I did I gave away the old analog scope that I had for almost 20 years when I moved.
So when it came time to re-set up my bench I looked at the modern scopes, and it's amazing
to see what even a new digital budget scope can do as compared to an older analog scope.
So if you are looking for a scope you may want to take a look at the new digital scopes.
But I will say if you have an older analog scope now you may want to hang on to it
if you have room for it since they are fun to play with for oscilloscope music etc.
So when it came time to re-set up my bench I looked at the modern scopes, and it's amazing
to see what even a new digital budget scope can do as compared to an older analog scope.
So if you are looking for a scope you may want to take a look at the new digital scopes.
But I will say if you have an older analog scope now you may want to hang on to it
if you have room for it since they are fun to play with for oscilloscope music etc.
Rigol just announced several new 12 bit sub 1K models. One I think is under 500. I feel a bit foolish. I probably would have been happy with the new ones that are way less than the 12 bit I bought they first offered. I think they are trying to really boost their market share with their latest offerings. I am thinking they are grading their 12 bit A/D's based on speed. The best ones go in my model. And instead of tossing the ones that don't meet spec, they just put them in the cheaper models.
Hi,
bandwidth of most modern scopes is software defined, not by 'grading' chip quality.
Scopes from Rigol and Siglent ... who are also going to push into the 12bit market... within a series can typically be 'freed' easily to upgrade functional options.
Which shows that the smaller models are just restricted by software, not hardware.
Indeed are the budget scopes from those named two companies incredibly powerful and capable as analytical scopes, compared to scopes 20 or 10 years ago, let alone analog scopes.
jauu
Calvin
bandwidth of most modern scopes is software defined, not by 'grading' chip quality.
Scopes from Rigol and Siglent ... who are also going to push into the 12bit market... within a series can typically be 'freed' easily to upgrade functional options.
Which shows that the smaller models are just restricted by software, not hardware.
Indeed are the budget scopes from those named two companies incredibly powerful and capable as analytical scopes, compared to scopes 20 or 10 years ago, let alone analog scopes.
jauu
Calvin
The evolution history of DSOs shows that the engineering world is mainly interested in using the DSOs for digital signal integrity analysis.
High speed capabilities, on-screen waveform measurements, signal statistics, digital communication protocol analysis, reporting capabilities.
This is where we notice enormous progress.
The 8bits vertical resolution which has remained unchanged from the start, shows that it is adequate for the needs of the digital domain market .
The current wonderful-software- functionality is embedded past the A to D converter.
The A to D and the analog front end (plus their PSUs) are the two circuits that had to be targeted for to achieve 12bit vertical resolution.
In a couple of years, the 12bit scopes will be affordable to an analog-circuits amateur.
I don’t expect to see a 16-18bit/300USD DSO in my (expected) remaining life span.
George
High speed capabilities, on-screen waveform measurements, signal statistics, digital communication protocol analysis, reporting capabilities.
This is where we notice enormous progress.
The 8bits vertical resolution which has remained unchanged from the start, shows that it is adequate for the needs of the digital domain market .
The current wonderful-software- functionality is embedded past the A to D converter.
The A to D and the analog front end (plus their PSUs) are the two circuits that had to be targeted for to achieve 12bit vertical resolution.
In a couple of years, the 12bit scopes will be affordable to an analog-circuits amateur.
I don’t expect to see a 16-18bit/300USD DSO in my (expected) remaining life span.
George
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Siglent's 12bit scope is already on sale here in China and I'm sorely tempted at 2,700RMB ($380) for the 4-channel, 100MHz variant. Amazing value.
You have a good point here Mark.
I only can say that the BW Limit selection (20MHz/Off) is retained at the 12bit DSOs.
As the front end circuit is implemented in ASIC chips, I don't see a big obstacle to add one or two more lower BW limit selections there.
On the other hand, the reduction of quantisation noise of 12bit rel. to 8 bit is significant.
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com...b9a9ae3ea/1/-/-/-/-/HDO4000_DataSheet_en .pdf
George
Agree the BW is determined by the front-end via sw. In fact the one I purchased came with a "free" upgrade from 200-400. When I said grading, I was referring to the A/D's though. In the case of the rigol's the most premium uses a pair of 2GS samplers which would need to be very tightly aligned for the 12 bits/4GS single channel performance, then the next step down at less than 1/2 the price offers just one of the 2GS samplers. Their latest batch of even less expensive 12 bit samplers offer only 1.25GS. So my guess is they are grading the 12bit 2GS into 3 bins. A pair of the best goes into the top model, a slightly lower performer goes in the next model down and the ones that don't meet spec at 2GS but do at 1.25 go into the low end units. It is a win win for them. And as George says, it is amazing to me they can make these things at the price point. The low end is less than a cellphone. The one I bought is just a tad more than the latest dual screen flipphones.
It would be very interesting to find the lowest priced scope that meets all needs for a mostly analog audio DIYS amateur and is no waste of money.
I have been quite happy with my 20MHz Hitachi scope, but would like to have frequency, voltage shown, as well as some auto scale function. Also, the flat case of a digital scope wold make tidy up my workplace.
Could someone point to the features that are needed and might be missing on cheap ones? I think I'm not the only one looking for such a thing for a limited budget.
I found this one and ask my self whether this could be sufficiend for analog audio around amps?
https://www.reichelt.de/digital-spe...C3Ww5R0-L60DHXniA2eBnzxqCY9llAFBoCR-IQAvD_BwE
I have been quite happy with my 20MHz Hitachi scope, but would like to have frequency, voltage shown, as well as some auto scale function. Also, the flat case of a digital scope wold make tidy up my workplace.
Could someone point to the features that are needed and might be missing on cheap ones? I think I'm not the only one looking for such a thing for a limited budget.
I found this one and ask my self whether this could be sufficiend for analog audio around amps?
https://www.reichelt.de/digital-spe...C3Ww5R0-L60DHXniA2eBnzxqCY9llAFBoCR-IQAvD_BwE
Turbowatch2
I did a quick search on this forum for you. Please see the most recent results. Read through them, there will be answers for most of your basic questions.
George
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/oscilloscope-advice-newbie.331678/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-portable-oscilloscopes-so-many-types.352373/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/cheap-oscilloscope-to-help-find-my-damn-hummmmm.363988/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...tput-power-and-square-wave-distortion.372639/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/oscilloscope-multimeter.369307/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/oscilloscope-analog-or-digital.379331/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/time-for-an-oscilloscope.383727/
I did a quick search on this forum for you. Please see the most recent results. Read through them, there will be answers for most of your basic questions.
George
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/oscilloscope-advice-newbie.331678/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-portable-oscilloscopes-so-many-types.352373/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/cheap-oscilloscope-to-help-find-my-damn-hummmmm.363988/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...tput-power-and-square-wave-distortion.372639/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/oscilloscope-multimeter.369307/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/oscilloscope-analog-or-digital.379331/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/time-for-an-oscilloscope.383727/
I have a Siglent SDS1204 X-E I went with the higher bandwidth because I also do some radio work.
One feature that I did not originally think about has come in handy is the ability to do Bode Plots.
What would take me a fair amount of time to plot manually I can do in seconds.
The more I use it the more I'm glad I finally upgraded.
That being said even a "budget" scope is a vast upgrade from my old Analog scope.
One feature that I did not originally think about has come in handy is the ability to do Bode Plots.
What would take me a fair amount of time to plot manually I can do in seconds.
The more I use it the more I'm glad I finally upgraded.
That being said even a "budget" scope is a vast upgrade from my old Analog scope.
It depends on the utility of 8 bit FFT's. On the output of an analog distortion analyzer its more than adequate. It has also worked for me with Picoscopes as a 100 MHz spectrum analyzer. It lacks the dynamic range of a real analyzer (no surprise) but is more than good enough if you are looking for obvious stuff.
However I just ordered this: Hantek 1008C PC USB 8CH: https://www.hantek.com/products/detail/13170 8 channel 12 bit 100KHz w/ FFT . Not a scope for troubleshooting audio or digital as much as a waveform display for my AP and etc. $108 at Amazon. It should arrive tomorrow. I'll share what its capable of.
I also have one of these: https://www.amazon.com/YEAPOOK-Hand...mzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc whick is quite useful and cheap! Tyhe battery + a Tek X100 probe makes it great for poking around in tube and hybrid HV circuits. If it smokes not a serious loss.
FWIW I own at last count 11 tek scopes of all types. And a Siglent 1104-XE which I use a lot.
However I just ordered this: Hantek 1008C PC USB 8CH: https://www.hantek.com/products/detail/13170 8 channel 12 bit 100KHz w/ FFT . Not a scope for troubleshooting audio or digital as much as a waveform display for my AP and etc. $108 at Amazon. It should arrive tomorrow. I'll share what its capable of.
I also have one of these: https://www.amazon.com/YEAPOOK-Hand...mzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc whick is quite useful and cheap! Tyhe battery + a Tek X100 probe makes it great for poking around in tube and hybrid HV circuits. If it smokes not a serious loss.
FWIW I own at last count 11 tek scopes of all types. And a Siglent 1104-XE which I use a lot.
I'm looking for an oscilloscope, probably used, Rigol, Siglent, Tektronix, any others? - and would appreciate some advice on specs. It's for audio amplifiers, power supplies and the like.
I thought about the Hantek PC oscilloscopes, with Sigrok software as I use Linux, but it's only available for the 6022BE, there have been reports of firmware problems, and I think a standalone unit will be easier to use.
What's desirable, and what's required?
Appreciate your thoughts.
I thought about the Hantek PC oscilloscopes, with Sigrok software as I use Linux, but it's only available for the 6022BE, there have been reports of firmware problems, and I think a standalone unit will be easier to use.
What's desirable, and what's required?
- Digital - usb data output
- Frequency - is 50MHz enough?
- Channels - 2; or 4?
- Vertical resolution - 12 bits?
- Bode plots - nice to have?
- Anything else?
- Signal generator? I have a laptop and a 24-bit DAC.
Appreciate your thoughts.
I was really dissapointed with the Hantek software. I sent it back.
You want a general purpose scope. Siglent or Rigol would be the best choice for new self contained instruments. However a lot depends on your skill set and what you are looking at. 50 MHz is more than enough for most audio troubleshooting. I rarely use more than 2 channels. Its important to know what you should see before you start. Scopes can lie and if you know what to look for a really modest instrument can help you troubleshoot.
You want a general purpose scope. Siglent or Rigol would be the best choice for new self contained instruments. However a lot depends on your skill set and what you are looking at. 50 MHz is more than enough for most audio troubleshooting. I rarely use more than 2 channels. Its important to know what you should see before you start. Scopes can lie and if you know what to look for a really modest instrument can help you troubleshoot.
Try not to make the mistake I did. I do a fair amount of digital stuff as well, and 2 channels is quickly inadequate. I got a 2ch initially but quickly discovered I needed more. SPI interfaces for example have 4 signals, and for easiest debugging, you want to see all 4 at once. But for audio so far, the 2 ch has been adequate. Another thing you have to become accustomed to is scopes (well the plugged in ones) do not float, so unlike a dvm(battery one) where you can put the two probes anywhere, on a scope, you have to put that gnd alligator on gnd.
Thanks, that's helpful.
I guess my question would be, which features are fluff I don't need, and which are going to be useful, if only occasionally.
And which can be worked around if necessary.
The trigger for this is to use Quasimodo to look at snubbers. I would also like to have a clearer view of the performance of different parts of an amp. And of course troubleshooting.
A 'better' scope doesn't seem to be any more expensive, bought secondhand, than the components I'm buying. In that sense, it's affordable and more so than they used to be.
Sounds like 4 channels are useful at times. So pay a little more and they're there.
I guess my question would be, which features are fluff I don't need, and which are going to be useful, if only occasionally.
And which can be worked around if necessary.
The trigger for this is to use Quasimodo to look at snubbers. I would also like to have a clearer view of the performance of different parts of an amp. And of course troubleshooting.
A 'better' scope doesn't seem to be any more expensive, bought secondhand, than the components I'm buying. In that sense, it's affordable and more so than they used to be.