cost per channel...
Hi Thomas,
I have tried the 4 inch ferrite High Wave drivers....Cheap but not so good sound quality...The CSS 4.5 inch Neo driver is way better, much more expensive, but way better and very good value for money.
I always look at total cost per channel....
So far the version of BMR that I have arrived at is the best value I have ever heard....I am very happy!
Hope your experiments make you happy too!
All the best
Derek.
Hi Thomas,
I have tried the 4 inch ferrite High Wave drivers....Cheap but not so good sound quality...The CSS 4.5 inch Neo driver is way better, much more expensive, but way better and very good value for money.
I always look at total cost per channel....
So far the version of BMR that I have arrived at is the best value I have ever heard....I am very happy!
Hope your experiments make you happy too!
All the best
Derek.
Hi,
Just notice there's a new BMR
New Tectonic Elements Balanced Mode Radiator | Tectonic Elements
Not big enough for bass but its 86db/m
Just notice there's a new BMR
New Tectonic Elements Balanced Mode Radiator | Tectonic Elements
Not big enough for bass but its 86db/m
So what, TB Flatcones have about the same openings, and look at these Altecs JE Labs Arkiv: WE/Altec 755 Part 1
You have to hear it to know.
You have to hear it to know.
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I spent most of saturday listening to my system along with a friends really good amp/dac. Mostly with ripped cd's or 320kbps Spotify streams.
Mine is Mac Mini - MiniDSP 2x8 - Rotel 8channel. I had the BMR's running above some pro Beyma 10" woofers, below 200Hz. The BMR's sounded really nice.
We later switched to using the mac mini and the Gainclone Amp/Dac and tried out my bookshelf Mark Audio A7.3, Pensil Mark Audio A10.3's and later the BMR's running full range.
The 7.3' took it for shear hi-end, breath and airiness.
The 10.3's lacked a little sparkle at the top end, but would hit the low notes and definately filled the room better.
The BMR's sounded good, really good, but something I felt was missing.
In the latter test these were run full range, and played quite loud, with which I feel they struggled a bit. Most have said they do need to be crossed to a woofer below 200Hz and I wonder if this would let up a bit for the top end.
These were in small 2.5L sealed test enclosures, with minimal dampening. They seem to provide incredible loud and clear sound, with almost no visible movement of the 'cone'. They seemed to have great macro dynamics and all the little bits in between songs really came out. But rather flat compared to the Alpairs, specifically the A7.3's.
I think I need to re-jig my MiniDsp setup and perhaps get better amps, as these differences were only audio on my friends system. This would allow better integration with the woofer, and perhaps provide some EQ where needed.
I think they are promising, but need some work on the front end, and with some cabinet optimisation to get the very best from them.
I'm hesitant to stick lots of them in a line array, which I hear can provide amazing results, if similar results can be had with just one single point source driver and perhaps a few woofers, from a aesthetic and financial point of view.
I will get a better test cabinet rigged up soon, and with the DSP can do side by side comparisons and run some mic test to see where EQ might be needed.
Mine is Mac Mini - MiniDSP 2x8 - Rotel 8channel. I had the BMR's running above some pro Beyma 10" woofers, below 200Hz. The BMR's sounded really nice.
We later switched to using the mac mini and the Gainclone Amp/Dac and tried out my bookshelf Mark Audio A7.3, Pensil Mark Audio A10.3's and later the BMR's running full range.
The 7.3' took it for shear hi-end, breath and airiness.
The 10.3's lacked a little sparkle at the top end, but would hit the low notes and definately filled the room better.
The BMR's sounded good, really good, but something I felt was missing.
In the latter test these were run full range, and played quite loud, with which I feel they struggled a bit. Most have said they do need to be crossed to a woofer below 200Hz and I wonder if this would let up a bit for the top end.
These were in small 2.5L sealed test enclosures, with minimal dampening. They seem to provide incredible loud and clear sound, with almost no visible movement of the 'cone'. They seemed to have great macro dynamics and all the little bits in between songs really came out. But rather flat compared to the Alpairs, specifically the A7.3's.
I think I need to re-jig my MiniDsp setup and perhaps get better amps, as these differences were only audio on my friends system. This would allow better integration with the woofer, and perhaps provide some EQ where needed.
I think they are promising, but need some work on the front end, and with some cabinet optimisation to get the very best from them.
I'm hesitant to stick lots of them in a line array, which I hear can provide amazing results, if similar results can be had with just one single point source driver and perhaps a few woofers, from a aesthetic and financial point of view.
I will get a better test cabinet rigged up soon, and with the DSP can do side by side comparisons and run some mic test to see where EQ might be needed.
BMR options
Hi Louis,
Interesting post, I think most folks would agree with what you are hearing given the test conditions and equipment used.
These BMR's can sound good in budget systems in singles but really need to be crossed over at 200Hz, not full range in singles.
They also need a good cabinet and the correct internal damping, this is very important.
Eq is mandatory for music in singles or arrays.
Not essential for home cinema but still helps here too.
Keep experimenting...Seek and yee shall find!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Louis,
Interesting post, I think most folks would agree with what you are hearing given the test conditions and equipment used.
These BMR's can sound good in budget systems in singles but really need to be crossed over at 200Hz, not full range in singles.
They also need a good cabinet and the correct internal damping, this is very important.
Eq is mandatory for music in singles or arrays.
Not essential for home cinema but still helps here too.
Keep experimenting...Seek and yee shall find!
Cheers
Derek.
I read those BMRs really sound good, and Derek built a pair of arrays with them and seem to be really happy with them.
If I may, add a suggestion... Have a look at the VIFAs TC9FD, at $10 a piece, the value-sound quality ratio is pretty high, and are the choice of many when considering arrays.
If I may, add a suggestion... Have a look at the VIFAs TC9FD, at $10 a piece, the value-sound quality ratio is pretty high, and are the choice of many when considering arrays.
Here's a couple of threads that involved a few VIFAs 
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...column-my-line-array-build-20-fr-drivers.html
And the original that started it all...
Advantages* of the* IDS Technology
As mentioned repeatedly in all the threads about arrays, you will need EQ.
But for HT or concert style music with a huge soundstage, arrays are amazing!
And now, back to the original programming... BMRs... sorry for the hijack!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...column-my-line-array-build-20-fr-drivers.html
And the original that started it all...
Advantages* of the* IDS Technology
As mentioned repeatedly in all the threads about arrays, you will need EQ.
But for HT or concert style music with a huge soundstage, arrays are amazing!
And now, back to the original programming... BMRs... sorry for the hijack!
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Here's a couple of threads that involved a few VIFAs
As mentioned repeatedly in all the threads about arrays, you will need EQ.
But for HT or concert style music with a huge soundstage, arrays are amazing!
And now, back to the original programming... BMRs... sorry for the hijack!
I want to avoid using wideband conventional cones due to the narrow beaming of higher frequencies.
I assume eq is to lift the bottom end ?
I will only be using my speakers down to 300hz where they cross over to my woofers.
Cross over & room correction will be handled by my Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 integrated amp.
Thanks Russ,
I was eyeing up the 4.5"s with the neo magnets but It might be worth having a little play if they are cheap enough
Looks like a sweet little amp. The RoomPerfect function should take care of the EQ. Bottom and high end. There's some cancellations on the higher frequencies, but the room has a lot to say in this as well.
Beaming will also depend on how many drivers you will have, speaker placement, sitting position and room reflections.
I have 16-driver arrays, and it's perfect for my listening position, but 20 or 25-driver arrays would be better for walking around the listening position.
I have wanted a Lyngdorf with RoomPerfect for years but the previous model was out of my price range.
I'm loving the TDA2170 though & I think it will be really nice to use a driver/drivers to play midrange on up without passive crossovers & the mix of a woofer/tweeter combo.
Sounds like you have a super pair of speakers, any pictures I can have a look at them ?
Did you see the measurements of the TEBM65C20F-8 BMR in this thread?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/262391-tebm65c20f-8-bmr-driver-3.html#post4084327
The Vifa TC9FD won't be far behind those results if any. I haven't seen any convincing off axis measurements of any of the BMR's yet, aside from promotional talk and figures. Except maybe the Naim pdf on the first page, if we can trust those (too quick, the second graph in the pdf is the BMR, still nothing spectacular).
If you want to see Vifa off axis measurements I believe there are some made by X in his Nautaloss thread.
Hope to see better results from Derek's BMR developments.
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Sd, power response, sensitivity & power handling
Hi Percival,
On wall line arrays with full range / high bandwidth drivers are fab and even budget drivers can sound surprisingly good!
Regardless of which driver you use the systems performance will always be governed by the balancing act of the following variables:
Sd, power response, sensitivity & power handling.
The smaller the driver Sd, the better the off axis response ( better power response) ....The smaller the driver Sd the lower the sensitivity and power handling....Bigger Sd gives better bass...But poor top end...
As a general guide crossover distortions are less audible at lower frequencies so its better to use smaller drivers with better mid and top performance and crossover to bass drivers at 150Hz or lower, 60Hz to 80Hz is ideal.
The 4.5 inch Neo magnet BMR is quite simply the ideal balance of the 4 key parameters for line arrays.
Its off axis response is remarkably even and with an Sd of 70cm2 an array of 8drivers has the same Sd as a good 12 inch driver...
But the Mms to Bl ratio of a super fast midrange driver (think top of the range PHL midrange driver)...
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Percival,
On wall line arrays with full range / high bandwidth drivers are fab and even budget drivers can sound surprisingly good!
Regardless of which driver you use the systems performance will always be governed by the balancing act of the following variables:
Sd, power response, sensitivity & power handling.
The smaller the driver Sd, the better the off axis response ( better power response) ....The smaller the driver Sd the lower the sensitivity and power handling....Bigger Sd gives better bass...But poor top end...
As a general guide crossover distortions are less audible at lower frequencies so its better to use smaller drivers with better mid and top performance and crossover to bass drivers at 150Hz or lower, 60Hz to 80Hz is ideal.
The 4.5 inch Neo magnet BMR is quite simply the ideal balance of the 4 key parameters for line arrays.
Its off axis response is remarkably even and with an Sd of 70cm2 an array of 8drivers has the same Sd as a good 12 inch driver...
But the Mms to Bl ratio of a super fast midrange driver (think top of the range PHL midrange driver)...
Cheers
Derek.