If I do not have a bias voltage across an electrolytic, my first concern would be to get symmetric leakage current as small as possible. I am sure there are lots of other considerations, and I don't think the NPs I am giving free to FE builders here are the best in the world. It's just that I made the decision to switch, and it really costs almost nothing to me to slip them into an envelope and walk 5 minutes to the post office. So it's really just another option to play around with for the current FE builders if they wish.
Been snooping around:
black gate 220uf | eBay
What are folks using instead of Black Gate NXs?
Dare to compare!
Maybe Siva has a slant on this topic if he is still watching. I'll give him a bump.
black gate 220uf | eBay
What are folks using instead of Black Gate NXs?
Dare to compare!
Maybe Siva has a slant on this topic if he is still watching. I'll give him a bump.
Opps
Soonsc,
My mistake. I was looking at the wrong information. I was looking at some ordinary aluminum poly CapXon caps, not the NP Series. After I dug into the correct info, I agree with you, the NP Series is very interesting. As with all of alternative caps, there is no way to know how they sound without trying them. I would like to join in to your experiment and give them a try. I'll send a PM to you with my address.
I also agree with your interest in asymmetric leakage currents. I'm actually expecting that the Black Gates may be leaking in both directions. It is possible that they may sound better because they are more symmetric.
If I remember correctly, KSTR suggested that C9 might be best as a non-polarized electrolytic. Another interesting attempt might be two 100 uF back to back.
So far, Dario, Bob, and PreSapian have been having all the fun swapping parts. It looks like you and I will soon be having fun playing at the margins with alternative technologies.
Jac
Soonsc,
My mistake. I was looking at the wrong information. I was looking at some ordinary aluminum poly CapXon caps, not the NP Series. After I dug into the correct info, I agree with you, the NP Series is very interesting. As with all of alternative caps, there is no way to know how they sound without trying them. I would like to join in to your experiment and give them a try. I'll send a PM to you with my address.
I also agree with your interest in asymmetric leakage currents. I'm actually expecting that the Black Gates may be leaking in both directions. It is possible that they may sound better because they are more symmetric.
If I remember correctly, KSTR suggested that C9 might be best as a non-polarized electrolytic. Another interesting attempt might be two 100 uF back to back.
So far, Dario, Bob, and PreSapian have been having all the fun swapping parts. It looks like you and I will soon be having fun playing at the margins with alternative technologies.
Jac
Black Gates
Bob,
As you have found, the good Black Gates are nearly gone and very expensive. I tried to get NX, but they were very few left. I felt lucky to get some STD. Since nobody has stepped up to say that there is an equivalent successor, I got interested in alternative technology. We shall see what pops up and works.
Anybody else want to get in on the fun?
Jac
Bob,
As you have found, the good Black Gates are nearly gone and very expensive. I tried to get NX, but they were very few left. I felt lucky to get some STD. Since nobody has stepped up to say that there is an equivalent successor, I got interested in alternative technology. We shall see what pops up and works.
Anybody else want to get in on the fun?
Jac
Here is another comparison reference -
High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors
I'm wondering if this is a polarized axial cap that could be used in a verticle or socket position. Could also open up some interesting possibilities.
ROE ROEDERSTEIN 220uf 40v Axial Capacitors FOR AUDIO ! | eBay
High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors
I'm wondering if this is a polarized axial cap that could be used in a verticle or socket position. Could also open up some interesting possibilities.
ROE ROEDERSTEIN 220uf 40v Axial Capacitors FOR AUDIO ! | eBay
Speaking of NOS alternatives yesterday i was reading some good reviews about these caps philips ll 220uf | eBay
Bob, i think all these cap comparitions are not so useful as our C9 is in the feedback loop not a coupling interstage cap.
Bob, i think all these cap comparitions are not so useful as our C9 is in the feedback loop not a coupling interstage cap.
Last edited:
What about the Roederstein example I kinked to. I was asking a general question about using axial caps in spots like C1, C2 and C9. I don't have a clue about the usefulness, but it would open up a lot of high grade options.
In C9 an axial cap could be used without harm but in C1, C2 the longer leads will reduce their effectiveness for the added inductance...
I have established the folder for "FE Audio Tests" on BoxNet. It turns out there is no simple way to grant protected access without requiring users to create an account.
It is a FREE account but it does add that extra verification step. Guest access may be a possibility but I'm still investigating.
1. "Collaborators" have full edit, upload, download and comment privileges.
2. There is currently a 5 gig limit for total uploads. (Can be increased if needed)
3. Individual file size limit is 100 MB. If your example is larger, please split it.
4. Uncompressed Flac and/or Apple loss-less files are preferred. Wav are also acceptable if you feel the quality is good.
It is suggested contributors edit their selections to only the most significant segments that display the characteristics to be highlighted. If you don't have the software I may be able to trim it for you.
If you are interested in sharing some examples, please PM me, or email to bcmbob@charter.net (new second address) and I will set you up and forward an invitation.
Catigories:
Brazilian-Salsa
Jazz
Pop-Rock
Classical
Vocal
High End Response
Low End Response
Misc
Please take note that this folder is intended for sharing specific audio test examples only - IT IS NOT FOR SHARING OR DISTRIBUTING PROTECTED INTACT MEDIA.
All comments, questions and suggestions are welcomed.
It is a FREE account but it does add that extra verification step. Guest access may be a possibility but I'm still investigating.
1. "Collaborators" have full edit, upload, download and comment privileges.
2. There is currently a 5 gig limit for total uploads. (Can be increased if needed)
3. Individual file size limit is 100 MB. If your example is larger, please split it.
4. Uncompressed Flac and/or Apple loss-less files are preferred. Wav are also acceptable if you feel the quality is good.
It is suggested contributors edit their selections to only the most significant segments that display the characteristics to be highlighted. If you don't have the software I may be able to trim it for you.
If you are interested in sharing some examples, please PM me, or email to bcmbob@charter.net (new second address) and I will set you up and forward an invitation.
Catigories:
Brazilian-Salsa
Jazz
Pop-Rock
Classical
Vocal
High End Response
Low End Response
Misc
Please take note that this folder is intended for sharing specific audio test examples only - IT IS NOT FOR SHARING OR DISTRIBUTING PROTECTED INTACT MEDIA.
All comments, questions and suggestions are welcomed.
Soonsc,
That is one of the funny things about these forum discussions. Sometimes I find myself out of phase with another contributor and also should have been checking for return posts but didn't. In this case, your link was good, but before I found it, I had gone off looking for CapXon information myself. I should have waited and followed your link. I'm sorry.
Jac
C9, R10 Filter
OK, you guys have been around the MyRef amps longer than me. Can anyone explain to me the function of the C9,R10 filter?
My understanding is that R7 and R10 define the loop gain at about 30. C9 and R10 form a high pass filter with a corner frequency of about 2 Hz. This should increase the impedance at very low frequencies with the result of decreasing the loop gain as frequency approaches DC.
Outside of this function, C9 shouldn't have a big effect on sound quality, yet everyone says it is critical.
Has anyone tried increasing R7 and R10 while decreasing C9? Done in proportion, that should keep the gain and the corner frequency. Are there noise problems with a higher R10 value? If C9 gets small enough, then a film cap could be used. Would that be worth the trip? I've seen film caps as high as 110 uF ($$$).
Alternatively, a gain of 30 is quite high. Has anyone tried a lower gain version of a MyRef amp? If this was done by increasing R10, C9 could be made smaller and possible film cap without changing the corner frequency.
Any insight here would be welcome.
As you can see, my mind is a dangerous thing when unoccupied.
Jac
OK, you guys have been around the MyRef amps longer than me. Can anyone explain to me the function of the C9,R10 filter?
My understanding is that R7 and R10 define the loop gain at about 30. C9 and R10 form a high pass filter with a corner frequency of about 2 Hz. This should increase the impedance at very low frequencies with the result of decreasing the loop gain as frequency approaches DC.
Outside of this function, C9 shouldn't have a big effect on sound quality, yet everyone says it is critical.
Has anyone tried increasing R7 and R10 while decreasing C9? Done in proportion, that should keep the gain and the corner frequency. Are there noise problems with a higher R10 value? If C9 gets small enough, then a film cap could be used. Would that be worth the trip? I've seen film caps as high as 110 uF ($$$).
Alternatively, a gain of 30 is quite high. Has anyone tried a lower gain version of a MyRef amp? If this was done by increasing R10, C9 could be made smaller and possible film cap without changing the corner frequency.
Any insight here would be welcome.
As you can see, my mind is a dangerous thing when unoccupied.
Jac
Exactly, it's function is to reduce DC offset, which can be quite high with the LM318.
It also have a tight relationship with C13/R13, according Mauro.
In practice it is in the feedback loop...
BTW there are a lot of good sounding caps to use in this position.
So far the best one is Black Gate NX, with Black Gate FK second.
Among the available ones the best are Elna Cerafine, Elna Silmic ROS (not Silmic II RFS) and Nichicon FG.
All of them have a slight different timbre and presentation: Cerafines similar to Black Gate FK but sometimes can be a bit harsh, Silmics full and delicious but a bit colored, FGs also a bit colored but, IMHO the best all rounder.
What you loose Vs a Black Gate NX? The ultimate detail and the deep black backgroud.
BTW with any of those caps the amp sound gorgeous.
Solid polimer caps are strange beasts, they retain quite all the detail of BGs but most sound harsh and thin.
Nichicon FPCAPs seem interesting though.
I've just briefly tried RR50 and they sound refined and (quite) full detailed but a bit thin.
Tomorrow I'll pass them through the IsoTek and I'll report.
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