter sub drivers, and not too over powering because it isn’t working in conjunction with the 2 Revelator 18’s that are in the Cremona’s???
So the more people that offer an opinion the better the way I see it, doesn’t mean you have to agree with it, but it does open your eyes to others views .
I read through the Cremona review last night and it was fairly well on the money. Quite some time ago I ran the test tone disk over and over on the Cremona’s and noticed the hole just above 100Hz and wondered if that was a problem with my hearing around that range that made it sound several db down, but it tested exactly as I heard it, so that was reassuring and the reviewer was right on the money with what they found. I didn’t agree with one small point that was made… The reviewer mentioned that the top port might be effecting something (can’t remember what it was) but I’m not sure how or why it would as the top port is completely isolated from the rest of the speaker cabinet (see attached, filler removed).
I also ran some simulations in Bass Box Pro last night and I think the 12MU would actually do a better job of filling in the mid to high frequencies over the physically larger 15w, hard to say without hearing the actually driver but on paper it looks a better fit. I also fiddled around with some woofers in BB6 Pro to see what might fill the bottom end in better than the Cremona, and quite surprisingly the smaller woofers actually did better than the older bigger woofers.
I tried the 30, 26 and 23 series and the 23W4557 which is designed for a sealed cabinet seemed to perform quite well. What did concern me though is the low efficiency of the larger drives with an SPL of 82db I would need 2 or 3 drivers to get up to the same sound level as the 12MU and the tweeter, perhaps a passive radiator arrangement? I have a sneaking suspicion that the low SPL is why many manufacturers have recently (last decade or so) opted for one or two 18 cm drivers as a compromise to getting low base with adequate SPL from larger drivers.
I sometimes use my older series Gravis Sub (the one with 1 active 2 passive 26w’s) to fill the bottom in when listening to music like Pink Floyd (I like to hear the lows of the tanks rumble from the start of the song not half way through the intro) and try adjust the sub to fit in with the Cremona’s but it is not a perfect mix for music. Perhaps if I built in 1 active, 2 passive 23W’s into the speaker it would be slightly tighter bass with the 3cm smaller diameter sub drivers, and not too over powering because it isn’t working in conjunction with the 2 Revelator 18’s that are in the Cremona’s???
Hi Silent Screamer,
A passive radiator may not be a good solution as it doesn't fit a driver for sealed box - you need to consider driver which is best for vented box to get a good Q . I had several speakers made and its impedance / frequency response are more like vented box.
IMO run 2-3 drivers would be a better solution
A passive radiator may not be a good solution as it doesn't fit a driver for sealed box - you need to consider driver which is best for vented box to get a good Q . I had several speakers made and its impedance / frequency response are more like vented box.
IMO run 2-3 drivers would be a better solution
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.