I may not be an active posting member but I consider myself a serious member of this forum. I read this forum on a near daily basis and the reason why I usually have nothing to post is because the members here are fantastic with providing information to each other.
This thread has begun to get very personal and as it touches an area dear to the moderators, it has not received any moderation at all.
Of the few moderators who do have commercial interests, I do not think they have abused their positions as moderators to aid their businesses. Anyone can mention/post links to their "projects" and even hype it up. It is up to the reader then (and perhaps using knowledge gained from this forum) to decide if he wishes to buy. There was no misrepresentation of the product for sale.
A conflict of interest arises when a moderator chooses not to moderate or perhaps close/delete a thread/post (or not) because it may adversely affect his/her business. Only one such case occured (that I know of) and that should not give rise to the statement that moderators should not have related commerce.
If one must find fault with the moderators, perhaps it can be that they do not moderate enough and instead in some cases, add fuel to threads of questionable value.
Happy DIY-ing.
This thread has begun to get very personal and as it touches an area dear to the moderators, it has not received any moderation at all.
Of the few moderators who do have commercial interests, I do not think they have abused their positions as moderators to aid their businesses. Anyone can mention/post links to their "projects" and even hype it up. It is up to the reader then (and perhaps using knowledge gained from this forum) to decide if he wishes to buy. There was no misrepresentation of the product for sale.
A conflict of interest arises when a moderator chooses not to moderate or perhaps close/delete a thread/post (or not) because it may adversely affect his/her business. Only one such case occured (that I know of) and that should not give rise to the statement that moderators should not have related commerce.
If one must find fault with the moderators, perhaps it can be that they do not moderate enough and instead in some cases, add fuel to threads of questionable value.
Happy DIY-ing.
This thread has been in the works for a while and the pressure was building up between the promotion of Per-Anders to moderator, his continuos feud with Fred, Jam, Jocko and company, Peter pushing the envelope with commercial offerings and the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer 
I think it was a little disingenuous of Jam to be so generic when we all knew the main subjects were PerAnders and Peter.
Come on Jam,
Peter selling gainclones, PerAnders selling 15 boards that he copied from Walt Jung which in turn translated from a tube circuit developed at MIT in the 50's. I know it gives this site a bad rep, an appearence of impropriety and it sucks too but what can you do? Life's a biatch and then you die.
First and foremost as far as I have seen nobody has forced anyone to buy anything. We are all big boys and girls.
By your own admission you guys are so advanced you are using parts the rest of us will be using in 10 years and doing things we have no clue are even possible. Why are you so threatened? What's the big deal? You ain't gonna share anything so you ain't gonna loose nothing.
Lastly, although I think I rather read Walt Jung books than dealing with the guy on a direct level, I was sorry to see Walt leave and I wish him best of luck in his future endeavors.
I leave with the distinct feeling that sooner rather than later Walt would have gotten pi$$y at something or at someone on this site and would have left anyway.
I think it was a little disingenuous of Jam to be so generic when we all knew the main subjects were PerAnders and Peter.
Come on Jam,
Peter selling gainclones, PerAnders selling 15 boards that he copied from Walt Jung which in turn translated from a tube circuit developed at MIT in the 50's. I know it gives this site a bad rep, an appearence of impropriety and it sucks too but what can you do? Life's a biatch and then you die.
First and foremost as far as I have seen nobody has forced anyone to buy anything. We are all big boys and girls.
By your own admission you guys are so advanced you are using parts the rest of us will be using in 10 years and doing things we have no clue are even possible. Why are you so threatened? What's the big deal? You ain't gonna share anything so you ain't gonna loose nothing.
Lastly, although I think I rather read Walt Jung books than dealing with the guy on a direct level, I was sorry to see Walt leave and I wish him best of luck in his future endeavors.
I leave with the distinct feeling that sooner rather than later Walt would have gotten pi$$y at something or at someone on this site and would have left anyway.
"poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer "
In real life, I'm an indusrial cost accountant, so based on that experience I would opine that PA and PD are a lot more likely to get poorer than richer by their endevors. To put it bluntly, it's a damn tough business they are getting into it will take balls and a lot of luck just to keep food on the table if their sole livelyhood is going to be what we see on their websites.
Regardless of whether they should be moderators or not or whatever, no one should be entertaining fantasies that these guys are capitalist moguls.
In real life, I'm an indusrial cost accountant, so based on that experience I would opine that PA and PD are a lot more likely to get poorer than richer by their endevors. To put it bluntly, it's a damn tough business they are getting into it will take balls and a lot of luck just to keep food on the table if their sole livelyhood is going to be what we see on their websites.
Regardless of whether they should be moderators or not or whatever, no one should be entertaining fantasies that these guys are capitalist moguls.
So you are the guy that's always stopping my PO's?
Seriously, that was just a piece of sillyness.
Peter is doing what he wants to do in his life, to me PerAnders is just the inexplicable Swede and I have no idea of what he's doing or how much money he's making. In both cases I don't care. I like Peter and I consider him a friend.
Fred Jam and Jocko are either retired or self employed and have alot of free time on their hands. Sometimes they give us a piece of their infinite wisdom, most of the time they are using this site either as a solitaire chess game or as an experiment in which an invisible plexiglas barrier is moved in the rat cage and the results are observed. I like'em all.
============================================
"...that's just the nature of democracy. Sometimes pure politics enters into the rhetoric."
--George W. Bush, Crawford, Tx., August 8, 2003
Seriously, that was just a piece of sillyness.
Peter is doing what he wants to do in his life, to me PerAnders is just the inexplicable Swede and I have no idea of what he's doing or how much money he's making. In both cases I don't care. I like Peter and I consider him a friend.
Fred Jam and Jocko are either retired or self employed and have alot of free time on their hands. Sometimes they give us a piece of their infinite wisdom, most of the time they are using this site either as a solitaire chess game or as an experiment in which an invisible plexiglas barrier is moved in the rat cage and the results are observed. I like'em all.
============================================
"...that's just the nature of democracy. Sometimes pure politics enters into the rhetoric."
--George W. Bush, Crawford, Tx., August 8, 2003
I'll dive in here, right or wrong, hope it offends no one and is constructive......
A long time ago I wrote about posters who profit from this forum. I'll here offer some of the relevant stuff for appraisal.
1. This forum is for the DIY community, and anyone on the fringes. The DIY community includes enthusiasts, designers, commercial operators, and moderators. All are people, all have a place under the sun at DIYAudio, and all should be tolerated with dignity and patience.
2. Even though I am a manufacturer (of sorts!), I too am a DIY enthusiast and my market is for DIYers. This forum puts me in contact with what my market is thinking. This is important to me, and sometimes I can help others. Besides, I might learn something! It goes without saying this applies to everyone here; a little give and take.
3. Very few DIY people, with some notable and revered exceptions here, can achieve the technical mastery necessary to actually research, productionize and market the polished industrial designs the retail market demands. This is not a put down; it's just that unless you work daily in the commercial environment it is unlikely you will reach the requisite levels of expertise, and in any event most high end gear is designed by teams, not individuals. It therefore follows that vendors and accomplished designers, with uncounted decades of experience, should be made very welcome, particularly when they are clearly prepared to follow a few obvious ethics about pushing their own barrow. I don't believe anyone here would actively attempt to block posts from Nelson or Jonathan Carr; these men are masters in their field, and frankly, their posts are so germane and masterful they should rightly be regarded as one of the reasons we come here. Make these people welcome, for if you do not, you lose valuable industry insights which enrich your understanding of the technology you practice as a hobbyist. This makes the departure of Walt, regardless of his thin skin, a great pity. To a greater or lesser extent, this comment applies to anyone who has a story to tell, a product to offer, or a moderating role to abide by. You be the judge; you neither have to read, nor to listen, nor to buy. We're all big boys, caveat emptor..........
4. There is a perception here that anything of technical ambiguity must be fiercely debated with guns drawn. This creates enmity, and attracts personal slanging, which very quickly destroys the thread and demeans both the personalities involved and the knowledge they purvey. Why does a differing opinion draw outraged comments of 'Idiot!! Fool!! Don't you know Ohm's Law!!' etc etc. We have seen this here countless times. Don't people realize that any credits they earn for high intelligence are immediately discounted for their infantile behaviour? It does not help that highly technical people are often religious zealots, and often unable to put their point subtly, all the more when it is controversial. Sometimes maturity and salesmanship is required, and at our age (I speak for those over forty, Effendi.....) we really should make the required effort.
5. I was appalled when Walt Jung left. I would be doubly appalled if Jocko or Fred left. I'll put up with a great deal to learn something, although I admit to enjoying the Texan humor, and recognize a playful taunt when I see it. It is almost as though some strive to take these posts too seriously. Please guys, calm down, be patient, and stay cool......
6. There is a spectacular difference between marketing and advertising. Nelson and Jonathan do wonders for their marketing by being available on this forum; neither is ever seen here trying to make a sale. A little goodwill is very different to the here and now pressure of advertizing, which is certainly objectionable in this forum, from anyone. I should say that nothing I've seen from any moderator has ever affronted my sense of commercial ethics.
7. Lastly, the sums of money being talked of here are trifling. A few pcbs here, a kit there, etc, this pales into insignificance compared to a CEO's salary at WorldCom!! None of the people here are laughing all the way to the Bank, least of all Peter Daniel or Per-Anders Sjostrom, and frankly, it's none of my business if they did, and I really don't much mind either way. I value their input regardless, and the forum would be the poorer if they left.
Great discussion, guys, thanks for the bandwidth.......
Cheers,
Hugh
A long time ago I wrote about posters who profit from this forum. I'll here offer some of the relevant stuff for appraisal.
1. This forum is for the DIY community, and anyone on the fringes. The DIY community includes enthusiasts, designers, commercial operators, and moderators. All are people, all have a place under the sun at DIYAudio, and all should be tolerated with dignity and patience.
2. Even though I am a manufacturer (of sorts!), I too am a DIY enthusiast and my market is for DIYers. This forum puts me in contact with what my market is thinking. This is important to me, and sometimes I can help others. Besides, I might learn something! It goes without saying this applies to everyone here; a little give and take.
3. Very few DIY people, with some notable and revered exceptions here, can achieve the technical mastery necessary to actually research, productionize and market the polished industrial designs the retail market demands. This is not a put down; it's just that unless you work daily in the commercial environment it is unlikely you will reach the requisite levels of expertise, and in any event most high end gear is designed by teams, not individuals. It therefore follows that vendors and accomplished designers, with uncounted decades of experience, should be made very welcome, particularly when they are clearly prepared to follow a few obvious ethics about pushing their own barrow. I don't believe anyone here would actively attempt to block posts from Nelson or Jonathan Carr; these men are masters in their field, and frankly, their posts are so germane and masterful they should rightly be regarded as one of the reasons we come here. Make these people welcome, for if you do not, you lose valuable industry insights which enrich your understanding of the technology you practice as a hobbyist. This makes the departure of Walt, regardless of his thin skin, a great pity. To a greater or lesser extent, this comment applies to anyone who has a story to tell, a product to offer, or a moderating role to abide by. You be the judge; you neither have to read, nor to listen, nor to buy. We're all big boys, caveat emptor..........
4. There is a perception here that anything of technical ambiguity must be fiercely debated with guns drawn. This creates enmity, and attracts personal slanging, which very quickly destroys the thread and demeans both the personalities involved and the knowledge they purvey. Why does a differing opinion draw outraged comments of 'Idiot!! Fool!! Don't you know Ohm's Law!!' etc etc. We have seen this here countless times. Don't people realize that any credits they earn for high intelligence are immediately discounted for their infantile behaviour? It does not help that highly technical people are often religious zealots, and often unable to put their point subtly, all the more when it is controversial. Sometimes maturity and salesmanship is required, and at our age (I speak for those over forty, Effendi.....) we really should make the required effort.
5. I was appalled when Walt Jung left. I would be doubly appalled if Jocko or Fred left. I'll put up with a great deal to learn something, although I admit to enjoying the Texan humor, and recognize a playful taunt when I see it. It is almost as though some strive to take these posts too seriously. Please guys, calm down, be patient, and stay cool......
6. There is a spectacular difference between marketing and advertising. Nelson and Jonathan do wonders for their marketing by being available on this forum; neither is ever seen here trying to make a sale. A little goodwill is very different to the here and now pressure of advertizing, which is certainly objectionable in this forum, from anyone. I should say that nothing I've seen from any moderator has ever affronted my sense of commercial ethics.
7. Lastly, the sums of money being talked of here are trifling. A few pcbs here, a kit there, etc, this pales into insignificance compared to a CEO's salary at WorldCom!! None of the people here are laughing all the way to the Bank, least of all Peter Daniel or Per-Anders Sjostrom, and frankly, it's none of my business if they did, and I really don't much mind either way. I value their input regardless, and the forum would be the poorer if they left.
Great discussion, guys, thanks for the bandwidth.......
Cheers,
Hugh
Do I have to spell it out.....?
C-H-E-E-S-E A-N-D O-N-I-O-N-S.
Walt told P-A not to use his name with his PCB. No, he didn't listen, and more than once.
OK.....using your logic the Marconi and de Forrest estates should tell us all to cease and desist. Give me a break. We were subjected to countless "collecting the facts" postings, when all along anyone who wasn't blind knew that P-A was picking all of our brains for his silly commercial endeavour.
Which probably never will make him rich. Which is besides the point.
So how does that excuse the lack of common courtesy of ignoring someone's wish not to be associated with said endeavour?
So.....if making that reg work is so easy because it was adapted from prior art.......
Howcum you don't have one for sale.....so we can poke sticks at you instead?
Probably because it isn't as easy as you think. I am sure the guys who did all the leg work will be willing to bend over backwards now to help you.
Jocko
C-H-E-E-S-E A-N-D O-N-I-O-N-S.
Walt told P-A not to use his name with his PCB. No, he didn't listen, and more than once.
OK.....using your logic the Marconi and de Forrest estates should tell us all to cease and desist. Give me a break. We were subjected to countless "collecting the facts" postings, when all along anyone who wasn't blind knew that P-A was picking all of our brains for his silly commercial endeavour.
Which probably never will make him rich. Which is besides the point.
So how does that excuse the lack of common courtesy of ignoring someone's wish not to be associated with said endeavour?
So.....if making that reg work is so easy because it was adapted from prior art.......
Howcum you don't have one for sale.....so we can poke sticks at you instead?
Probably because it isn't as easy as you think. I am sure the guys who did all the leg work will be willing to bend over backwards now to help you.
Jocko
grataku said:
Do you say that Walt Jung is a difficult person or that the forum
is so bad that any professional like Walt wouldn't stand it in
the long run? Both interpretations seem possible to me, so I
think you should clear out if you are attacking Walt, who is no
longer a member, or if you are talking negatively about the forum.
Whatever, I am also very sorry that Walt left us so quickly and
if the reason is what Jocko hinted at, then it is even sadder.
Peter Daniel said:
Peter, I think you are very unfair now. Although I don't remember
many of Maguras postings explicitly, he has definitely posted a
lot of helpful and useful information. Especially he has posted
advice on metalworking, which he seem to be skilled in. Since
your business is to a large extent based on your own
metalworking skills for cases, I hope your attack here is not
a sign of conflict of interest.
Re: Do I have to spell it out.....?
Part of the problem here is that Audio Amateur, a long, long time ago, published an article that established the name Walt Jung Regulator....
Not that i'm defending P-A, but the name was well established long before P-A started the thread.
dave
Jocko Homo said:
Part of the problem here is that Audio Amateur, a long, long time ago, published an article that established the name Walt Jung Regulator....
Not that i'm defending P-A, but the name was well established long before P-A started the thread.
dave
And on the subject of Peter Daniel retiring as a moderator:
I find this a sad thing, it was i who nominated PD as a mod, and he served well, and provided invaluable in-sight into situations that helped the entire mod crew to sort a situation.
But as Peter has often shown in the past, he puts the forum ahead of himself, he retires because he thinks it is in the best interests of the forum...
I am sure we will still see Peter's positive influences, and hopefully free of the chores of moderation (SY is right when he says we are closer to janitor), he can concentrate more on churning out more of his inspirational works of art.
dave
I find this a sad thing, it was i who nominated PD as a mod, and he served well, and provided invaluable in-sight into situations that helped the entire mod crew to sort a situation.
But as Peter has often shown in the past, he puts the forum ahead of himself, he retires because he thinks it is in the best interests of the forum...
I am sure we will still see Peter's positive influences, and hopefully free of the chores of moderation (SY is right when he says we are closer to janitor), he can concentrate more on churning out more of his inspirational works of art.
dave
ONE of the reasons moderators are chosen...I think (Apart from myself) are chosen because they are people that act or make things happen
For example.
Peter Daniel - With his Gainclone enclosure groupbuy,
Roddayama - Cardas Groupbuy,
Ace3000_1 - With his excellent projector,
PA with the superreg,
ALW + friends super regulator EDIT: peranders
None have been in their own interest...(If you make up a balance sheet of time and efforts spent) People like Peter Daniel GIVE more to diyAudio than anyone who has seemed fit to notice a conflict of interest.
Jam posted :
It does? I don't think it is up to you or even the moderators to decide what diyAudio should be!
You are obviously in your right to question a perceived conflict of interest. But that conflict of interest is based on your own idea of what diyAudio should be. The general idea is actually that you are allowed to sell your stuff...If you generally contribute to the well being of diyAudio by being an active positive poster. Just yesterday I passed a FIRST post of a guy that was willing to sell some tripath chips...But since it was as a response to a question..I let it go. (Mistake? Maybe...but where there are humans there will be mistakes)
In the end it is a living breathing thing and the moderators (janitors) just try to keep things RELATIVELY clean of porn/copyright infringements and commercialism without participation, personal insults and dangerous technical advice. As such moderation is a blunt instrument and things sometimes do get damaged.
I for one am VERY dissapointed that Peter has decided to leave the mod team. It feels like.."This is not happening, let me wake up!"
For example.
Peter Daniel - With his Gainclone enclosure groupbuy,
Roddayama - Cardas Groupbuy,
Ace3000_1 - With his excellent projector,
PA with the superreg,
ALW + friends super regulator EDIT: peranders
None have been in their own interest...(If you make up a balance sheet of time and efforts spent) People like Peter Daniel GIVE more to diyAudio than anyone who has seemed fit to notice a conflict of interest.
Jam posted :
It does? I don't think it is up to you or even the moderators to decide what diyAudio should be!
You are obviously in your right to question a perceived conflict of interest. But that conflict of interest is based on your own idea of what diyAudio should be. The general idea is actually that you are allowed to sell your stuff...If you generally contribute to the well being of diyAudio by being an active positive poster. Just yesterday I passed a FIRST post of a guy that was willing to sell some tripath chips...But since it was as a response to a question..I let it go. (Mistake? Maybe...but where there are humans there will be mistakes)
In the end it is a living breathing thing and the moderators (janitors) just try to keep things RELATIVELY clean of porn/copyright infringements and commercialism without participation, personal insults and dangerous technical advice. As such moderation is a blunt instrument and things sometimes do get damaged.
The moderators believe it or not. One of the very first things that struck me when I got to the moderator section...is how everyone speaks his mind, without any hesitation. And yes also on possible conflicts of interest.
None specified. The mods are asked to put forward a list of names of the people they think fit. After a discussion a few get asked to join.
I for one am VERY dissapointed that Peter has decided to leave the mod team. It feels like.."This is not happening, let me wake up!"
Blood-letting
Peter and I had a couple of ding-dongs in the past, and am still on completely different audio wavelengths, however, I am very sorry to see him resign.
On another day, in another thread, it may not have been possible to wind him up, as happened, to the point where he tripped.
For those who want zero enterprise at diyAudio, I have to inform you that this small blood-letting event will be counter-productive.
DiyAudio goes on, with or without Peter. It has great inertia, caused by the weight of it's membership. Some may imagine that the Mod's are the controlling force: not so. As SY points out, Mod's just clean up.
Peter and I had a couple of ding-dongs in the past, and am still on completely different audio wavelengths, however, I am very sorry to see him resign.
On another day, in another thread, it may not have been possible to wind him up, as happened, to the point where he tripped.
For those who want zero enterprise at diyAudio, I have to inform you that this small blood-letting event will be counter-productive.
DiyAudio goes on, with or without Peter. It has great inertia, caused by the weight of it's membership. Some may imagine that the Mod's are the controlling force: not so. As SY points out, Mod's just clean up.
who would be that gang? there are not 2 political partys beeing enemys on this board. As i never had real world contact with any memeber, there is no personal conflict. And no gangs. You need to get used Jocko "and his gang" (maybe fred) speak very directly. You have to take the hard words they say, but you can also tell them what you think. You have to take this even if you are moderator, and don´t react by abusing moderators rights.
I hope so. The problem with a moderator posting some information, especially about his product, is, except people like jocko & fred don´t post critcism or ask questions. BECAUSE the poster was a moderator. There is an unscientific tendency to put everything a mod says as axiomatic truth. I think we AND Peter will profit more from discussion about his ideas without him beeing a moderator. Looking forward for some hopefully constructive fights, Peter.
For moderation style: the moderators job SY did so far in the Bush-idiot thread was good moderation for me.
One of the counter-productivest mistakes made on this board so far was what you did with halojoy.
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