Hi,
Of course it does. It also goes against any thing Jung and March have to say about capacitors and so on.
Original Naim does not use these transistors, they are substitution from the originals, often thought better. The circuit you refer to is not actually Naim, it is a Naim clone, substituting all transistors for different ones.
I may have the original Naim schematics still around, if you want them
Back when I repaired high end and pro audio gear for a 2nd hand chain shop in London to put myself through university for my 2nd degree I came across tons of these Japanese Super Amp's. A few Naim's also came my way.
We had a silver front Technics Class AA Amp in the shop as our normal Amp with a pair of JBL 4401 monitors. This stuff was blasting good tunes all day long, usually at quite cute levels. One day a Naim Nait (shoebox one) cam in and while a little lacking in refinement etc., this toy looking Amp sure could boogey. Neutral? Not exactly. Three dimensional? Not that I say so. Fun? Sure...
I was not heartbroken when we went back to the Technics though.
Later I heard a setup, full Linn/Naim, Linn Isobarik Speakers, Stacks of Naim 135 Mono's, Naim Active Crossover and Preamp, Linn LP12 and early Naim CD-Player. Again, the system could ogey and was quite fun to listen to. Would I trade my stuff for it? No, but I can see how some will like what such a system does well...
Ciao T
Of course it does. It also goes against any thing Jung and March have to say about capacitors and so on.
Original Naim does not use these transistors, they are substitution from the originals, often thought better. The circuit you refer to is not actually Naim, it is a Naim clone, substituting all transistors for different ones.
I may have the original Naim schematics still around, if you want them
Back when I repaired high end and pro audio gear for a 2nd hand chain shop in London to put myself through university for my 2nd degree I came across tons of these Japanese Super Amp's. A few Naim's also came my way.
We had a silver front Technics Class AA Amp in the shop as our normal Amp with a pair of JBL 4401 monitors. This stuff was blasting good tunes all day long, usually at quite cute levels. One day a Naim Nait (shoebox one) cam in and while a little lacking in refinement etc., this toy looking Amp sure could boogey. Neutral? Not exactly. Three dimensional? Not that I say so. Fun? Sure...
I was not heartbroken when we went back to the Technics though.
Later I heard a setup, full Linn/Naim, Linn Isobarik Speakers, Stacks of Naim 135 Mono's, Naim Active Crossover and Preamp, Linn LP12 and early Naim CD-Player. Again, the system could ogey and was quite fun to listen to. Would I trade my stuff for it? No, but I can see how some will like what such a system does well...
Ciao T
After all this : I suppose this falls into the "design by ear" category. Settle on a base design , find it's far flung stability limits ..... A/B changes in cdom , degeneration , NFB lead , and component choice. Maybe , to be safe.. crunch the numbers again and subject to other tests to make sure of no magic smoke.
One might luck out and find just the right combo of device/comp./ layout....
Other amps (original AKSA , first DX) obtain similar results but have much more predictable attributes and are also revered for their "magical sound".
(MUCH more tolerant of device changes - as well.)
PS- I am also guilty of "quasi objective design" .... it serves me well.
OS
One might luck out and find just the right combo of device/comp./ layout....
Other amps (original AKSA , first DX) obtain similar results but have much more predictable attributes and are also revered for their "magical sound".
(MUCH more tolerant of device changes - as well.)
PS- I am also guilty of "quasi objective design" .... it serves me well.
OS
Hi,
Yes. This actually describes the process Julian Vereker engaged in in the late 70's when these design originated. Naim kind of has been mostly stuck in the 70's with their electronic design, prior to Julian's maybe too early death at 55. The kind of design and parts where never questioned, it is part of the Naim Creed.
Even in the decade following Julian's death Naims designs have not changed much...
Ciao T
Yes. This actually describes the process Julian Vereker engaged in in the late 70's when these design originated. Naim kind of has been mostly stuck in the 70's with their electronic design, prior to Julian's maybe too early death at 55. The kind of design and parts where never questioned, it is part of the Naim Creed.
Even in the decade following Julian's death Naims designs have not changed much...
Ciao T
The amp did not blow up if you used Monster cable instead of Naim cable. It became a real problem if you used cable with capacitance was too high, though. An inherent limitation of the quasi-complementary topology, made worse by the lack of that inductor.
I think that it is fairly clear where the Naim design was weak (stability, highish distortion masking detail etc)
What do you think was the characteristics that caused the Naim strengths - mainly the rhythm? I suspect the bandwidth limiting, the distortion was not really bad enough to be euphonic.
What do you think was the characteristics that caused the Naim strengths - mainly the rhythm? I suspect the bandwidth limiting, the distortion was not really bad enough to be euphonic.
Hi,
I think the powersupplies. Try a gainclone with regulated powersupplies (e.g. Pedja Rogics ones) and a big mains transformer, it has a fair dash of that Naim flavour, while sounding much modern elsewhere...
Ciao T
I think the powersupplies. Try a gainclone with regulated powersupplies (e.g. Pedja Rogics ones) and a big mains transformer, it has a fair dash of that Naim flavour, while sounding much modern elsewhere...
Ciao T
My guess would be the generously sized power supply - mainly the transformer.
Hi,
Newer models are very similar, in general tech.
The latest top of the range Preamp uses Split rails and uses hence DC coupling on the input IIRC (but not output).
The latest top of the range Amp use much higher power output transistors and two Amp's bridged. I suspect some other transistors have seen upgrades as well. Tantalum caps etc. are still in evidence.
Also, Naim power amp's MUST be used with Naim Preamp's or crossovers. They are designed together as a system and show a very steep ultrasonic rolloff as a system.
It is. The issue is that later on, this particular sound was turned into a cult, preventing upgrades and changes. No Naim must forever sound like Naim or risk loosing customers.
Personally, I think a Gainclone with a regulated supply and good passives will have much of the good of the Naim sound, without the bad parts. But that's just me...
Ciao T
Newer models are very similar, in general tech.
The latest top of the range Preamp uses Split rails and uses hence DC coupling on the input IIRC (but not output).
The latest top of the range Amp use much higher power output transistors and two Amp's bridged. I suspect some other transistors have seen upgrades as well. Tantalum caps etc. are still in evidence.
Also, Naim power amp's MUST be used with Naim Preamp's or crossovers. They are designed together as a system and show a very steep ultrasonic rolloff as a system.
It is. The issue is that later on, this particular sound was turned into a cult, preventing upgrades and changes. No Naim must forever sound like Naim or risk loosing customers.
Personally, I think a Gainclone with a regulated supply and good passives will have much of the good of the Naim sound, without the bad parts. But that's just me...
Ciao T
ok then ... my costumer doesnt feature NAim preamps nor cables .... so bandwidth is an issue to me an as for listening impressions the amp is dead slow, has not enough bandwidth , of course is a pain in the a** to drive ,and finally i find nothing special about the sound of it
My P3A kick his a** from every possible aspect
change the input capacitor, retune the psu limiters , scope the amp for oscillation , made tests in resistive and capacitive loads and that is about the end of story for me ..
this type of NAIM amplifier is no good to my ears
Kind regards sakis
My P3A kick his a** from every possible aspect
change the input capacitor, retune the psu limiters , scope the amp for oscillation , made tests in resistive and capacitive loads and that is about the end of story for me ..
this type of NAIM amplifier is no good to my ears
Kind regards sakis
Hi,
Then best to repair/refurbish the Amp's as close as original, then sell them off to a Naim Fan. Naim gear tends to hold it's value well.
Ciao T
Then best to repair/refurbish the Amp's as close as original, then sell them off to a Naim Fan. Naim gear tends to hold it's value well.
Ciao T
Don't test into capacitance. Naims really fry if you try that. This is the ultimate vendor lock in product range.
what tells the biggest story, is not the mains tx, good as it is, but on the nap 500, they had to bridge it.
why? well, because they had to preserve the sound, changing the output stage would alter the sound, no doubt they tried it, but couldn't get it to sound the same, bridging will allow them to keep the output stages topology, no doubt the quasi complementary configuration.
the fact they did this strongly in my mind points the finger to the output stages topology being totally instrumental in the unique sound quality that naim power amplifiers have, in fact, imo having tested 5 power amps, it was the naim preamp that dominated the sound, the power amp is actually quite refined and "normal" sounding.
put in the preamp, and the naim magic appears, but I wouldn't go so far as to say its 100% responsible for the sound, the sound quality results from the combination of both pre and power amps.
so in my mind, power supply, and components are in no way as important in the final sound quality that appears and I use sound quality not as a good or bad, but coloration, that is the tonal quality that results.
its all in the toplogy and combination of therof, pretty much, sure components as an ingrediant, think of it like cooking, add spice and seasoning, but the main dish is the combination of transistors, operating points, and topology. the rest is minor, I don't think power supplies change it per se, only in the component choices, ie brand of caps and type and winding of power transformer.
my 2 cents from a naim fan.
they also use the output stage and preamp configuration in the tuners and cd players, says a lot how indespensible that topology is to the unique sound.
I don't use my Naim much these days. At present its hooked up to a pair of old Jamo speakers in my study. As a source I use my Blackberry phone in media player mode, plugged directly into the NAP250. Pre-amp? What for? 
No I don't do critical listening - it's only for some occasional tunes while I work. Please don't tell the Naimistas that I'm using it to play MP3s.
No I don't do critical listening - it's only for some occasional tunes while I work. Please don't tell the Naimistas that I'm using it to play MP3s.
Hi,
I don't think so.
To be honest, with more modern NPN Transistors and drivers Naim use anyway it would have been trivial to increase the power supply by a factor of around 1.5 and keep the original circuit without a need for bridging.
But as it so happens, I also think making a BTL Amp is the better choice. The reasons are not uncomplex, but bear considering.
Tell that anyone who own a Hi-Cap.
Actually, the big transformer, relatively small cap creed exemplified by Naim is quite a substantially useful approach... Follow it with a decent reg is another piece of help...
Actually, not sure about the tuners, but the CD-Players and related do NOT this kind of circuit, they are full of Op-Amp's...
Ciao T
I don't think so.
To be honest, with more modern NPN Transistors and drivers Naim use anyway it would have been trivial to increase the power supply by a factor of around 1.5 and keep the original circuit without a need for bridging.
But as it so happens, I also think making a BTL Amp is the better choice. The reasons are not uncomplex, but bear considering.
Tell that anyone who own a Hi-Cap.
Actually, the big transformer, relatively small cap creed exemplified by Naim is quite a substantially useful approach... Follow it with a decent reg is another piece of help...
Actually, not sure about the tuners, but the CD-Players and related do NOT this kind of circuit, they are full of Op-Amp's...
Ciao T
.... i can accept the term
being totally instrumental in the unique sound quality
i can talk about a specific sound and spexific sonic signature or colouration but please let us skip the quality issye has nothing to do here ....
btl configuration ????? hmmmm not me !!!! unless that someone can 1000% sure that amplifiers are identical all the way through ... that will be DC-AC conditions thermals and tollerance .... no way i think .... they might be close but how close i dont know
being totally instrumental in the unique sound quality
i can talk about a specific sound and spexific sonic signature or colouration but please let us skip the quality issye has nothing to do here ....
btl configuration ????? hmmmm not me !!!! unless that someone can 1000% sure that amplifiers are identical all the way through ... that will be DC-AC conditions thermals and tollerance .... no way i think .... they might be close but how close i dont know
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