I just did some THD measurements, I couldn't get any consistent results with HolmImpulse but it did work with ARTA and REW5, both gave me the same results:
from 35Hz to 200Hz I have too many room interactions but most of it is below 1%.
From 200Hz to 10kHz it's between 0.2 and 0.3% THD
THD numbers are not that useful unless you state what SPL levels were used. You need to know your mic's voltage sensitivity for this or have an SPL meter available. It's customary to state dB at 1m. You can extrapolate near field and close-ish measurements (that would be much less prone to, or would eliminate, room modes) to 1m.
Hi --- todays better systems can be very low: It has not been difficult to find speakers that produce <1% at 80dB at 3 feet at 40Hz. I measured a 15 inch JBL bass driver more than 30 years ago to be this low in a bass-reflex/ported enclosure measured at the tuned freq.
Now I use the newest QUAD electrostatics which are ten times lower.... and even less at mid range freqs. Some headphones are also very low in THD and IM as well, today.
THx-RNMarsh
Now I use the newest QUAD electrostatics which are ten times lower.... and even less at mid range freqs. Some headphones are also very low in THD and IM as well, today.
THx-RNMarsh
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Yeah I know, it was just a quick test that I did, but I think it was around 85dbc.
I tested them now again, spl meter: 90dbc @1m, mic @1m:
from 40Hz to 100Hz it's between 0.3 and 0.7% THD
from 200Hz to 10kHz most is between 0.3 and 0.4% THD
These measurements are done in my living room, so it's not optimal: there are some room modes, concrete walls, stone floor and also some carpet
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How do you like the bass of the Alcone-s
I have a pair same as yours, I placed in a 75L bass reflex enclosure but I hate the result.
Obvious the 75L is a bit to big, now I take away 10L. Based on the Alcone data for bass reflex they suggest 65L tuned to 28Hz.
My main problem there is no enough sound pressure and the deep-deep bass far away from my requirement or let say my preference.
Also I purchased a pair HI-VI F10 that has more sound pressure but much more colored bass. probably the best would be how you did double up the Alcone woofer al do you need at least 110-120L enclosure for two woofer.
One think I do not want to end up 4Ohms at the bass area because I have some bridged amplifier like Aleph X and with that the 8R already count to 4 Ohms.
Please let me know how you like the bass of these Alcons.
Thank you
Greetings Gabor
I have a pair same as yours, I placed in a 75L bass reflex enclosure but I hate the result.
Obvious the 75L is a bit to big, now I take away 10L. Based on the Alcone data for bass reflex they suggest 65L tuned to 28Hz.
My main problem there is no enough sound pressure and the deep-deep bass far away from my requirement or let say my preference.
Also I purchased a pair HI-VI F10 that has more sound pressure but much more colored bass. probably the best would be how you did double up the Alcone woofer al do you need at least 110-120L enclosure for two woofer.
One think I do not want to end up 4Ohms at the bass area because I have some bridged amplifier like Aleph X and with that the 8R already count to 4 Ohms.
Please let me know how you like the bass of these Alcons.
Thank you
Greetings Gabor
Hi Gaborbela,
It's not a sealed enclosure, the bass reflex pipe is at the bottom.
A sealed enclosure does not give enough bass extension with these drivers.
I used a down firing port, so I get the advantage of floor loading.
The port has an internal diameter of 7cm and about 12cm long (have to check it to be sure).
The cabinets are on Soundcare Superspikes with the 2 front spikes made 1.5cm larger.
To tune the port I used my microphone close to the port to see the output.
My cabinets are 75 liter, the same as yours but then for 2 drivers, that's a big difference !
Later this year I will make some 110 liter cabinets, to squeeze some extra dbs @30Hz out of them and also make them a little taller.
My cabinets have lots of bracing, the front panel is 5cm thick.
All the walls have thick green felt, behind the drivers there is some light stuffing but not around the port.
The sound quality is very good, a contra-bass sounds like a real contra-bass with plenty of detail.
Also with electronic music (like from Actress R.I.P.) there's plenty of very low rumble.
My cabinets with the down firing port work really good in my room,
with bass the room plays a big role in the result.
Regards,
Danny
It's not a sealed enclosure, the bass reflex pipe is at the bottom.
A sealed enclosure does not give enough bass extension with these drivers.
I used a down firing port, so I get the advantage of floor loading.
The port has an internal diameter of 7cm and about 12cm long (have to check it to be sure).
The cabinets are on Soundcare Superspikes with the 2 front spikes made 1.5cm larger.
To tune the port I used my microphone close to the port to see the output.
My cabinets are 75 liter, the same as yours but then for 2 drivers, that's a big difference !
Later this year I will make some 110 liter cabinets, to squeeze some extra dbs @30Hz out of them and also make them a little taller.
My cabinets have lots of bracing, the front panel is 5cm thick.
All the walls have thick green felt, behind the drivers there is some light stuffing but not around the port.
The sound quality is very good, a contra-bass sounds like a real contra-bass with plenty of detail.
Also with electronic music (like from Actress R.I.P.) there's plenty of very low rumble.
My cabinets with the down firing port work really good in my room,
with bass the room plays a big role in the result.
Regards,
Danny
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I follow some of your advise
Today I made some listening test on one Alcone woofer compared to two connected together and one Alcone with one Hi-Vi F10
I used a 4mH inductor for the test only
The two Alcone a huge step up to the one all do I prefer one Alcone with one Hi-Vi
The sound get more body, warmer and not as metallic (overly precise) like the two Alcone together.
Now I do live the metal cone woofers, for the last decade I listening a Visaton AL130.
To me somehow the one Alcone in 75L enclosure sounded thin, not enough low end a bit to cold.
I could not tested the two in one enclosure like yours! For that I would need a new enclosure
So that was the main reason todays test, I thought lets test it before I order one more pair Alcone.
I agree with you a larger enclosure would give better bass!!
Please take a look at these speaker, the two woofer got 96L.. Your plan for 110L in BR even better on simulation.
To me because I match the Alcone with the Hi-Vi the enclosure need to be totally separated from each other also I have to tune both separately.
Only the 4R or 16R impedance not the best to me but what can I do.
For mid Driver I use a Gorlich Podzust. Tweeter right now a Morel soft dome but later that can be replaced if necessary.
Thanks for the advise to double up the woofers
Greetings Gabor
Today I made some listening test on one Alcone woofer compared to two connected together and one Alcone with one Hi-Vi F10
I used a 4mH inductor for the test only
The two Alcone a huge step up to the one all do I prefer one Alcone with one Hi-Vi
The sound get more body, warmer and not as metallic (overly precise) like the two Alcone together.
Now I do live the metal cone woofers, for the last decade I listening a Visaton AL130.
To me somehow the one Alcone in 75L enclosure sounded thin, not enough low end a bit to cold.
I could not tested the two in one enclosure like yours! For that I would need a new enclosure
So that was the main reason todays test, I thought lets test it before I order one more pair Alcone.
I agree with you a larger enclosure would give better bass!!
Please take a look at these speaker, the two woofer got 96L.. Your plan for 110L in BR even better on simulation.
To me because I match the Alcone with the Hi-Vi the enclosure need to be totally separated from each other also I have to tune both separately.
Only the 4R or 16R impedance not the best to me but what can I do.
For mid Driver I use a Gorlich Podzust. Tweeter right now a Morel soft dome but later that can be replaced if necessary.
Thanks for the advise to double up the woofers
Greetings Gabor
Attachments
Hi Gaborbela,
With the 2 Alcones in parallel try the 4mh with an additional 70-100uf in parallel with the woofers, like in my filter.
That will suppress the cone breakup with 40db instead of 20db.
This could be the reasons that the Alcones sound more metallic.
If you use two woofers in parallel then your bridged Aleph will not handle it because of the too low impedance (3 ohms).
Why not use them in parallel or biamp ?
Two woofers are also better to counteract the Allison effect.
Two different woofers is not practical, in fact you'll get a 4-way, with separate cabinets and crossovers.
The total mH of the coils for the basses will be 4x bigger (=4x expensive).
Example: two identical woofers in parallel need about 3mH in series, if you use separate crossovers for the 2 woofers you'll need 2x 6mH to get an identical slope.
The Visaton AL130 is an excellent driver, I've used it also in another speaker for a decade.
The Podszus-Görlich looks also nice, very light membrane.
For tweeters their are many good choices: SB TW29R, CSS LD25X, TL N26C, SS Beryllium, KE25SC, Raal (ofcourse )...
Have fun !
Regards,
Danny
With the 2 Alcones in parallel try the 4mh with an additional 70-100uf in parallel with the woofers, like in my filter.
That will suppress the cone breakup with 40db instead of 20db.
This could be the reasons that the Alcones sound more metallic.
If you use two woofers in parallel then your bridged Aleph will not handle it because of the too low impedance (3 ohms).
Why not use them in parallel or biamp ?
Two woofers are also better to counteract the Allison effect.
Two different woofers is not practical, in fact you'll get a 4-way, with separate cabinets and crossovers.
The total mH of the coils for the basses will be 4x bigger (=4x expensive).
Example: two identical woofers in parallel need about 3mH in series, if you use separate crossovers for the 2 woofers you'll need 2x 6mH to get an identical slope.
The Visaton AL130 is an excellent driver, I've used it also in another speaker for a decade.
The Podszus-Görlich looks also nice, very light membrane.
For tweeters their are many good choices: SB TW29R, CSS LD25X, TL N26C, SS Beryllium, KE25SC, Raal (ofcourse
)...Have fun !
Regards,
Danny
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HI danny_66
Today I made more tests.
Yes the capacitor a parallel with the drivers helps a lot!
The sharpness of the Alcone totally disappear.
I compared the HI-VI/Alcone with the two Alcone using the capacitor.
The difference just got bigger for the favour Alcone/Hi-Vi duo with the capacitor.
I'm so happy because from a while (years) I look for decent bass for these project.
So many driver was tested 8" Vifa, Scan speak, Monacor, Audax, Beyma , some old used drivers from B&O and AD..
After I went up a size 10" Alcone, Hi-Vi F10
These combo together sound impressive, I will keep it that way , I'd rather spend more on the crossover knowing now I have the sound I was after so long time.
I was close to use a vintage JBL LE14A 14" Alnico signature series woofer.
Now these two better choice has better deeper bass.
I wish you have a friend or someone who has these Hi-Vi F10 woofers so you can easily test them together with the Alcone.
Again the two Alcone together was a huge improvement over just one per side.
Thanks for the advise again!
I'll take a look those tweeter you offered.
Two drive these speaker biamp can be a option but not with a Aleph X, that amplifier biased 7A/channel it is already over the limit electricity bill $$$.
I think I can find better solution to drive these speakers..
Even a low power SE tube amp like 300B or 45 can drive these because it will be sensitive enough.
Now I have to found out where I can get full sheet Baltic birch to cut out the wood material.
Home Depot the most popular store in Canada only carry 4x2 feet size only.
That way need a lot of small sheet and would be very pricy.
Greetings Gabor
Today I made more tests.
Yes the capacitor a parallel with the drivers helps a lot!
The sharpness of the Alcone totally disappear.
I compared the HI-VI/Alcone with the two Alcone using the capacitor.
The difference just got bigger for the favour Alcone/Hi-Vi duo with the capacitor.
I'm so happy because from a while (years) I look for decent bass for these project.
So many driver was tested 8" Vifa, Scan speak, Monacor, Audax, Beyma , some old used drivers from B&O and AD..
After I went up a size 10" Alcone, Hi-Vi F10
These combo together sound impressive, I will keep it that way , I'd rather spend more on the crossover knowing now I have the sound I was after so long time.
I was close to use a vintage JBL LE14A 14" Alnico signature series woofer.
Now these two better choice has better deeper bass.
I wish you have a friend or someone who has these Hi-Vi F10 woofers so you can easily test them together with the Alcone.
Again the two Alcone together was a huge improvement over just one per side.
Thanks for the advise again!
I'll take a look those tweeter you offered.
Two drive these speaker biamp can be a option but not with a Aleph X, that amplifier biased 7A/channel it is already over the limit electricity bill $$$.
I think I can find better solution to drive these speakers..
Even a low power SE tube amp like 300B or 45 can drive these because it will be sensitive enough.
Now I have to found out where I can get full sheet Baltic birch to cut out the wood material.
Home Depot the most popular store in Canada only carry 4x2 feet size only.
That way need a lot of small sheet and would be very pricy.
Greetings Gabor
More tests with better crossover components and some different music
OK these is my final conclusion on these comparison two Alcone VS Alcone & Hi-Vi duo
The two Alcone more precise the quality of the bass all the way to the low end much better!
The drum and bass and piano more separated, sound cleaner
The Alcone & Hi-Vi duo has a bit more bass and a bit warmer but not as precise etc.
If I would have the second Alcone pair I think after today listening I would go with them.
Now all these test until now was done with out enclosure, the drivers on the carpet next to each other.
Again the two woofer VS one is a huge step up! Using the capacitor parallel with the drivers totally get read of the sharpness of the metal cone but still remain precise and very well controlled.
Further test I will do on Monday, I'll lay done the two enclosure next to each other and I will listen these driver in the enclosure.
Let see from the enclosure if I get similar result.
I hope with these tests I do not mess up your thread..
Greetings G
OK these is my final conclusion on these comparison two Alcone VS Alcone & Hi-Vi duo
The two Alcone more precise the quality of the bass all the way to the low end much better!
The drum and bass and piano more separated, sound cleaner
The Alcone & Hi-Vi duo has a bit more bass and a bit warmer but not as precise etc.
If I would have the second Alcone pair I think after today listening I would go with them.
Now all these test until now was done with out enclosure, the drivers on the carpet next to each other.
Again the two woofer VS one is a huge step up! Using the capacitor parallel with the drivers totally get read of the sharpness of the metal cone but still remain precise and very well controlled.
Further test I will do on Monday, I'll lay done the two enclosure next to each other and I will listen these driver in the enclosure.
Let see from the enclosure if I get similar result.
I hope with these tests I do not mess up your thread..
Greetings G
Hi,
Yes, I have both amps but the First One is still not assembled.
I hope to have it done within 2 weeks then I will compare them.
The weather here is too nice for working inside so we have been riding our racebikes in the Ardennes.
But I can already say that the First One with SMPS will be much better for bass than the F5, especially with your 2x s280-11 the First One looks a better candidate.
By the way: nice built of your speakers
Regards,
Danny
Yes, I have both amps but the First One is still not assembled
. I hope to have it done within 2 weeks then I will compare them.
The weather here is too nice for working inside so we have been riding our racebikes in the Ardennes.
But I can already say that the First One with SMPS will be much better for bass than the F5, especially with your 2x s280-11 the First One looks a better candidate.
By the way: nice built of your speakers
Regards,
Danny
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GREAT BUILD!
And aperiodic is always the way to go in my book (for box speakers of course)
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