Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Hey Gareth. Have you found time to go and listen to a Naim yet? I recommend it. Some stores let you bring your own DIY amp along for a comparison, when they aren't very busy.
BTW have you built the "Honey Badger" that was mentioned earlier? It's design is like an anti-Naim in a way. Seemingly focused on THD.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Hi Brian,
Nope, nothing going on at my side for ages. This single parent malarky has slowed me right down to almost nil. But the fire hasn't gone out, and I will have my amps up and running again some time. As for NAIM, I don't know if any of their modern amps are going to have the 'sound' that I was after with my clone. But I do like the suggestion of dragging my amps down to the local store at a quiet time. I need to get my amps into a suitable state first.
The Honey Badger is not on my list and never will be. The designer is somebody I was 'friends' with on the forum for awhile and whom I have huge respect for but the amp is a by-the-book kind of amp and I'm just not a by-the-book kind of amp designer. My TGM8 has very low THD too and it would be interesting to compare them if I ever get to one of the group DIY events.
Nope, nothing going on at my side for ages. This single parent malarky has slowed me right down to almost nil. But the fire hasn't gone out, and I will have my amps up and running again some time. As for NAIM, I don't know if any of their modern amps are going to have the 'sound' that I was after with my clone. But I do like the suggestion of dragging my amps down to the local store at a quiet time. I need to get my amps into a suitable state first.
The Honey Badger is not on my list and never will be. The designer is somebody I was 'friends' with on the forum for awhile and whom I have huge respect for but the amp is a by-the-book kind of amp and I'm just not a by-the-book kind of amp designer. My TGM8 has very low THD too and it would be interesting to compare them if I ever get to one of the group DIY events.
The main ingredient of the old Naim is the top notch dynamics (which is imo the most important ingredient for musicality). They use transistors with top notch current capability (including the FZT). But those all transistors are far from linear. The price it has to pay is the high distortion which is in the audible range.
Those with acute hearing will hear this distortion and wont probably tolerate it. Very musical but disturbing.
The newer Naim suits me better. The distortion is lower due to the choice of newer transistors. Musicality is probably 'less' than the old one but is still 'premium'.
My clone was based on very high current TO-3 output (I think 50A or something) but is extremely linear (vintage stuff). Then to solve for the VAS transistor I used paralleled small transistors (only on the top, I think NPN). Those are the main ingredients of the Naim. With different transistors, the circuit calls for modification, and this is where the other Naim ingredients should be applied
You may be looking through the wrong end of the telescope there.
If you change the VAS transistors to obtain better linearity, lower capacitance etc. you won't be getting Naim sound, period. Naim is about musicality for sure, but that seldom has much to do with with SOTA audio design rules. These early designs are unique products that have only in recently times changed to embrace modern SMT manufacture and evolution through to modern types of AV products.
The original NAP design was arrived at by tweaks - tinkering with a standard type of Quasi-complementary design of the 1970s period and modifying it and the components selections by ear. You may realise that the VAS transistor types never changed over many years for a very specific reason - they generate much of the distinctive sound quality that the high Cob transistors lend to the music. That's the Pace, Rhythm Timing thing attributed to Naim's sound. Look at Nait models too, quite similar actually and consider the output transistors - industrial TO220 switching types in early models.
The topic of Naim design improvements and modernisation comes up repeatedly so please realise that as Bigun said of the Honey Badger design, this isn't a by-the-book design and fans of the sound quality won't be trying too hard to change it. The problem here is that few people understand how it works and even fewer know why we enjoy the overall distortion spectrum the various models share.
My tip is to get to listen to the real thing with good speakers and compare that with a standard Japanese or local product of about the same power rating. Change your music from bold and brassy to calm and relaxing and between, think about it and see if you get the "foot-tapping" urge to engage with rhythmic music. That's one desirable effect you should get from the real thing. Read back in this thread and find more comments on sound quality here.
IMV, the design and how it seems by superficial comparison with modern textbook designs is unimportant. This a product for entertainment - it's the sound that matters
If you change the VAS transistors to obtain better linearity, lower capacitance etc. you won't be getting Naim sound, period. Naim is about musicality for sure, but that seldom has much to do with with SOTA audio design rules. These early designs are unique products that have only in recently times changed to embrace modern SMT manufacture and evolution through to modern types of AV products.
The original NAP design was arrived at by tweaks - tinkering with a standard type of Quasi-complementary design of the 1970s period and modifying it and the components selections by ear. You may realise that the VAS transistor types never changed over many years for a very specific reason - they generate much of the distinctive sound quality that the high Cob transistors lend to the music. That's the Pace, Rhythm Timing thing attributed to Naim's sound. Look at Nait models too, quite similar actually and consider the output transistors - industrial TO220 switching types in early models.
The topic of Naim design improvements and modernisation comes up repeatedly so please realise that as Bigun said of the Honey Badger design, this isn't a by-the-book design and fans of the sound quality won't be trying too hard to change it. The problem here is that few people understand how it works and even fewer know why we enjoy the overall distortion spectrum the various models share.
My tip is to get to listen to the real thing with good speakers and compare that with a standard Japanese or local product of about the same power rating. Change your music from bold and brassy to calm and relaxing and between, think about it and see if you get the "foot-tapping" urge to engage with rhythmic music. That's one desirable effect you should get from the real thing. Read back in this thread and find more comments on sound quality here.
IMV, the design and how it seems by superficial comparison with modern textbook designs is unimportant. This a product for entertainment - it's the sound that matters
Last edited:
To me there is no 'Naim sound'. Who said I want a Naim sound? I like Naim sound and I know how to achieve what I like with sound.
But studying the Naim design I was impressed. I don't know how many people are designing amps like that. After JV, I don't know whether the knowledge was inherited to others in the company or family or not. Or, like you said, was it just a product of random tweaking by ears?
IMV, there is no reason to show interest in the clone other than to check out Naim sound. There definitely is a unique Naim sound but sure, it's not to everyone's taste - nothing is. So tell us, what impressed you about the design?
In fact, the basic design is typical of many quasi-complementary amplifiers of the 1970's . JV was dissatisfied by the sound quality of these and set about modifying one himself. Potential clients loved the sound quality he achieved and he went on to form the company and continued refining the design of the amplification products, developing the unique and quirky interconnection and power supply systems for the various preamplifiers, for example. JV was not an engineer or electronics expert, more a talented and astute enthusiast who already had a little commercial success with making stage lighting and sound recording products.
Unfortunately, the typical clone build I hear (and I have heard quite a lot of them by other guys) sounds unrecognizable by comparison to the real thing. Hearing the real product is important because you then have a reference - a genuine audio learning experience rather than uncertainties and imagination that many of us have to rely on.
In fact, the basic design is typical of many quasi-complementary amplifiers of the 1970's . JV was dissatisfied by the sound quality of these and set about modifying one himself. Potential clients loved the sound quality he achieved and he went on to form the company and continued refining the design of the amplification products, developing the unique and quirky interconnection and power supply systems for the various preamplifiers, for example. JV was not an engineer or electronics expert, more a talented and astute enthusiast who already had a little commercial success with making stage lighting and sound recording products.
Unfortunately, the typical clone build I hear (and I have heard quite a lot of them by other guys) sounds unrecognizable by comparison to the real thing. Hearing the real product is important because you then have a reference - a genuine audio learning experience rather than uncertainties and imagination that many of us have to rely on.
Last edited:
I met Julian a few times. This was a long time ago when I really didn't know what I was doing and so some of the advice he gave me didn't register. It does now.
Prior to getting involved in electronics, he raced Austin Minis professionally and made a lot of money by winning races. I imagine he got heavily involved in car mechanics too. Later, while running Naim Audio he designed some sort of leading edge racing yacht.
My impression of him is that he had outstanding acuity, judgment and motivation. No ordinary guy at all. I suppose he had the advantage of no formal engineering education in that he had to learn from scratch and questioned the basics and wouldn't just accept things but went and measured them. He loved music and enjoyed live music and so was vexed by how bad some existing equipment was. He decided to do something about it.
The thing I like about the NAP is that if you judge it by the "textbooks" it looks amateurish and clunky and like it shouldn't sound very good. But if you know what he was trying to achieve then it looks fiendishly clever. Of course, it has been one of the world's best audio amps since the 1970s and continues to be. It may even be the most musical, non-tube, amplifier ever; but I haven't heard enough amplifiers to judge that.
I think The Statement will show whether Naim, post-JV, has lost the recipe or not. I haven't heard one but they completely changed the topology and dispensed with some of JV's "musts". Naim is now owned by some investment company that also owns a French audio company. It's probably run by professional managers now.
Prior to getting involved in electronics, he raced Austin Minis professionally and made a lot of money by winning races. I imagine he got heavily involved in car mechanics too. Later, while running Naim Audio he designed some sort of leading edge racing yacht.
My impression of him is that he had outstanding acuity, judgment and motivation. No ordinary guy at all. I suppose he had the advantage of no formal engineering education in that he had to learn from scratch and questioned the basics and wouldn't just accept things but went and measured them. He loved music and enjoyed live music and so was vexed by how bad some existing equipment was. He decided to do something about it.
The thing I like about the NAP is that if you judge it by the "textbooks" it looks amateurish and clunky and like it shouldn't sound very good. But if you know what he was trying to achieve then it looks fiendishly clever. Of course, it has been one of the world's best audio amps since the 1970s and continues to be. It may even be the most musical, non-tube, amplifier ever; but I haven't heard enough amplifiers to judge that.
I think The Statement will show whether Naim, post-JV, has lost the recipe or not. I haven't heard one but they completely changed the topology and dispensed with some of JV's "musts". Naim is now owned by some investment company that also owns a French audio company. It's probably run by professional managers now.
Last edited:
Indeed. The secret sauce is not entirely revealed by the schematics. After all, on the face of it the NAP circuit is a slightly altered 1970's RCA application note circuit.
When JV was in charge, he was happy to invite budding amateurs in to the Salisbury factory from time to time to demonstrate their creations and have them evaluated. How good was that? I doubt it is on offer nowadays (not in the mission statement
).
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I'm not so sure we can live in the 70's any longer, if Naim relies on us old guys they'll sink - in their hey day it was not the old farts that bought their products and today they need to move on - hence their foray into some sexy looking modern stuff where people value looks, ease-of-use, brand recognition, connectivity etc.
If the statement is the one to refer to, i think they have lost the recipe. To be sure i need to see the schematic. An AC analysis on the circuit will reveal whether the receipt is still there or not.
In Naim sound I found several things. First is the sonic, dynamic and musicality. AKSA clearly understand this (and the harmonic structure of course). This can be achieved with the choice of the transistors.
Next there is the sound of 'correctness', this is something that i have always applied in my amps, whatever the topology, exactly like what is achieved by the tail resistor and the strange RC filters on the bases of Naim transistors.
Next there is the 'house sound' of Naim which i don't like. I will never use tantalum caps (but i agree on the styro)
I cant tell, but it is not something that other people do, i think. The clue is to approach amp design like one would approach speaker design.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
you should come to Canada, we're legalizing the stuff that'll help you further your research along these lines....
me and yet, I bought my first kit "nap140" 8 or 10 years ago, I assembled it with the components provided, I listened for 2 or 3 hours and I dismounted
then stored on a shelf.
Then, two or three years ago, I came across this thread and the first thing I did was replace the chemicals with tantalum and then I realized that something was happening.
I looked for the components for a year or two and then put it together as it was done at naim and I compared it to a real nap 140 and a nait 3 to see where I was with my clone. my naim clone is not a naim of origin but it is really very very close, and certainly closer than true naim repaired with the bad components
all that to say that I too hated and replaced the tantalum at every amp repair, now I do not do it systematically
