davidlzimmer said:I'm also pretty sure that Sakaru Systems can handle a little of our fun at their expense.
I think so too. This is probably old news, but Junji Kimura writes "It also opens up a wide window for many adventurous DIYers to experiment with their own unique ideas" in Op-amps are More Fun Than Tubes
Kimura knows who he caters to.
A good point.
Frankly though, I disagree. I think the people who auditioned this thing, paid the asking price and subsequently discovered that it cost ~1/10 of that to build (generous estimate) might care when they discover they've been ripped off. I'm all for profit, but there's a limit. Remember, not all buyers are particularly aware of technical details. If some people are daft enough to pay out this much knowing full well how little it's cost to make, then they deserve to be fleeced of course. To be fair, this isn't the worst example I've seen by a long shot. There's a small UK manufacturer who builds hybrid SS/Valve amps. One of their power amps has spectacularly little inside a large, and none-too-well-put-together case. They have the brass face to charge over £1000 for it. Total price of the parts (I checked) £87.46. It was reviewed as 'wonderful'. Power output was limp, distortion very high, construction quality apalling.
Frankly though, I disagree. I think the people who auditioned this thing, paid the asking price and subsequently discovered that it cost ~1/10 of that to build (generous estimate) might care when they discover they've been ripped off. I'm all for profit, but there's a limit. Remember, not all buyers are particularly aware of technical details. If some people are daft enough to pay out this much knowing full well how little it's cost to make, then they deserve to be fleeced of course. To be fair, this isn't the worst example I've seen by a long shot. There's a small UK manufacturer who builds hybrid SS/Valve amps. One of their power amps has spectacularly little inside a large, and none-too-well-put-together case. They have the brass face to charge over £1000 for it. Total price of the parts (I checked) £87.46. It was reviewed as 'wonderful'. Power output was limp, distortion very high, construction quality apalling.
My "favourite" scam product is the Linn Knekt Kiver system, which is a PC and a Linux OS masquerading as a home entertainment system priced at £15,000. Do people pay £15,000 because it's a home entertainment system (for which the original Xbox might be superior), or because it's Linn?
The power deficiency aside, the $30 Sonic Impact T amp is as good as the Gaincard. The people that pay $3,300 for the Gaincard don't want the SI.
When you buy a product you don't just by an item. You buy a symbol. The people that buy the Gaincard get their money's worth. They aren't getting any more ripped off than when they buy Versace.
Sorry for the hijack. I'm done now.
The power deficiency aside, the $30 Sonic Impact T amp is as good as the Gaincard. The people that pay $3,300 for the Gaincard don't want the SI.
When you buy a product you don't just by an item. You buy a symbol. The people that buy the Gaincard get their money's worth. They aren't getting any more ripped off than when they buy Versace.
Sorry for the hijack. I'm done now.
phn said:
Yes, you are absolutely right. Don't underestimate the power of symbols. It's a very powerful factor in what we all do.
Here's one of the more extreme examples I can think of:
Did you know that in the United States the sports fans of a given city will pay up to tens of millions of dollars a year to a single man because he's good at hitting a ball with a stick? Let me repeat that again: the sports fans of a city will pay a man up to TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year because he's good at HITTING A BALL WITH A STICK and running from base to base.
Allegedly, a group of these athletes represents the city in question - they are a symbol of the city. But in reality maybe only one or two, if any, of the athletes have any allegiance to the city other than the fact they they are paid to represent it.
Now, you may ask, what possible utility can anyone possibly receive from a guy, whom you'll probably never meet or even speak to, hitting a ball with a stick that's worth paying him millions and millions of dollars for? When I pay over $100 for a ticket per person per game, does the guy's ball hitting prowess fix the broken muffler on my car, or put money into my child's college education fund? I don't think so.
But, perversely, supporting this symbol of my city may help me bond with my immediate community and make it stronger. It may possibly even help me bond with my kids and family if we all participate and go to the game together. Moreover, if the values of the team I root for reflect my own values, supporting them is an affirmation of myself.
Now, I think the price of baseball tickets is way too high, but a lot of folks are OK with it because it does bring them this sense of involvement and bonding. For them, it's all worth it. That's the power of the symbol.
Same with hi-fi. People find value in intangibles that go beyond just the physical makeup or, sometimes even, the performance of the gear. And some people are willing to pay more for a certain type of gear if it reflects their values in hi-fi.
For example, I've never found Bang and Olufson stuff to sound top notch. But a lot of design-conscious folks value the looks of B&O gear and would rather have that in the house over a much better sounding, but clunky looking and hot running, 300B SET amp, or a menacing and boxy solid state amp. Good for them. B&O is there for them. And while I wouldn't go that route, I respect their values and their choice.
So whether someone want to spend more for an amp than I would, I leave that up to them. Just so long as they don't get preachy about what they value and try to shove it in my face, I'm happy just to live and let live.
Best,
KT
Banned
Joined 2002
Banned
Joined 2002
karma said:not everyone can make a $20 chipamp, or work with electronics for that mater. $1.800 is not a bad price for hand made audio.
personaly myself, i love the look of this work
cheers
I never said id didn't sound bad or lok bad. I just said 1800$ is way over priced for soemthng that consist's of maybe 200$ worth of part's. ( in this product. )
These boring "hey thats overpriced!" discussions...
You do not know how little money it cost to manufacture - say - a NAD amplifier. When Stan Curtis (of Cambridge Audio fame) was asked to design the classic NAD3020, he was told that it should cost not more than 17$, as far as I remember. When we were selling those in Austria (I was in retail then, way back in the eighties) they costed appr. 200EUR, halve of that amount was our profit margin...
One should be realistic with handmade amps (very high manufacturing costs, long development, small numbers, etc.). Maybe I do want to pay 2000$ for an amp like this, but mainly because I make the amps myself. Mine generally are - not like most of yours - much less pretty even than the Kore-Eda, soldering the parts is not making the actual amplifier, case work is pretty time consuming too - and not everybody is talented like PD and others.
I find it interesting how many different approaches with good sounding chipamps exist, although there seem to be so little variationpossibilities. I have made many in the meantime, some of them sounded extremly good, almost breathtakingly good, but some were merly average, or nothing special. It is still not very clear why: Sometimes it seems that i just altered one part, and sound changes completely. But even worse: Often one modification in one setup changes the sound to the good, in another setup it was without any effect. You probably know that.
Remember the times when everybody was wondering what the actual chip used in the GC was - finding out did solve the riddle immediatly. How much time we all put into searching and researching in the meantime (if I should also sell my amps, they would be much more costly than the Kore-Edas, concerning all the worktime...)
You do not know how little money it cost to manufacture - say - a NAD amplifier. When Stan Curtis (of Cambridge Audio fame) was asked to design the classic NAD3020, he was told that it should cost not more than 17$, as far as I remember. When we were selling those in Austria (I was in retail then, way back in the eighties) they costed appr. 200EUR, halve of that amount was our profit margin...
One should be realistic with handmade amps (very high manufacturing costs, long development, small numbers, etc.). Maybe I do want to pay 2000$ for an amp like this, but mainly because I make the amps myself. Mine generally are - not like most of yours - much less pretty even than the Kore-Eda, soldering the parts is not making the actual amplifier, case work is pretty time consuming too - and not everybody is talented like PD and others.
I find it interesting how many different approaches with good sounding chipamps exist, although there seem to be so little variationpossibilities. I have made many in the meantime, some of them sounded extremly good, almost breathtakingly good, but some were merly average, or nothing special. It is still not very clear why: Sometimes it seems that i just altered one part, and sound changes completely. But even worse: Often one modification in one setup changes the sound to the good, in another setup it was without any effect. You probably know that.
Remember the times when everybody was wondering what the actual chip used in the GC was - finding out did solve the riddle immediatly. How much time we all put into searching and researching in the meantime (if I should also sell my amps, they would be much more costly than the Kore-Edas, concerning all the worktime...)
Nike sneakers are made in some sweatshop for about $5 and then are sold for $500 or more. Would Nike sell more sneakers if it priced them at $100? No. The exclusivity would be gone. The desirability would be gone. The people that pay $500 for Nikes would never wear some "lousy" $100 sneakers. They would buy a pair $500 Adidas instead.
Few, if any, people on this forum would pay $3500 for a Kore-eda pre/power amp combo. People here either build from scratch or get some cheapo stuff and modify it.
But regardless if you pay $3500 for an amp or build it, it all comes down to self-realization; self-gratification.
We are all hams at heart.
Few, if any, people on this forum would pay $3500 for a Kore-eda pre/power amp combo. People here either build from scratch or get some cheapo stuff and modify it.
But regardless if you pay $3500 for an amp or build it, it all comes down to self-realization; self-gratification.
We are all hams at heart.
superhkm said:
Hi,
Isn't a large proportion of the typical R&D costs lumped onto the manufacturer who designed the chip, and built the chip for a particular purpose. This makes pretty good business sense.
However, following or tweaking the datasheets could mean that differences in commercial units might come down to aesthetics alone, and also DIY units should match or even excel commercial offerings.
I may build a gainclone (the biggest problem I see is in designing/ building the casework).
In the meantime, a positive review of the Kore-eda LLA-1 preamp and
PLA-1 amp at dagogo (Nov, 2006), but no detail on active components:
http://www.dagogo.com/Kore-edaAmpSystm.html
PLA-1 amp at dagogo (Nov, 2006), but no detail on active components:
http://www.dagogo.com/Kore-edaAmpSystm.html
URL is dead - here the same by web archive:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060715194649/http://www.sakurasystems.com/products/koreeda.htmlis the sonic character similar to those from this amplifier ?
https://www.sakurasystems.com/reference/gaincard.html