Confused
I do not quite understand the motive of this thread to single out moderators and commerce....Are we suggesting that ordinary members and commerce have different expectation? Do we have double standard regarding COMMERCE here in diyAudio.com?
Assuming we've dealt with one moderator now are we going after the next Ordinary member that has commercial interest here as well?
We should I think to make sure we do not have double standard. Are we then ask the member to resign from membership and became a visitor status?
Best Regards,
Chris
I do not quite understand the motive of this thread to single out moderators and commerce....Are we suggesting that ordinary members and commerce have different expectation? Do we have double standard regarding COMMERCE here in diyAudio.com?
Assuming we've dealt with one moderator now are we going after the next Ordinary member that has commercial interest here as well?
We should I think to make sure we do not have double standard. Are we then ask the member to resign from membership and became a visitor status?
Best Regards,
Chris
Bas Horneman,
I am sorry you feel that way, but have you not seen the quality of the forum slipping of late? You might not think so but several members seem to feel that way.
What about the Walt Jung episode, why was someone with his experience and ability allowed to leave? There was much to be learned from him.
The reason why I started this thread is to question the motives of certain moderators and their impartiality. Judgeing by the response several members have as well, I believe as members we have that right.
Moderators need to be impartial and governed by a set of rules to avoid any confusion (So do we for that matter)
The actions of Peranders raise a lot of questions.
As for Peter I wish him well, I like him wish the forum returns to a different time where there was a more free exchange of ideas. I am glad that he is staying on as a member because we will get to see more wonderful chassis designs from him and he has always raised the bar in that department. I applaud him for doing the right thing, he has set the interests of the forum above his own.
The forum needs more people like Walt Jung as members and not run them off by some irresponsible actions of a member who also happens to be a moderator. (There's the rub)
Grataku,
What can I say............................
Sometimes I wish I was retired.
I did not want to to name names because I wanted to know how the rest of the members felt.............like I said this is more about the forum and direction that it is headed.
Regards,
Jam
I am sorry you feel that way, but have you not seen the quality of the forum slipping of late? You might not think so but several members seem to feel that way.
What about the Walt Jung episode, why was someone with his experience and ability allowed to leave? There was much to be learned from him.
The reason why I started this thread is to question the motives of certain moderators and their impartiality. Judgeing by the response several members have as well, I believe as members we have that right.
Moderators need to be impartial and governed by a set of rules to avoid any confusion (So do we for that matter)
The actions of Peranders raise a lot of questions.
As for Peter I wish him well, I like him wish the forum returns to a different time where there was a more free exchange of ideas. I am glad that he is staying on as a member because we will get to see more wonderful chassis designs from him and he has always raised the bar in that department. I applaud him for doing the right thing, he has set the interests of the forum above his own.
The forum needs more people like Walt Jung as members and not run them off by some irresponsible actions of a member who also happens to be a moderator. (There's the rub)
Grataku,
What can I say............................
Sometimes I wish I was retired.I did not want to to name names because I wanted to know how the rest of the members felt.............like I said this is more about the forum and direction that it is headed.
Regards,
Jam
EVERYONE here at diyAudio needs to be governed by a set of rules...for sure.
We don't need ANYONE run of buy some irresponsible actions. Personally I care just as much for the newbie...(maybe even more) as some guru. Newbies ask questions that guru's have forgotton they even knew..(and hence have not shared)...Newbies take avenues that guru's would not even think of ...thereby expanding horizon's.
It's the time of the year ...AA is slipping as well. ;-) Seriously it is. It'll pass....you just can't expect to get high all the time.
Note : I might be moderator..but ALL opinions are my own...and do not reflect the ownership or moderators of diyAudio. I just care for diyAudio...like you obviously do too. But every member needs to realise that diyAudio cannot be what you personally would want it to be.
there is a difference between a moderator running a business in the diysector or a member.
The moderator will not be moderated doing more or less obvios advertismend for his product. The moderator will be in an interest conflict between selling products and moderating threads about his products, criticism on it, criticism on hie products philosphie. Also his status does keep members from doing peer review on what the moderator shows us. This forum is not about advertisment but about getting critics, hints, advice what you made wrong or may do better. A seller has always a problem if told he does not perfectly right, see for example zobel and chipamps discussion. A member should be happy if told he may be wrong and what may improve his circuit. Even if the advice was not valid it gives an idea from outside your own mindes circle. You can watch here what happens with critics like that done on moderators circuits: you are beaten to death. You are threatened more and more like an outlaw, one of "Jockos gang" ...
I watch some moderators are pretty narcistic here.
I have nothing against Peter or Per-Anders, they do provide interesting information. I hope they will do in future also. But i do think Peter makes pretty boxes and falls in love with expensive resistors, so his well developed ability of autosuggestion makes him think the part "sound better" Thats not exactly diyaudio but diyautosuggestion and diycasesbuilding. The reason why Peter stresses these things so much i see in his products image. It is important to build up his image to be enabled to sell chipamps. This is not necessarily done consciously, its the way humans work.
Per Anders my impression is does know a lot about his circuits and falls in love with tidy professional looking PCBs. This is diyPCB design but not diyaudio... The reason why Per stresses these things so much i see in his products image. It is important to build up his products image to be enabled to sell PCBs. This is not necessarily done consciously, its the way humans work.
But they both set the standarts on this board, and thus the truth on the board is more and more towards expensive,resistors, no brain ciruits, copper blocks and pretty cases are audiophile, or professional multilayer SMD silkscreen whatever PCBs are audiophile. This because of the abnormal level of influence of what moderators status members do post.
I know i can learn of lot from both of them, from the one about case building and marketing strategie, from the other about elekctronics and PCB design. But that is not all and maybe not the most important part of diyaudio. Sadly the other parts come short since the moderators influence on truthbuilding is more pronounced that the influence of the ones who ask questions and those who are able to answer with real knowledge behind.
Please don´t take it personal, i don´t say its because you act wrong everyone would act this way. Its because people do percive a posting from a moderator in another way than from another memeber or "outlaw". Your status makes criticism, doubts and peer review difficult.
The moderator will not be moderated doing more or less obvios advertismend for his product. The moderator will be in an interest conflict between selling products and moderating threads about his products, criticism on it, criticism on hie products philosphie. Also his status does keep members from doing peer review on what the moderator shows us. This forum is not about advertisment but about getting critics, hints, advice what you made wrong or may do better. A seller has always a problem if told he does not perfectly right, see for example zobel and chipamps discussion. A member should be happy if told he may be wrong and what may improve his circuit. Even if the advice was not valid it gives an idea from outside your own mindes circle. You can watch here what happens with critics like that done on moderators circuits: you are beaten to death. You are threatened more and more like an outlaw, one of "Jockos gang" ...
I watch some moderators are pretty narcistic here.
I have nothing against Peter or Per-Anders, they do provide interesting information. I hope they will do in future also. But i do think Peter makes pretty boxes and falls in love with expensive resistors, so his well developed ability of autosuggestion makes him think the part "sound better" Thats not exactly diyaudio but diyautosuggestion and diycasesbuilding. The reason why Peter stresses these things so much i see in his products image. It is important to build up his image to be enabled to sell chipamps. This is not necessarily done consciously, its the way humans work.
Per Anders my impression is does know a lot about his circuits and falls in love with tidy professional looking PCBs. This is diyPCB design but not diyaudio... The reason why Per stresses these things so much i see in his products image. It is important to build up his products image to be enabled to sell PCBs. This is not necessarily done consciously, its the way humans work.
But they both set the standarts on this board, and thus the truth on the board is more and more towards expensive,resistors, no brain ciruits, copper blocks and pretty cases are audiophile, or professional multilayer SMD silkscreen whatever PCBs are audiophile. This because of the abnormal level of influence of what moderators status members do post.
I know i can learn of lot from both of them, from the one about case building and marketing strategie, from the other about elekctronics and PCB design. But that is not all and maybe not the most important part of diyaudio. Sadly the other parts come short since the moderators influence on truthbuilding is more pronounced that the influence of the ones who ask questions and those who are able to answer with real knowledge behind.
Please don´t take it personal, i don´t say its because you act wrong everyone would act this way. Its because people do percive a posting from a moderator in another way than from another memeber or "outlaw". Your status makes criticism, doubts and peer review difficult.
I have not made up my mind what I think of moderators
running businesses in general, but if a moderator is running
a business and is moderating a thread where his/her products
are discussed, then I think it should be obvious for that
moderator to ask some other moderator to moderate that
thread. Doesn't every subforum have at least two permanent
moderators assigned to it?
While I am, as I said before, also sorry that Walt Jung left
the forum, maybe we should try to think positively too. He
did after all find his way here (by recommendation, I think)
and obviously found it interesting enough to spend some
time here. We have also attracted people like John Curl,
Nelson Pass, Jonathan Carr and Scott Wurcer, who all seem
to have found the forum good enough to stay on so far, some
of them for several years. We can't win them all, so maybe
it is actually a good score for the forum that so few of big guys
have left.
running businesses in general, but if a moderator is running
a business and is moderating a thread where his/her products
are discussed, then I think it should be obvious for that
moderator to ask some other moderator to moderate that
thread. Doesn't every subforum have at least two permanent
moderators assigned to it?
While I am, as I said before, also sorry that Walt Jung left
the forum, maybe we should try to think positively too. He
did after all find his way here (by recommendation, I think)
and obviously found it interesting enough to spend some
time here. We have also attracted people like John Curl,
Nelson Pass, Jonathan Carr and Scott Wurcer, who all seem
to have found the forum good enough to stay on so far, some
of them for several years. We can't win them all, so maybe
it is actually a good score for the forum that so few of big guys
have left.
Actually Jam, that's kind of BS. I would have argued to opposite, if nothing else, at the very least it cuts both ways.
When Peter shows something commercial here he undergoes a scrutiny that could be potentially affecting his business in a negative way, in most cases one is better off keeping quiet and let the marketer do the marketing and the reviewers do their reviewing.
All of this is without considering the personality issues of exposing oneself to the public (didn't work out too well for a notable danish designer that hung out here for awhile, did it?)
Peter is a very likable guy, whether I agree with his implementations and methods, everything he does is open source, he defends his products yes but IMO he does it in a way that keeps his role as member, moderator and commercial builder. I would agree that this is an exceptional case.
When Peter shows something commercial here he undergoes a scrutiny that could be potentially affecting his business in a negative way, in most cases one is better off keeping quiet and let the marketer do the marketing and the reviewers do their reviewing.
All of this is without considering the personality issues of exposing oneself to the public (didn't work out too well for a notable danish designer that hung out here for awhile, did it?)
Peter is a very likable guy, whether I agree with his implementations and methods, everything he does is open source, he defends his products yes but IMO he does it in a way that keeps his role as member, moderator and commercial builder. I would agree that this is an exceptional case.
till said:
I'm a newcomer here, but I don't see the big problem with commerce and moderators. What 's implied here is that the moderator's opinions carry more weight. In the threads I have read, the moderators in question have been part of a vigorous give and take (sometimes too vigorous, in my view) regarding their ideas. If the moderators were supressing criticism of their own posts, now THAT would be a big problem. If someone has evidence of such, they should cite it directly.
What I have seen on this and any other forum where opinions differ and people care greatly about the subject, is unecessarily harsh wording of posts in which the discussion turns personal. If I were to suggest change, it's that I'd like to see the moderators encourage posters to remove as much of the emotional content of messages as possible - a tall order and realistically not perfectly achievable. I think the commerce issue is not a big problem presently (I don't need someone to look out for me in this regard), but the moderators should be most careful not to engage in discussion that in any way becomes personal.
Some advice for Peter regarding his resignation: Don't blow your severence check on a big audio purchase or big fancy car.
I for one and glad that the forum is made possible, at no cost to me, by the owners and moderators.
Sheldon
I dont contribute much here - not much at all, but this site has been my home since I found it.
I think everyone would agree that Peter is an asset to the board.
I also think that the whole issue with the Gainclone chassis Group Buy could have been avoided by:
1. Not calling it a "Group Buy" (the items were manufactured specifically for sale, at least from what I can tell)
2. Sticking it in the Trading Post
(maybe now that he is a Member, the thread should be moved?...just a thought, but then again, that would be like.... )
Peter, by you turning in your badge, you won't have to defend your actions any longer (at least as a Mod). I just hope what has happened wont send you away.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually Members who come here for commerce, or advertise their products get "moderated", except for the moderators and some Member-exceptions.
I think everyone would agree that Peter is an asset to the board.
I also think that the whole issue with the Gainclone chassis Group Buy could have been avoided by:
1. Not calling it a "Group Buy" (the items were manufactured specifically for sale, at least from what I can tell)
2. Sticking it in the Trading Post
(maybe now that he is a Member, the thread should be moved?...just a thought, but then again, that would be like....
)Peter, by you turning in your badge, you won't have to defend your actions any longer (at least as a Mod). I just hope what has happened wont send you away.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually Members who come here for commerce, or advertise their products get "moderated", except for the moderators and some Member-exceptions.
I'm sorry, Dave.....
But I can not accept your view point.
So....we should blame Audio Amateur for using Walt's name it the first place?
No.....we should blame the guilty...who...despite repeated attempts.......did not abide Walt's wishes. Which, while some may say was petty, it certainly was not outlandish.
Now......if P-A had told someone something, and they did not abide by his wishes, do you think that it would be ok?
I think that I know the answer.
Jocko
But I can not accept your view point.
So....we should blame Audio Amateur for using Walt's name it the first place?
No.....we should blame the guilty...who...despite repeated attempts.......did not abide Walt's wishes. Which, while some may say was petty, it certainly was not outlandish.
Now......if P-A had told someone something, and they did not abide by his wishes, do you think that it would be ok?
I think that I know the answer.
Jocko
So, Bas.....you are saying.....
That if I made something BIG happen, like say......a group buy of my I/V stage PCB......or one of the other many circuit ideas that are somewhere in my fading memory.........that you guys would want me for a moderator???
I would certainly hope not!
Yeah, sounds kinda silly, doesn't it.
Talk about teasing the 800 pound gorilla in the monkey house.............
Jocko
That if I made something BIG happen, like say......a group buy of my I/V stage PCB......or one of the other many circuit ideas that are somewhere in my fading memory.........that you guys would want me for a moderator???
I would certainly hope not!
Yeah, sounds kinda silly, doesn't it.
Talk about teasing the 800 pound gorilla in the monkey house.............
Jocko
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