Has anyone compared the cheap Vishey blue box MKP to Mundorf Silver/Oil? The Vishey don't come with large values though, may be 1uF at the top? I am not referring to the Vishey 1837, no.
According to the specification, the Vishey MKP is for high frequency use - if it can be accurate and reliable in high frequencies, in theory it is best for audio too.
I have compared the Vishey to Solen and ICW Clarity SA and prefer the sound of the Vishey. They are more neutral with less colourations. I sometimes feel they can be a tiny bit harsh on the extreme top end but it may due to the circuit rather than the capacitor.
Soongsc:
What caps paralleled with what small caps give very close performance, if you don't mind sharing?
Regards,
Bill
According to the specification, the Vishey MKP is for high frequency use - if it can be accurate and reliable in high frequencies, in theory it is best for audio too.
I have compared the Vishey to Solen and ICW Clarity SA and prefer the sound of the Vishey. They are more neutral with less colourations. I sometimes feel they can be a tiny bit harsh on the extreme top end but it may due to the circuit rather than the capacitor.
Soongsc:
What caps paralleled with what small caps give very close performance, if you don't mind sharing?
Regards,
Bill
Interesting thread. I was having trouble with my CD player's coupling cap (required to block several volts DC from the discrete output stage) as I wanted it to sound good, but not spend a fortune.
I've found Black Gate AC to sound ok, but ultimately not clear at the top end, and exaggerated in the bass. They also do that Black Gate thing of sounding "silky" in the midrange, where I don't think it sounded like that on the CD...!
I've also tried Siemens/Epcos MKV 3.3uF 600V but in spite of a fantastically open presentation (like no cap) it caused a bass roll off (easily detected unsighted).
For now I've tagged the BG AC to the MKV and feel no need to change. I have detail, openness, tone, great bass and wonderful treble. Very natural indeed.
Another forum member has had good results with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Gold in the same location. 250v Mundorf MKPs are also very good, which I have heard in coupling applications and in a crossover (tweeter), but they are perhaps ever so slightly rough and not as natural as the finest. They have good bass.
I have tried ClarityCap SA in some crossovers and found the sound sweet and natural, no complaints there.
Simon
I've found Black Gate AC to sound ok, but ultimately not clear at the top end, and exaggerated in the bass. They also do that Black Gate thing of sounding "silky" in the midrange, where I don't think it sounded like that on the CD...!
I've also tried Siemens/Epcos MKV 3.3uF 600V but in spite of a fantastically open presentation (like no cap) it caused a bass roll off (easily detected unsighted).
For now I've tagged the BG AC to the MKV and feel no need to change. I have detail, openness, tone, great bass and wonderful treble. Very natural indeed.
Another forum member has had good results with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Gold in the same location. 250v Mundorf MKPs are also very good, which I have heard in coupling applications and in a crossover (tweeter), but they are perhaps ever so slightly rough and not as natural as the finest. They have good bass.
I have tried ClarityCap SA in some crossovers and found the sound sweet and natural, no complaints there.
Simon
My experience is that differnces between caps are not huge. I replaced solens with Clarity Caps, generic Polyprop with Auricap, Bennic with Multicaps and tried Polystyrene caps to replace generic Panasonics PP, and the differences for me were imperceptible. Someone can experience differents results and hear some subtle difference, but I doubt any claims of big changes in sound.
Typically, this is what happens:
-A guy wants to improve the sound of his CD player/amp/speaker
-He reads on the forums that this new capacitor X is really great and opens up the soundstage a lot.
-He spends 100$ (or more) on fancy caps
-He remove the old cap from his machine (1 hour min)
-He solder the new caps in his amp (1 hour min)
-Plug back everything and press play 3 hour later
-Wow, the sound is really better! These new caps are great! I'll quickly write that on the forums.
Now I don't think I need to explain why this "test" procedure is all wrong.
However, as a few people have mentionned here, side by side compasaisons are possible and have been done, and some people have done more rigourous testing. It's all about the methodology. There might be truth somewhere hidden in all the false claims.
Typically, this is what happens:
-A guy wants to improve the sound of his CD player/amp/speaker
-He reads on the forums that this new capacitor X is really great and opens up the soundstage a lot.
-He spends 100$ (or more) on fancy caps
-He remove the old cap from his machine (1 hour min)
-He solder the new caps in his amp (1 hour min)
-Plug back everything and press play 3 hour later
-Wow, the sound is really better! These new caps are great! I'll quickly write that on the forums.
Now I don't think I need to explain why this "test" procedure is all wrong.
However, as a few people have mentionned here, side by side compasaisons are possible and have been done, and some people have done more rigourous testing. It's all about the methodology. There might be truth somewhere hidden in all the false claims.
"You seem to know some seriously retarded guys."
ahah, I know it can be much quicker, but it still took me almost 1 hour to install the 4 bypass at the bottom of my tube amp, hidden behind wires and stuff and i'm just very slightly retarded.
My point is that it's not what I would call a instant change, thus, most conclusions based on that methodology are at least very weak.
F
ahah, I know it can be much quicker, but it still took me almost 1 hour to install the 4 bypass at the bottom of my tube amp, hidden behind wires and stuff and i'm just very slightly retarded.
My point is that it's not what I would call a instant change, thus, most conclusions based on that methodology are at least very weak.
F
Whilst I can appreciate the "quick fix" (quick to shun expensive parts?) approach some like to take, I find subtle changes tend to take a long time to comprehend. Some changes can easily be heard blindly, and some you find yourself guessing, but over time your enjoyment of the music is telling.
I don't think you'll create a superb system without some patience, just another mid-fi.
Simon
I don't think you'll create a superb system without some patience, just another mid-fi.
Simon
My opinion is based upon a LOT of testing, most of it switchable in real time. Measurements showed no differences and any potential audible consequences were not consistently noted on my speakers or STAX electrostatic cans. The 'over time' viewpoint is way too easily discounted through differing moods and perceptions of the listener on different days and sessions.SimontY said:
Nice attempt at trying to trying to discount my experience with the cheap "quick fix" shot. Typical fall back position.
Mundorf Caps
Looking for help in deciding which caps to go with for a cross over for the following. Sealed enclosure using Seas Millennium tweeter and Scanspeaks Revelator woofers. While cost is not a concern, I know spending a ton of money does not guarantee the best speakers. I have been looking at the Mundorf line of capacitors. I have also taken a look at some comparisons done on http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html. He rates the Silver Gold Oil as the best out of the line. I will be upgrading to the Parasound New Classics later this year. What do some of you think works best in this configuration? Will I really be able to appreciate/tell the difference with the Silver Gold Oil?
Looking for help in deciding which caps to go with for a cross over for the following. Sealed enclosure using Seas Millennium tweeter and Scanspeaks Revelator woofers. While cost is not a concern, I know spending a ton of money does not guarantee the best speakers. I have been looking at the Mundorf line of capacitors. I have also taken a look at some comparisons done on http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html. He rates the Silver Gold Oil as the best out of the line. I will be upgrading to the Parasound New Classics later this year. What do some of you think works best in this configuration? Will I really be able to appreciate/tell the difference with the Silver Gold Oil?
I just did some listening and spectral decay of Mundorf M-cap capacitors in 2 designs with the following bypass capacitors added to each capacitor in series with the tweeter and midrange drivers.the spectral decay showed small changes to each one measured.Listening results were the Mundorf Supreme capacitors with Silver/Gold and oil .01 bypass capacitors added to the Supreme capacitors. These are by far the most enriching yet not compressing blend of caps I have found.
Here is what I tested for bypass caps added to Mundorf M-cap capacitors
Dayton .01uf
Sonicap GenII .1uf
Sonicap Platinum .01
Mundorf supreme .1uf
Mundorf Silver/Oil .01
Mundorf Silver/Gold and Oil .01uf
Auricap .01
Money no object!
Mundorf Supreme capacitors
then add Mundorf Silver/Gold and oil .01 bypass caps to each series capacitor.
Here is what I tested for bypass caps added to Mundorf M-cap capacitors
Dayton .01uf
Sonicap GenII .1uf
Sonicap Platinum .01
Mundorf supreme .1uf
Mundorf Silver/Oil .01
Mundorf Silver/Gold and Oil .01uf
Auricap .01
Money no object!
Mundorf Supreme capacitors
then add Mundorf Silver/Gold and oil .01 bypass caps to each series capacitor.
Re: Mundorf Caps
There are two kinds of question:
(i) Can I (or anyone) really hear the differences between two kinds of caps (or any other component)? (Already been argued above.)
(ii) Even if I think I can, does it matter in the specific way the cap is being used?
I believe (ii) is often ignored. If you have a conjugate network across the driver (as most well-designed crossovers will), and there is a cap there that is in series with, say, a 15 ohm resistor, there is absolutely no point in spending $$ on caps for that position that offer super low dissipation factors, because it will make no difference whatsoever. All that matters is that the dissipation factor should be less than 5% of the resistor value. I take DF as a simple parameter but similar arguments hold for other parameters too.
Considering that about half your caps will appear in the conjugate networks, using humble nonpolars electrolytics is something that will save you lots of $$ without costing you an iota of quality, however unfashionable it may seem.
Which of course leads us to
(iii) How much of a fashion statement should my components make? No comment.
-Ram
Ceibal said:
There are two kinds of question:
(i) Can I (or anyone) really hear the differences between two kinds of caps (or any other component)? (Already been argued above.)
(ii) Even if I think I can, does it matter in the specific way the cap is being used?
I believe (ii) is often ignored. If you have a conjugate network across the driver (as most well-designed crossovers will), and there is a cap there that is in series with, say, a 15 ohm resistor, there is absolutely no point in spending $$ on caps for that position that offer super low dissipation factors, because it will make no difference whatsoever. All that matters is that the dissipation factor should be less than 5% of the resistor value. I take DF as a simple parameter but similar arguments hold for other parameters too.
Considering that about half your caps will appear in the conjugate networks, using humble nonpolars electrolytics is something that will save you lots of $$ without costing you an iota of quality, however unfashionable it may seem.
Which of course leads us to
(iii) How much of a fashion statement should my components make? No comment.
-Ram
Can you hear a difference
RAW
How does the Platinum Sonicap compare to the Mundorfs? I have recently heard the Platinum caps I in my one meter long ribbon speakers system they make a helluva difference. I shudder to think that one can still get better !!
RAMKUMARR
In my experience most electronic engineers have tin ears. Many would argue with you that are no difference between caps ! The reality is totally different.
Anyone who is contemplating buying exotic caps needs to ask himself; "Does my speakers drivers have the resolution ability to show the difference in the various brands of caps?" If not then stick to "run-of-mill" high quality caps but dont waste your money on exotic caps. There is a mechannical ceiling to what a conventional speaker cone can do.
In my experience conventional cone loudspeakers will show some improvement with better caps but then you still experiment to find what cap brand works best with your speaker. Randomly buying a exotic cap does not always quarrantee a excellent sound as each speaker has it's own colourations which needs to be counterbalanced with the appropriate "coloured" capacitor. The trick lies in finding the "right" capacitor for your speaker.
Regards
Jozua
RAW
How does the Platinum Sonicap compare to the Mundorfs? I have recently heard the Platinum caps I in my one meter long ribbon speakers system they make a helluva difference. I shudder to think that one can still get better !!
RAMKUMARR
In my experience most electronic engineers have tin ears. Many would argue with you that are no difference between caps ! The reality is totally different.
Anyone who is contemplating buying exotic caps needs to ask himself; "Does my speakers drivers have the resolution ability to show the difference in the various brands of caps?" If not then stick to "run-of-mill" high quality caps but dont waste your money on exotic caps. There is a mechannical ceiling to what a conventional speaker cone can do.
In my experience conventional cone loudspeakers will show some improvement with better caps but then you still experiment to find what cap brand works best with your speaker. Randomly buying a exotic cap does not always quarrantee a excellent sound as each speaker has it's own colourations which needs to be counterbalanced with the appropriate "coloured" capacitor. The trick lies in finding the "right" capacitor for your speaker.
Regards
Jozua
How do the Sonicap Platinum and the Mundorfs compare?
Well for a few years we used Sonicap capacitors with Sonicap GenII bypass caps and Sonicap Platinum bypass caps as well in all our products.
But issues getting them from the US in a time frame and costly manner was challenging so we looked at other lines and settled with Mundorfs.
From what I have found out threw listening as well as customer comments so far people thing the ZN has the similar characterists of the platinum. Ya Ya not going to get into a big debate.Like I said I used the platinums for years.The Mundorf new ZN cost $13.00.The Silver and oil is my top pick now.But cost factor the ZN is hard to beat.
Well for a few years we used Sonicap capacitors with Sonicap GenII bypass caps and Sonicap Platinum bypass caps as well in all our products.
But issues getting them from the US in a time frame and costly manner was challenging so we looked at other lines and settled with Mundorfs.
From what I have found out threw listening as well as customer comments so far people thing the ZN has the similar characterists of the platinum. Ya Ya not going to get into a big debate.Like I said I used the platinums for years.The Mundorf new ZN cost $13.00.The Silver and oil is my top pick now.But cost factor the ZN is hard to beat.