Popmarter, the diy formula I've provided is for 2 gallons of solution or about 7.6 liters. If we convert that to a solution for 4.7 liters of tank solution and leave out the Hepastat, the mix formula in milliliters would be:
6 ml Tergitol/Triton (0.13%)
250 ml 95% isopropyl (5.0%)
4,444 ml water
-----------
4,700 total tank solution
This will give you a mix of 0.13% Tergitol/Triton and 5% isopropyl per 4.7 liters of tank solution.
Microscope pictures of ultrasonic cleaning session
As promised, I have cleaned a record and made pictures with my microscope to show the difference.
Here is the what I did. Pictures 1 + 2 + 3 are made from the exact same location, 4 and 5 are bonuspictures.
1. Bought a record, Bob Marley & The Wailers- Live for 3 euro's at a fair. I wanted that record for a long time and this one looked nice for the price
I could not spot any huge scratches or so..
2. Made a picture from its original state (picture 1)
3. Cleaned it one time with a spraymix (110ml 99% Iso + 220ml Dest. water) and some cotton while it spinned on my Okki Nokki. To take of the most of the dust.
4. Made a picture (picture 2). You see, there is still quite some dust on the vinyl. Played one track and recorded that. It was then I realised a live-album might not have been the best choice for this project.
5. Did the ultrasonic act. Turns out my cleaner can be filled till 5 liter (not 4.7 as claimed earlier). The mix I used was approx. 140ml Iso 99% + 4.9L dest. water. First 20 minutes 'degass' - time. Then 14 minutes, slowest setting on the Sonic Spin Kit (about 2 full spins). No heating (water was around 37C, I measured).
6. Vacuumed it off (till dry) on my Okki Nokki. Approx. 4 spins.
7. Rinse with destilled water twice, both ways.
8. Let it airdry for 15 minutes before playing and recording the same track as before. I was kinda shocked to see how much 'dust' a LP attracts by just drying. Not something that directly influence the sound, but still... Before playing I used a brush to take of this 'dust' (1 spin).
I wish I could let you hear the tracks, but I have not found something easy. Soundcloud is taking it down due copyright-stuff.
Happy with the result. The album has some scratches I have not seen before buying, but from what I have heard sofar it is fine.
Any questions or requests, just ask!
As promised, I have cleaned a record and made pictures with my microscope to show the difference.
Here is the what I did. Pictures 1 + 2 + 3 are made from the exact same location, 4 and 5 are bonuspictures.
1. Bought a record, Bob Marley & The Wailers- Live for 3 euro's at a fair. I wanted that record for a long time and this one looked nice for the price
I could not spot any huge scratches or so..2. Made a picture from its original state (picture 1)
3. Cleaned it one time with a spraymix (110ml 99% Iso + 220ml Dest. water) and some cotton while it spinned on my Okki Nokki. To take of the most of the dust.
4. Made a picture (picture 2). You see, there is still quite some dust on the vinyl. Played one track and recorded that. It was then I realised a live-album might not have been the best choice for this project.
5. Did the ultrasonic act. Turns out my cleaner can be filled till 5 liter (not 4.7 as claimed earlier). The mix I used was approx. 140ml Iso 99% + 4.9L dest. water. First 20 minutes 'degass' - time. Then 14 minutes, slowest setting on the Sonic Spin Kit (about 2 full spins). No heating (water was around 37C, I measured).
6. Vacuumed it off (till dry) on my Okki Nokki. Approx. 4 spins.
7. Rinse with destilled water twice, both ways.
8. Let it airdry for 15 minutes before playing and recording the same track as before. I was kinda shocked to see how much 'dust' a LP attracts by just drying. Not something that directly influence the sound, but still... Before playing I used a brush to take of this 'dust' (1 spin).
I wish I could let you hear the tracks, but I have not found something easy. Soundcloud is taking it down due copyright-stuff.
Happy with the result. The album has some scratches I have not seen before buying, but from what I have heard sofar it is fine.
Any questions or requests, just ask!
Last edited:
As promised, I have cleaned a record and made pictures with my microscope to show the difference.
Here is the what I did. Pictures 1 + 2 + 3 are made from the exact same location, 4 and 5 are bonuspictures.
1. Bought a record, Bob Marley & The Wailers- Live for 3 euro's at a fair. I wanted that record for a long time and this one looked nice for the price
2. Made a picture from its original state (picture 1)
3. Cleaned it one time with a spraymix (110ml 99% Iso + 220ml Dest. water) and some cotton while it spinned on my Okki Nokki. To take of the most of the dust.
4. Made a picture (picture 2). You see, there is still quite some dust on the vinyl. Played one track and recorded that. It was then I realised a live-album might not have been the best choice for this project.
5. Did the ultrasonic act. Turns out my cleaner can be filled till 5 liter (not 4.7 as claimed earlier). The mix I used was approx. 140ml Iso 99% + 4.9L dest. water. First 20 minutes 'degass' - time. Then 14 minutes, slowest setting on the Sonic Spin Kit (about 2 full spins). No heating (water was around 37C, I measured).
6. Vacuumed it off (till dry) on my Okki Nokki. Approx. 4 spins.
7. Rinse with destilled water twice, both ways.
8. Let it airdry for 15 minutes before playing and recording the same track as before. I was kinda shocked to see how much 'dust' a LP attracts by just drying. Not something that directly influence the sound, but still... Before playing I used a brush to take of this 'dust' (1 spin).
I wish I could let you hear the tracks, but I have not found something easy. Soundcloud is taking it down due copyright-stuff.
Happy with the result. The album has some scratches I have not seen before buying, but from what I have heard sofar it is fine.
Any questions or requests, just ask!
Thanks for the report and photos!Liquid temperature rise during US?
Hello all,
this is my first post on diyAudio, but I'm a longtime reader, specially of this thread. I'm on the way to construct my own US Record Cleaner. My machine will be based on a Chinese 6.5L US cleaner available in Europe; I didn't found any source for a higher frequency model (and Vibrato LLC seems in difficulty to satisfy orders...)
Actually the unit arrived very quickly, as it was sent to me from a warehouse located in Bremen, Germany. I expected the usual one month delivery time, but it arrived within a week At the moment of arrival I wasn't prepared with any equipment for LP rotation, so I decided to go on the manual way (as I was too curious for the results
So I took my Knosti's LP clamp, prolonged its short shafts using a McDonald's straw cut in half, poured in some demin water, denatured alcohol and some dishwasher liquid, and let's roll
I spun manually the record with a speed equal to a 20-min cycle time, then remove record from bath, put on the Knosti's stand for drying for another 20 min, then test play. I have to say I was amused with the result, some unplayable but anyway good records (only dirt and mould and stuff, no scratches) played as new... incredible
But then, what I'm writing about: I started the process with a room temp liquid, and during the sessions I noticed that the (very unreliable) integrated thermometer starts to show values higher and higher. Checking the water temp by hand confirmed that it became extremely warm, like 60 degC or even more! I almost lost a good Jacko LP as it started to warp already when I realized what's goin' on... fortunately I managed to save the record by quickly rotating it fast, still submerged in the hot liquid, then gradually removing it from the bath, maintaining the fast manual spinning. Probably equalizing the temperature around the record and the gradual and balanced cooldown helped (or I was just very lucky...), but eventually the record became flat as it was before
So the question is: anyone experienced intense temperature rise during US cleaning? It seems that right now I can do three, maybe four 20-min cycles before the water became too hot and thus dangerous for the records (starting from room temp). I did an aluminium wrap test with the cleaner when it arrived (with normal tap water of course) and I would judge it as successful as the sheet became full of small holes everywhere and there were even places on the lower part where big pieces came off... after some 5 mins of exposure if I remember well. So I have no idea where the heat comes from, as the cleaner's built-in heater is a joke and it's surely off during cleaning.
By the way, regarding quality: during the first cycles I noticed that the zizi noise changed a little bit so I opened up the cleaner and found a broken solder joint on one of its transducer's electrode...
Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading
Jano
Hello all,
this is my first post on diyAudio, but I'm a longtime reader, specially of this thread. I'm on the way to construct my own US Record Cleaner. My machine will be based on a Chinese 6.5L US cleaner available in Europe; I didn't found any source for a higher frequency model (and Vibrato LLC seems in difficulty to satisfy orders...)
Actually the unit arrived very quickly, as it was sent to me from a warehouse located in Bremen, Germany. I expected the usual one month delivery time, but it arrived within a week
At the moment of arrival I wasn't prepared with any equipment for LP rotation, so I decided to go on the manual way (as I was too curious for the results So I took my Knosti's LP clamp, prolonged its short shafts using a McDonald's straw cut in half, poured in some demin water, denatured alcohol and some dishwasher liquid, and let's roll
I spun manually the record with a speed equal to a 20-min cycle time, then remove record from bath, put on the Knosti's stand for drying for another 20 min, then test play. I have to say I was amused with the result, some unplayable but anyway good records (only dirt and mould and stuff, no scratches) played as new... incredible
But then, what I'm writing about: I started the process with a room temp liquid, and during the sessions I noticed that the (very unreliable) integrated thermometer starts to show values higher and higher. Checking the water temp by hand confirmed that it became extremely warm, like 60 degC or even more! I almost lost a good Jacko LP as it started to warp already when I realized what's goin' on... fortunately I managed to save the record by quickly rotating it fast, still submerged in the hot liquid, then gradually removing it from the bath, maintaining the fast manual spinning. Probably equalizing the temperature around the record and the gradual and balanced cooldown helped (or I was just very lucky...), but eventually the record became flat as it was before
So the question is: anyone experienced intense temperature rise during US cleaning? It seems that right now I can do three, maybe four 20-min cycles before the water became too hot and thus dangerous for the records (starting from room temp). I did an aluminium wrap test with the cleaner when it arrived (with normal tap water of course) and I would judge it as successful as the sheet became full of small holes everywhere and there were even places on the lower part where big pieces came off... after some 5 mins of exposure if I remember well. So I have no idea where the heat comes from, as the cleaner's built-in heater is a joke and it's surely off during cleaning.
By the way, regarding quality: during the first cycles I noticed that the zizi noise changed a little bit so I opened up the cleaner and found a broken solder joint on one of its transducer's electrode...
Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading
Jano
Hi, just to add a bit of skepticism and warning.
At the beginning of the year I have bought myself a China 40KHz machine and a motor. In 9 L bath I washed 4 LPs distanced 40mm each, to allow fully develop 40Khz waves, each time, (for too many times) . Five minutes 2 turns cleaning.
The firs Lp I have listened was Respighi-Pines LSC and although sound picture was big and clear, I have found the music to be uninvolving with no magic present, that I was used to experience before. Later I have listened to another copy of Pines and a reissue from 90ies, and both were fine.
The cleaned one was damaged. And so were all 12 LPs that I have cleaned. After careful listening to all cleaned LPs I have found that what is the most important of reproduced music to me, has gone. Focus, contrast and dynamics.
The structure of the musical event was heavily damaged. No more tridimensional image of the the event. Yes the record was cleaned.
These are heavy duty machines, see what they do to aluminium foil, they damage vinyl to. I think you must be careful, and use them as Mr.Kuzma do, at half of their power and more LPs stacked with less distance between them in a bath, or use an 80Khz machine, but again with possibility to control the power.
I am done with US cleaners, but the problem is that used LPs cleaned with them are more and more around...
Ales
At the beginning of the year I have bought myself a China 40KHz machine and a motor. In 9 L bath I washed 4 LPs distanced 40mm each, to allow fully develop 40Khz waves, each time, (for too many times) . Five minutes 2 turns cleaning.
The firs Lp I have listened was Respighi-Pines LSC and although sound picture was big and clear, I have found the music to be uninvolving with no magic present, that I was used to experience before. Later I have listened to another copy of Pines and a reissue from 90ies, and both were fine.
The cleaned one was damaged. And so were all 12 LPs that I have cleaned. After careful listening to all cleaned LPs I have found that what is the most important of reproduced music to me, has gone. Focus, contrast and dynamics.
The structure of the musical event was heavily damaged. No more tridimensional image of the the event. Yes the record was cleaned.
These are heavy duty machines, see what they do to aluminium foil, they damage vinyl to. I think you must be careful, and use them as Mr.Kuzma do, at half of their power and more LPs stacked with less distance between them in a bath, or use an 80Khz machine, but again with possibility to control the power.
I am done with US cleaners, but the problem is that used LPs cleaned with them are more and more around...
Ales
Sorry to hear of your problems, Ales.
Moral of the story: Buy a high quality machine that you KNOW is operating at 60 khz or whatever your chosen frequency is. Cheap, cheaply made machines don't distribute power in the bath evenly, and many aren't even operating at their stated frequency of 40khz - they may well be operating at 20 or 25khz!
Many intricate, delicate items are successfully cleaned using ultrasonic cleaners, as long as the chosen frequency, power density and power distribution is correct for the item at hand.
No one should expect good results if they buy a cheap $200 machine off eBay. Buy a good 60khz machine, or an Elma 80khz or other true medical grade machine and one's records won't be damaged.
B B
Moral of the story: Buy a high quality machine that you KNOW is operating at 60 khz or whatever your chosen frequency is. Cheap, cheaply made machines don't distribute power in the bath evenly, and many aren't even operating at their stated frequency of 40khz - they may well be operating at 20 or 25khz!
Many intricate, delicate items are successfully cleaned using ultrasonic cleaners, as long as the chosen frequency, power density and power distribution is correct for the item at hand.
No one should expect good results if they buy a cheap $200 machine off eBay. Buy a good 60khz machine, or an Elma 80khz or other true medical grade machine and one's records won't be damaged.
B B
I would be interested if it is possible to measure what the level of the damage is.
As part of some research into surface friction and noise which will require me to do some evil things to a record like wet play it would be interesting to hammer it with the cheapest, nastiest chinese unit I can find on fleabay to see if there is any measurable damage. Some research from the early 80s indicates that even a simple wet clean can change the friction properties of the vinyl. Also trying to bottom out the perceived wisdom that if you wet play a record you can never dry play it again as it gets noisy.
Note the above does fly against evidence from people using ultrasound. No reports of records getting noisier and I am sure that people are cleaning new out the sleeve purchases and not just full of grit and grot garage sale finds. But of course few are actually measuring the noise floor of the vinyl...
If anyone has found ticks and pops increasing on some records after cleaning I would be interested to know, particularly details of where and when the record was made. Sadly the previous published research didn't note who the pressing plants were.
As part of some research into surface friction and noise which will require me to do some evil things to a record like wet play it would be interesting to hammer it with the cheapest, nastiest chinese unit I can find on fleabay to see if there is any measurable damage. Some research from the early 80s indicates that even a simple wet clean can change the friction properties of the vinyl. Also trying to bottom out the perceived wisdom that if you wet play a record you can never dry play it again as it gets noisy.
Note the above does fly against evidence from people using ultrasound. No reports of records getting noisier and I am sure that people are cleaning new out the sleeve purchases and not just full of grit and grot garage sale finds. But of course few are actually measuring the noise floor of the vinyl...
If anyone has found ticks and pops increasing on some records after cleaning I would be interested to know, particularly details of where and when the record was made. Sadly the previous published research didn't note who the pressing plants were.
B B I just wanted to say, that you must have a machine with adjustable power, use it very genly, and must know that you start ruining your vinyl way before you see alu foil perforating. It would be difficult to state at wich power on one machine, because of different vinyl hardness. Very complex.
A.
A.
nnjano, I'm using a 40Khz Chinese build USC and certainly the temperature rises as a result of cavitation, but I haven't experienced the rapid very high temperature rise you describe. I only run my tank for 10 minutes per cleaning cycle, but I DO run multiple cleaning cycles in succession. Sorry to hear of the difficulty you're experiencing....But then, what I'm writing about: I started the process with a room temp liquid, and during the sessions I noticed that the (very unreliable) integrated thermometer starts to show values higher and higher. Checking the water temp by hand confirmed that it became extremely warm, like 60 degC or even more! I almost lost a good Jacko LP as it started to warp already when I realized what's goin' on... fortunately I managed to save the record by quickly rotating it fast, still submerged in the hot liquid, then gradually removing it from the bath, maintaining the fast manual spinning. Probably equalizing the temperature around the record and the gradual and balanced cooldown helped (or I was just very lucky...), but eventually the record became flat as it was before
So the question is: anyone experienced intense temperature rise during US cleaning? It seems that right now I can do three, maybe four 20-min cycles before the water became too hot and thus dangerous for the records (starting from room temp).
So it must be something to do with the US power transmitted to the liquid, I suppose. As I wrote, this machine seems very powerful, maybe it is from a batch when QC was present in the factory?
Anyway if you do 10 minutes cycles, then it is already half the operation time I did during my tests, so it means you can clean at least the double the LP count I managed to do, say 6-8 LPs?How many records do you clean during a session?
And what would you imagine?
Aluminium foil is a rigid, fragile material, which starts to resonate with the frequency of the US excitation, this in turn will cause fatigue fracturing, and this is what we see as small dots.
Vinyl is a flexible stuff, and as the material is way much thicker as well, it cannot resonate on the frequency of the excitation. So you'll never see dots on your vinyl, unless you don't test your new Winchester on it
Jano
(I could not find the way how to edit my own post, even in the FAQ so I modify my question this way)
Actually there is / could be one more thing. As I wrote, I'm in manual mode with a single record in the bath at a time. I imagine that more records in the liquid means more attenuation of the US waves, this means less cavitation, thus less heating?
You do 3 records at a time RRushton, don't you? So my modified question could be something like: how many times can you repeat a 3-records-packet cleaning before the liquid becomes too warm?
Jano
I don't think that tickness matters and some of the dirt on the vinyl is more flexible and softer than vinyl and so should not be fractured by excitation, but happens. What matters is serious degradation of sound after US cleaning. And you don't need new Winchester.
Everyone can clean his own Lps as he likes, but problem rises, because there are emerging vendors of used vinyl that use US cleaning and this is , that is not cool.
Just to know that all do not support US cleaning.
A.
Everyone can clean his own Lps as he likes, but problem rises, because there are emerging vendors of used vinyl that use US cleaning and this is , that is not cool.
Just to know that all do not support US cleaning.
A.
Sorry to read you are not having success. Your degradation of sound seems to be a pretty unique occurance versus the opposite conclusion of most partipants of this thread. I would like to reiterate what others have said about the Chinese US cleaner. They are problematic and cheaply built. Louis the builder of the Vibrato cleaners and who has worked for Sonix can attest to that.
Your thoughts that vendors of US cleaned vinyl is not cool is unfortunate but again an opinion based on your negative results. My opinion is you need to try a better US cleaner (sonix, elmasonic, vibrato) before forever writing off ultrasonic cleaning.