That is very kind of you
it's a temporary arrangement at the moment as I'm moving home soon so I just painted everything same as wall colour I had about 3 hours with them running last night & they sound way better than I was expecting,(due to my lashed up cabinets etc)
I need some more time with them to try different crossover points to woofers etc before I give more feedback but so far I'm very happy with them.
Ball park crossover 80Hz to 180Hz with active 24dB slopes
Hi Jason,
Well done mate!
If you can send me the TS spec on your subs I can help with some crossover suggestions.
Are they 12 inch sealed subs? If so the Mms divided by Bl is a key stat.
A good 12 inch Pro sub will have a ratio around 4, although this can vary a lot ie anything from 2 to 6 is possible.
The lower the figure the higher you can crossover.
A sweet spot for 12 inch drivers is around 4 to 4.7, ie approx 80g Mms with a BL of Approx 17 to 20.
An easy way to ensure the system is correctly set up is to use a Yamaha AV receiver with the YAPO crossover and room Eq feature. Use the natural setting not the flat setting.
Once you have noted all the Eq points, take the receiver out of the system and implement the Eq using JRiver instead of the receiver. This allows you to run a " purist" system with the benefit of the superb Yamaha DSP.
All the best
Derek.
Hi Jason,
Well done mate!
If you can send me the TS spec on your subs I can help with some crossover suggestions.
Are they 12 inch sealed subs? If so the Mms divided by Bl is a key stat.
A good 12 inch Pro sub will have a ratio around 4, although this can vary a lot ie anything from 2 to 6 is possible.
The lower the figure the higher you can crossover.
A sweet spot for 12 inch drivers is around 4 to 4.7, ie approx 80g Mms with a BL of Approx 17 to 20.
An easy way to ensure the system is correctly set up is to use a Yamaha AV receiver with the YAPO crossover and room Eq feature. Use the natural setting not the flat setting.
Once you have noted all the Eq points, take the receiver out of the system and implement the Eq using JRiver instead of the receiver. This allows you to run a " purist" system with the benefit of the superb Yamaha DSP.
All the best
Derek.
Wow,thanks Derek,
The woofers are Peerless XLS-10, four drivers in each cabinet,sealed,I'll look up the TS parameters tonight.
On my amp I can choose from Lintwitz Riley or Butterwort,1st, 2nd or 4th order slopes,high pass & low pass are independent,with my previous speakers I settled on 2nd order high pass & 4th order low pass.
I'm using the Room Perfect system on my Lyndorf amp for EQ.
Cheers Derek
Jason
Sub integration with BMR's
Hi Jason,
Good news and bad news….The good news is choosing crossover will be easy. The bad news is the peerless subs are not an ideal match for your BMR’s!
The key stat is the Mms over Bl ratio.
The heavy cone and thick rubber surround of the Peerless driver add up to a very high Mms for a small 10 inch driver.
The Mms 136.6g divided by the Bl of 16.75 = 8.1……A poor match for the BMR Mms 8.11 over Bl 4.91 = 1.65.
You can minimise the transient slurring by loading the subs in a sealed box configuration aiming for a Q of 0.707.
A quick sim suggests approx. 7.8 Litres of air plus the air volume displaced by the driver (3.5 litres?) plus the air volume displaced by cabinet wall dampening material (say 3 litres) so a total box volume of approx. 14.3 litres per driver.
As you have 4 drivers per box you will need around 57.2 liters of air per sub cabinet.....Is this close to volume you have at the moment?
This assumes 4 separate sealed chambers within each sub woofer cabinet....This is optimum acoustically and structurally.
To avoid the low midrange turning “muddy” and I would advise not to crossover any higher than 80Hz to 100Hz. This will in turn limit the max SPL of the system to approx. 88dB to 91dB continuous with approx. 93dB to 95dB peaks. This is still quite loud and most folks are happy with this level of SPL.
Once its all set up and you have lived with it for a while I can arrange to pop down with a pair of my new subs which are designed specifically for BMR integration and can happily crossover at 200Hz in a set up like yours where the subs are relatively close to the BMR’s.
Not only will the quality of the bass be massively improved but the system headroom will increase by over 12dB to 103dB continuous SPL with 109dB peaks. This is a huge increase in perceived dynamics and contributes a great deal to the realism of the sound.
My subs use 12 inch or 15 inch Pro drivers with a Mms / Bl ratio of 59g over 17Bl = 3.4 and 121g over 22.8Bl = 5.3 respectively.
Combined with a 4 BMR array the system is flat to 28Hz with max continuous SPL’s of 103dBwith peaks of 109Db….Totally phase and time coherent and very dynamic!!
Subs and WAF....
My new 12 inch sub achieves flat to 30Hz with continuous SPL of 103dB, & a perfect Q of 0.707 in under 28 litres of air!
The 15 inch version is flat to 25Hz with continuous SPL's of 105dB, 111dB and 115dB at 30Hz, 40Hz, and 50Hz respectively. All 0.707 Q and under 60 liters total volume....
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Jason,
Good news and bad news….The good news is choosing crossover will be easy. The bad news is the peerless subs are not an ideal match for your BMR’s!
The key stat is the Mms over Bl ratio.
The heavy cone and thick rubber surround of the Peerless driver add up to a very high Mms for a small 10 inch driver.
The Mms 136.6g divided by the Bl of 16.75 = 8.1……A poor match for the BMR Mms 8.11 over Bl 4.91 = 1.65.
You can minimise the transient slurring by loading the subs in a sealed box configuration aiming for a Q of 0.707.
A quick sim suggests approx. 7.8 Litres of air plus the air volume displaced by the driver (3.5 litres?) plus the air volume displaced by cabinet wall dampening material (say 3 litres) so a total box volume of approx. 14.3 litres per driver.
As you have 4 drivers per box you will need around 57.2 liters of air per sub cabinet.....Is this close to volume you have at the moment?
This assumes 4 separate sealed chambers within each sub woofer cabinet....This is optimum acoustically and structurally.
To avoid the low midrange turning “muddy” and I would advise not to crossover any higher than 80Hz to 100Hz. This will in turn limit the max SPL of the system to approx. 88dB to 91dB continuous with approx. 93dB to 95dB peaks. This is still quite loud and most folks are happy with this level of SPL.
Once its all set up and you have lived with it for a while I can arrange to pop down with a pair of my new subs which are designed specifically for BMR integration and can happily crossover at 200Hz in a set up like yours where the subs are relatively close to the BMR’s.
Not only will the quality of the bass be massively improved but the system headroom will increase by over 12dB to 103dB continuous SPL with 109dB peaks. This is a huge increase in perceived dynamics and contributes a great deal to the realism of the sound.
My subs use 12 inch or 15 inch Pro drivers with a Mms / Bl ratio of 59g over 17Bl = 3.4 and 121g over 22.8Bl = 5.3 respectively.
Combined with a 4 BMR array the system is flat to 28Hz with max continuous SPL’s of 103dBwith peaks of 109Db….Totally phase and time coherent and very dynamic!!
Subs and WAF....
My new 12 inch sub achieves flat to 30Hz with continuous SPL of 103dB, & a perfect Q of 0.707 in under 28 litres of air!
The 15 inch version is flat to 25Hz with continuous SPL's of 105dB, 111dB and 115dB at 30Hz, 40Hz, and 50Hz respectively. All 0.707 Q and under 60 liters total volume....
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Derek,
Your prediction of my peerless woofers not being a match for the BMR's is spot on,they do indeed now sound blurred & bloated.
They sounded great before when I used them with my Lyngdorf DP-1 speakers,sounding nice & tight & punchy even with the 300hz crossover I was using.
I have lowered the crossover to the BMR's to 120hz & it's better but absolutely no way I'll be keeping them.
I'd love to hear the woofers you have designed to match the BMR's mate !
I'm also struggling to find a suitable gasket material to seal the BMRs to their baffle,I tried 2mm self adhesive foam sheets but it's too firm & the frames start to deform as they are screwed down,any suggestions ?
Your prediction of my peerless woofers not being a match for the BMR's is spot on,they do indeed now sound blurred & bloated.
They sounded great before when I used them with my Lyngdorf DP-1 speakers,sounding nice & tight & punchy even with the 300hz crossover I was using.
I have lowered the crossover to the BMR's to 120hz & it's better but absolutely no way I'll be keeping them.
I'd love to hear the woofers you have designed to match the BMR's mate !
I'm also struggling to find a suitable gasket material to seal the BMRs to their baffle,I tried 2mm self adhesive foam sheets but it's too firm & the frames start to deform as they are screwed down,any suggestions ?
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Subs and gaskets
Hi Jason,
Happy to let you hear the subs, PM me and we can arrange a time in the next couple of weeks.
Re gaskets: I use a superb product made by Jiffy.
Its a 2mm thick self adhesive material called Envoy Multi and its great for cabinet wall lining as well as cutting out custom gaskets.
You can find it on Ebay and Amazon cheaper the £40.00 per roll that B&Q sell it for.
All the best
Derek.
Hi Jason,
Happy to let you hear the subs, PM me and we can arrange a time in the next couple of weeks.
Re gaskets: I use a superb product made by Jiffy.
Its a 2mm thick self adhesive material called Envoy Multi and its great for cabinet wall lining as well as cutting out custom gaskets.
You can find it on Ebay and Amazon cheaper the £40.00 per roll that B&Q sell it for.
All the best
Derek.
subs
Hi Gazza & Jerryo
I will be making high quality DIY kits available later this year, I have not yet finalised the exact spec and models which will be available to the DIY market as the technology is being used in commercial products and I must ensure the exclusivity of the commercial products.
Both the BMR's and the subs are designed to work with Eq and through our joint venture with Manchester University we have developed a specialised solution which will be available in different forms, some commercial some DIY.
This DSP/ Eq/ crossover is key to maximising the systems performance and its essential that it is used correctly, this avoids raw drivers being misused in low grade systems.
I will not be selling raw drivers, the drivers will only be available as part of comprehensive kits. The subs require very high performance power amplifiers, these will also form part of the kits.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Gazza & Jerryo
I will be making high quality DIY kits available later this year, I have not yet finalised the exact spec and models which will be available to the DIY market as the technology is being used in commercial products and I must ensure the exclusivity of the commercial products.
Both the BMR's and the subs are designed to work with Eq and through our joint venture with Manchester University we have developed a specialised solution which will be available in different forms, some commercial some DIY.
This DSP/ Eq/ crossover is key to maximising the systems performance and its essential that it is used correctly, this avoids raw drivers being misused in low grade systems.
I will not be selling raw drivers, the drivers will only be available as part of comprehensive kits. The subs require very high performance power amplifiers, these will also form part of the kits.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Derek, have you tried using FIR filters like DRC-FIR, Audiolense or Acourate with your setup? If you haven't tried it I'd recommend spending a couple of hours playing with the free DRC: Digital Room Correction | SourceForge.net
I won't look back at using parametric EQ alone for my arrays...
I won't look back at using parametric EQ alone for my arrays...
Quote: The key stat is the Mms over Bl ratio.
The heavy cone and thick rubber surround of the Peerless driver add up to a very high Mms for a small 10 inch driver.
The Mms 136.6g divided by the Bl of 16.75 = 8.1……A poor match for the BMR Mms 8.11 over Bl 4.91 = 1.65.
You can minimise the transient slurring by loading the subs in a sealed box configuration aiming for a Q of 0.707.
Hi Derek, Do you have any -objective- source for these rules of thumb related to Mms vs BL other than personal experience?
regards,Eelco
The heavy cone and thick rubber surround of the Peerless driver add up to a very high Mms for a small 10 inch driver.
The Mms 136.6g divided by the Bl of 16.75 = 8.1……A poor match for the BMR Mms 8.11 over Bl 4.91 = 1.65.
You can minimise the transient slurring by loading the subs in a sealed box configuration aiming for a Q of 0.707.
Hi Derek, Do you have any -objective- source for these rules of thumb related to Mms vs BL other than personal experience?
regards,Eelco
PC solutions
Thanks Wesayso,
I have always fancied trying the Acourate software but never got round to it....you know how it is!
I agree that standard Eq is not good enough, whatever you use it must allow for phase / time domain correction.
I feel confident that our own DSP solution is going to set new standards.
As part of our joint venture with Manchester University, it builds on the strengths of the Signal Wizard Systems Home and has been designed from the ground up as an ultra-high performance audio solution by Professor of DSP, Patrick Gaydecki.
Our references are all high end solutions and its already coming out a clear winner against my own fully tricked out battery powered DEQX and dedicated SSD based media hub running stripped out windows with studio plugins such as Fab Filter, Blue Cat Audio. Even a battery powered Dolby Lake sounds poor in comparison.
In addition to top grade sound quality, ease of use and practical applications (in Pro audio) dictated a compact stand alone hardware based solution.
Our DSP is designed to fit inside each loudspeaker (or a stand alone electronics pack) and feed our DAC's and power amps to create a fully independent studio monitor..... So there was no point in looking at software solutions that required a motherboard to run them.
Hi Boden,
Sorry but I have no intention of revealing how I calculate the TS parameters of my drivers....Its taken me a life time to develop my ideas, correlate my subjective findings with objective measurements and come up with a repeatable specification that works for all sizes and frequencies.....But kits will be available!
Richieboy,
No, but less than you think!
Cheers
D.
Thanks Wesayso,
I have always fancied trying the Acourate software but never got round to it....you know how it is!
I agree that standard Eq is not good enough, whatever you use it must allow for phase / time domain correction.
I feel confident that our own DSP solution is going to set new standards.
As part of our joint venture with Manchester University, it builds on the strengths of the Signal Wizard Systems Home and has been designed from the ground up as an ultra-high performance audio solution by Professor of DSP, Patrick Gaydecki.
Our references are all high end solutions and its already coming out a clear winner against my own fully tricked out battery powered DEQX and dedicated SSD based media hub running stripped out windows with studio plugins such as Fab Filter, Blue Cat Audio. Even a battery powered Dolby Lake sounds poor in comparison.
In addition to top grade sound quality, ease of use and practical applications (in Pro audio) dictated a compact stand alone hardware based solution.
Our DSP is designed to fit inside each loudspeaker (or a stand alone electronics pack) and feed our DAC's and power amps to create a fully independent studio monitor..... So there was no point in looking at software solutions that required a motherboard to run them.
Hi Boden,
Sorry but I have no intention of revealing how I calculate the TS parameters of my drivers....Its taken me a life time to develop my ideas, correlate my subjective findings with objective measurements and come up with a repeatable specification that works for all sizes and frequencies.....But kits will be available!
Richieboy,
No, but less than you think!
Cheers
D.
I have a couple of hours free tonight so I'm going to have a listen with the BMR's crossed over at 100hz (lowest so far) with a 4th order slope on both high pass & low pass.
With what I've heard so far I'm totally loving the BMR's & I'm very keen to get my bass end sorted out to match,I just can't imagine going back to a speaker with seperate mids/tweets & a passive XO !
With what I've heard so far I'm totally loving the BMR's & I'm very keen to get my bass end sorted out to match,I just can't imagine going back to a speaker with seperate mids/tweets & a passive XO !
Hi Jason,
Glad to hear your good news....If you like em now just wait till you get the low midrange and bass really sorted....!
As long as the BMR's are not moving more than plus / minus 1mm you will be ok. The real magic happens when you crossover at 200Hz to a killer bass set up....Till you hear it you wont believe it!
Cheers
D.
Glad to hear your good news....If you like em now just wait till you get the low midrange and bass really sorted....!
As long as the BMR's are not moving more than plus / minus 1mm you will be ok. The real magic happens when you crossover at 200Hz to a killer bass set up....Till you hear it you wont believe it!
Cheers
D.