Fred, why is that you never comment on BrianGT or ALW's activities? Their amount of money invovled is rather much but I don't care how much of this is profit and which persons get it. I have no problem with it but it seems that you are very personal in this. We know what you think, at least I do.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=400722#post400722
"I will not say anything"....... did you say, Fred.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=400722#post400722
"I will not say anything"....... did you say, Fred.
Fred Dieckmann said:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=405991#post405991
What can I say that says it any better than this? How much talkiing about it are the people in charge going to do, before they do something about it............... Where is Jason on this issue? Does he have no opinion on the matter?
Fred
You are hitting your head against a brick wall (there must be an emoticon for this but I can't be bothered to find it).
Surely you know by now that moderators can plug their products without fear of recrimination or retribution.
The forum is degenerating (without the help of gratuitous images) and I doubt there is anything you can do about it.
Geoff
I have........ and will elaborate.
"Fred, why is that you never comment on BrianGT or ALW's activities? "
I have......... and you know it. AWL has been very careful not exploit the forum to sell his products. I still have very mixed emotions on the concept of group buys. I would feel much better if the products for sale in group buys were subject to constraints that any product who's sales are linked to the forum. AWL was not the one to initiate a group buy on the forum for his PCB's as I recall and the process got started because demand for the boards was greater than his time available to support the demand from the forum. Andrew has contributed a large amount of technical information to the forum and I can't ever recall him trolling the forum trying to get an idea of what would sell by using what we call Guerrilla marketing. It is really interesting that you would mention him after trying to sell a power supply board based in a large part on his work. A project that you ran a lengthy thread to gather help and information on designing, rather than presenting a design based on work of your own, ( and even if it is not work of your own, since much engineering design is based improving of the state of the art and existing designs, do you have to be so blatant about the fact that you are relying on help from the same forum which you are trying to use as a customer base?) You have to wonder about someone using the same resource for marketing surveys, design assistance, and customer base. As they use to say........ nice work if you can get it.
Mentioning BrianGT is interesting since I stayed out of that until you submitted a post wondering why I had nothing to say about that project. Being stupid enough to offer a few recommendations......... I find myself in the middle of a fake controversy manufactured by another moderator trying to use the forum to promote his products and turn a lack of circuit understanding into some kind of keen insight into amplifiers that engineers "just don't get." This is exactly the same kind of snake oil techno-babble that gives high end audio a bad name. Maybe a little research to see what kind of claims will fly in the commercial audio market?. Brian has donated a pretty healthy sum of money to the forum from his chip amp efforts. I wonder how long he will want to subsidize the free loaders that are now even complaining about him. Is there a similar saying in Sweden to DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU?
P-A, I know you are not stupid.......... but perhaps the members of the forum are about 50 times smarter than you think they are.
"Fred, why is that you never comment on BrianGT or ALW's activities? "
I have......... and you know it. AWL has been very careful not exploit the forum to sell his products. I still have very mixed emotions on the concept of group buys. I would feel much better if the products for sale in group buys were subject to constraints that any product who's sales are linked to the forum. AWL was not the one to initiate a group buy on the forum for his PCB's as I recall and the process got started because demand for the boards was greater than his time available to support the demand from the forum. Andrew has contributed a large amount of technical information to the forum and I can't ever recall him trolling the forum trying to get an idea of what would sell by using what we call Guerrilla marketing. It is really interesting that you would mention him after trying to sell a power supply board based in a large part on his work. A project that you ran a lengthy thread to gather help and information on designing, rather than presenting a design based on work of your own, ( and even if it is not work of your own, since much engineering design is based improving of the state of the art and existing designs, do you have to be so blatant about the fact that you are relying on help from the same forum which you are trying to use as a customer base?) You have to wonder about someone using the same resource for marketing surveys, design assistance, and customer base. As they use to say........ nice work if you can get it.
Mentioning BrianGT is interesting since I stayed out of that until you submitted a post wondering why I had nothing to say about that project. Being stupid enough to offer a few recommendations......... I find myself in the middle of a fake controversy manufactured by another moderator trying to use the forum to promote his products and turn a lack of circuit understanding into some kind of keen insight into amplifiers that engineers "just don't get." This is exactly the same kind of snake oil techno-babble that gives high end audio a bad name. Maybe a little research to see what kind of claims will fly in the commercial audio market?. Brian has donated a pretty healthy sum of money to the forum from his chip amp efforts. I wonder how long he will want to subsidize the free loaders that are now even complaining about him. Is there a similar saying in Sweden to DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU?
P-A, I know you are not stupid.......... but perhaps the members of the forum are about 50 times smarter than you think they are.
Hi,
So do I...
I have nothing against the concept of powerbuys as such provided:
- it's organized/suggested by someone that doesn't offer a groupbuy for his own product, be that person running a business or not, moderator or ordinary member alike.
-it's clear that interest from fellow members is shown, they insist on having it organised, not the manufacturer/person offering it and that it's not the result of, no matter how subtle, pushing of the product.
-if a member or several members question the morality of the groupbuy it should be stopped or at the very least kept out of the forum.
Probably plenty more to say but feeling kind of braindead tonight...
An example of a good groupbuy IMO is the one organized regularly by Roddyama.
Totally impartial and just doing it to do fellow members a favour...
I'm sure there are other examples around, this is just one that immediately comes to mind.
Cheers,
So do I...
I have nothing against the concept of powerbuys as such provided:
- it's organized/suggested by someone that doesn't offer a groupbuy for his own product, be that person running a business or not, moderator or ordinary member alike.
-it's clear that interest from fellow members is shown, they insist on having it organised, not the manufacturer/person offering it and that it's not the result of, no matter how subtle, pushing of the product.
-if a member or several members question the morality of the groupbuy it should be stopped or at the very least kept out of the forum.
Probably plenty more to say but feeling kind of braindead tonight...
An example of a good groupbuy IMO is the one organized regularly by Roddyama.
Totally impartial and just doing it to do fellow members a favour...
I'm sure there are other examples around, this is just one that immediately comes to mind.
Cheers,
the example is
NP
no other person has been able to be so fruitful to this forum while running a business with similar interest, while giving no one even the slightest feeling of feelling pushed into buying products from his company.
I think, that this approach is an example of how things could be done.
And I am seriously thingking of buying some NP amp pretty soon!
I sell stuff on ebay, sometimes for video purposes and have received quite a # of members in my paypal account.
I have always given them a substantial discount.
However I also think that any kind of commercial activity could be sidelined into a different location such as "trade and...."
I strongly suggest to keep the forums clean by posting commercial info in a separate box!
J-P
NP
no other person has been able to be so fruitful to this forum while running a business with similar interest, while giving no one even the slightest feeling of feelling pushed into buying products from his company.
I think, that this approach is an example of how things could be done.
And I am seriously thingking of buying some NP amp pretty soon!
I sell stuff on ebay, sometimes for video purposes and have received quite a # of members in my paypal account.
I have always given them a substantial discount.
However I also think that any kind of commercial activity could be sidelined into a different location such as "trade and...."
I strongly suggest to keep the forums clean by posting commercial info in a separate box!
J-P
As a newbie, I would like to see a more organized approach to selling things.
I would like to build things, but the hardest part seems to be finding sources for the parts. And decent designs, too; both of which I'd be willing to pay for, even if it helps pay for the site.
While I'm pretty good with basic electronic theory, my degree was in Mechanical Engineering, so I prefer to find some existing designs known to work well, since I don't know enough yet to design even a simple amplifier myself.
I did pretty good on my current set of speakers, buying a kit from GR research that included parts and schematics for a very nicely optimized crossover. I could have probably gotten fairly close to this design with my ears alone, but only after weeks of tests and a big pile of crossover parts to choose from in order to have the selection of component values necessary to do such tweaking.
I couldn't even use my ears for an amplifier design, so I would like some more help with kits. The links section is currently broken, so that is probably why I'm writing here.
It would also be nice to see more fully presented designs, with price estimates, and a source for the the various components so that I could decide whether a project was in my budget or too much work even to acquire parts from fifteen widespread sources.
So far, even with something simple like speakers, you end up spending far more than you realize on things like sandpaper, let alone caps, wires, crossover parts, wood, paint. The big-ticket items like the drivers are only just a starting place.
With DIY amps, where I have never done anything before, I wish I could see a more comprehensible array of kits, full schematics and how-tos in a more organized fashion. The various good advice scattered thinly throughout the site are hard to comprehend without wading thru a heck of a lot of chaff that doesn't relate what I'm looking for at the moment.
BTW, I'm a pretty good writer and even a good graphic designer, so if there is a way to help someone post a fully described design, especially for a project that I would want to build myself, I'm quite willing.
I would like to build things, but the hardest part seems to be finding sources for the parts. And decent designs, too; both of which I'd be willing to pay for, even if it helps pay for the site.
While I'm pretty good with basic electronic theory, my degree was in Mechanical Engineering, so I prefer to find some existing designs known to work well, since I don't know enough yet to design even a simple amplifier myself.
I did pretty good on my current set of speakers, buying a kit from GR research that included parts and schematics for a very nicely optimized crossover. I could have probably gotten fairly close to this design with my ears alone, but only after weeks of tests and a big pile of crossover parts to choose from in order to have the selection of component values necessary to do such tweaking.
I couldn't even use my ears for an amplifier design, so I would like some more help with kits. The links section is currently broken, so that is probably why I'm writing here.
It would also be nice to see more fully presented designs, with price estimates, and a source for the the various components so that I could decide whether a project was in my budget or too much work even to acquire parts from fifteen widespread sources.
So far, even with something simple like speakers, you end up spending far more than you realize on things like sandpaper, let alone caps, wires, crossover parts, wood, paint. The big-ticket items like the drivers are only just a starting place.
With DIY amps, where I have never done anything before, I wish I could see a more comprehensible array of kits, full schematics and how-tos in a more organized fashion. The various good advice scattered thinly throughout the site are hard to comprehend without wading thru a heck of a lot of chaff that doesn't relate what I'm looking for at the moment.
BTW, I'm a pretty good writer and even a good graphic designer, so if there is a way to help someone post a fully described design, especially for a project that I would want to build myself, I'm quite willing.
Re: For Example...........
Under review... Jason is on walk-about, in Sinapore right now.
dave
Fred Dieckmann said:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=405991#post405991
What can I say that says it any better than this? How much talkiing about it are the people in charge going to do, before they do something about it............... Where is Jason on this issue? Does he have no opinion on the matter?
Under review... Jason is on walk-about, in Sinapore right now.
dave
IP, commercial interest, and abuse of position
These seem to be the big issues.
Fact #1
DIYAudio benefits from the invaluable input of guys like NP, Charles Hansen - who do audio professionally - as well as Fred, Jocko - who worked for years in the field and no longer have commercial interest - and Peter Daniel, BrianGT, and Peranders, who are small operators interested in selling smallish numbers, group buys included.
I believe there is a place under the DIYaudio umbrella for all of them.
All of these people have huge knowledge which many DIY members would like to access. How else could Joe Citizen get to talk to NP, for example, without buying his products?
I say ALL these guys should be fostered, encouraged, warmly welcomed, and fawned over. I really do. It is fundamental to the worth of this forum that there be higher authorities to whom people may aspire, and whom people can even approach and question.
Fact #2
I have seen no evidence anywhere, any time that any of these guys have 'damaged' the forum, degraded commercial or intellectual standards, or indulged in gratuitous flaming. None. Nix. Nor have I seen any sign of abuse of position, although my BS meter is probably a lot less sensitive than Fred's, whom incidentally I consider incredibly knowledgeable and a good buddy besides. In fact, Fred and I have worked together on one project - an active Sallen Key filter - and I consider him in a different league - far above my own abilities.
So what's all this stuff about their 'commercial' posts doing irreparable damage to our forum? Where? How? I've seen words/phrases like 'unconscionable' and 'abuse of moderator power'. But for the life of me I can't see where. Peter Daniels? Hell, no, a storm in a teacup. Can't see Peter's ripped anyone off. Peranders? Where? Even Lars Clauscen I thought was passable; you at least could tell from his enthusiasm he liked his products, and wanted to sell them. So what? Is that a crime? Are we all so stupid we blindly buy from people on the strength of enthusiasm? God help you when the Mormons call.......
Fact #3
Recently Charles Hansen, who is incredibly helpful and free with his knowledge (as well as highly articulate and very funny, at least to me) informed us that a capacitor across the emitter coupling resistor between the two drivers of a Leach amp did wonders for the sound.
He is absolutely right. Yet WW III broke out between two conflicting religions. Why? How smart is this? Does Charles, highly experienced in the arena, need to swear on a stack of bibles that it is indeed so? Has someone proved him wrong? Is this accepted audio folklore? I would suggest NO, yet it is so simple it is a five minute job to test the concept.
In truth, this is a significant morsel of audio information, yet it is disputed. For God's sake, guys, is Charles the modern day Galileo? If there is just the remotest chance this might be disproved for all eternity by the naysayers, then surely it is up to them to deliver that proof?
Conclusion
For the highly experienced, and perhaps touchier individuals here present, there is little reason to cast pearls before swine. If those decrying 'Commercial interest, beware' don't get him first, then the naysayers will demand chapter and verse of proof, redolent with PSpice, oscillograms, Stereophile Editorial and elaborate mathematics, and drown the prize in academic, all-knowing rebuke.......
Watch out, guys, lest someone as priceless as Charles considers it all too much and leaves our fold.......
Cheers,
Hugh
These seem to be the big issues.
Fact #1
DIYAudio benefits from the invaluable input of guys like NP, Charles Hansen - who do audio professionally - as well as Fred, Jocko - who worked for years in the field and no longer have commercial interest - and Peter Daniel, BrianGT, and Peranders, who are small operators interested in selling smallish numbers, group buys included.
I believe there is a place under the DIYaudio umbrella for all of them.
All of these people have huge knowledge which many DIY members would like to access. How else could Joe Citizen get to talk to NP, for example, without buying his products?
I say ALL these guys should be fostered, encouraged, warmly welcomed, and fawned over. I really do. It is fundamental to the worth of this forum that there be higher authorities to whom people may aspire, and whom people can even approach and question.
Fact #2
I have seen no evidence anywhere, any time that any of these guys have 'damaged' the forum, degraded commercial or intellectual standards, or indulged in gratuitous flaming. None. Nix. Nor have I seen any sign of abuse of position, although my BS meter is probably a lot less sensitive than Fred's, whom incidentally I consider incredibly knowledgeable and a good buddy besides. In fact, Fred and I have worked together on one project - an active Sallen Key filter - and I consider him in a different league - far above my own abilities.
So what's all this stuff about their 'commercial' posts doing irreparable damage to our forum? Where? How? I've seen words/phrases like 'unconscionable' and 'abuse of moderator power'. But for the life of me I can't see where. Peter Daniels? Hell, no, a storm in a teacup. Can't see Peter's ripped anyone off. Peranders? Where? Even Lars Clauscen I thought was passable; you at least could tell from his enthusiasm he liked his products, and wanted to sell them. So what? Is that a crime? Are we all so stupid we blindly buy from people on the strength of enthusiasm? God help you when the Mormons call.......
Fact #3
Recently Charles Hansen, who is incredibly helpful and free with his knowledge (as well as highly articulate and very funny, at least to me) informed us that a capacitor across the emitter coupling resistor between the two drivers of a Leach amp did wonders for the sound.
He is absolutely right. Yet WW III broke out between two conflicting religions. Why? How smart is this? Does Charles, highly experienced in the arena, need to swear on a stack of bibles that it is indeed so? Has someone proved him wrong? Is this accepted audio folklore? I would suggest NO, yet it is so simple it is a five minute job to test the concept.
In truth, this is a significant morsel of audio information, yet it is disputed. For God's sake, guys, is Charles the modern day Galileo? If there is just the remotest chance this might be disproved for all eternity by the naysayers, then surely it is up to them to deliver that proof?
Conclusion
For the highly experienced, and perhaps touchier individuals here present, there is little reason to cast pearls before swine. If those decrying 'Commercial interest, beware' don't get him first, then the naysayers will demand chapter and verse of proof, redolent with PSpice, oscillograms, Stereophile Editorial and elaborate mathematics, and drown the prize in academic, all-knowing rebuke.......
Watch out, guys, lest someone as priceless as Charles considers it all too much and leaves our fold.......
Cheers,
Hugh
Actually, jh6you,
You raise an interesting point. I do not have a problem at all with anyone hinting at his product on this forum, or sugar coating the pill regarding his own products, because I make the very reasonable assessment that people here are smart enough to recognise a selling pitch for what it is.......
We all exist in a sea of marketing. It is everywhere, and look out, buddy, it is on a TV channel near you - even in China. Whether it's commercial product, government 'information', or religion, it's all there for your indiscriminate consumption. It is neither wise nor intelligent to expect any communication with anyone, anywhere, to be entirely without bias, marketing angle, or ulterior motive. This is the world; a raging torrent of rampant self-interest and conflicting opinions.
WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN VIEWS AND PREFERENCES, AND LEARN TO DISTINGUISH BIAS IN OTHERS.
Sincerely,
Hugh
You raise an interesting point. I do not have a problem at all with anyone hinting at his product on this forum, or sugar coating the pill regarding his own products, because I make the very reasonable assessment that people here are smart enough to recognise a selling pitch for what it is.......
We all exist in a sea of marketing. It is everywhere, and look out, buddy, it is on a TV channel near you - even in China. Whether it's commercial product, government 'information', or religion, it's all there for your indiscriminate consumption. It is neither wise nor intelligent to expect any communication with anyone, anywhere, to be entirely without bias, marketing angle, or ulterior motive. This is the world; a raging torrent of rampant self-interest and conflicting opinions.
WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN VIEWS AND PREFERENCES, AND LEARN TO DISTINGUISH BIAS IN OTHERS.
Sincerely,
Hugh
Well said.
Its strange that this form seems to be so well intentioned,
I have been in alot of forms and its gets childish after a while, i do not agree in promotion any brand, full stop, i can recommend speakers but as long as am not blinded by my own taste, i am glad that people all over the world have there own ideas and have the grace to listen to others.
Its strange that this form seems to be so well intentioned,
I have been in alot of forms and its gets childish after a while, i do not agree in promotion any brand, full stop, i can recommend speakers but as long as am not blinded by my own taste, i am glad that people all over the world have there own ideas and have the grace to listen to others.
Missing the point........
Hugh,
You make some good points but the thread was about moderators and commerce, not regular members, and rules governing moderators and the fact that moderators can have undue influence over the regular membership because of their position.
This is not to say that regular members don't need guidelines.........
Regards,
Jam
Hugh,
You make some good points but the thread was about moderators and commerce, not regular members, and rules governing moderators and the fact that moderators can have undue influence over the regular membership because of their position.
This is not to say that regular members don't need guidelines.........
Regards,
Jam
Jam,
I take your point, politely put, but I feel that hitting the thread bullseye narrows the arguments, when fundamentally the issues apply across the board. I would also contend that the moderators are regular folk too, and that it should be very clear from my posts that I make generic comment, without in any way focussing on one group. Such an approach could easily be construed as divisive, particularly over this sensitive matter.
Moreover, in this environment, with hugely varying timescales and multiple languages and cultures, remaining precisely on the point is tricky because posts can be simultaneous, or delayed in transit, or plain misunderstood, creating strangely surreal dialogues at times.
Finally, this is a very long thread, covering a lot of ground. It clearly has deviated off track in the past, and will doubtless do so in the future. Since this is enjoyment for me as much as meaningful debate, I would rather not conduct myself as though I am writing the minutes of a corporate meeting......
In the meantime, let's have some of that poignant social comment you so effortlessly portray with your marvellous graphics!
Cheers,
Hugh
I take your point, politely put, but I feel that hitting the thread bullseye narrows the arguments, when fundamentally the issues apply across the board. I would also contend that the moderators are regular folk too, and that it should be very clear from my posts that I make generic comment, without in any way focussing on one group. Such an approach could easily be construed as divisive, particularly over this sensitive matter.
Moreover, in this environment, with hugely varying timescales and multiple languages and cultures, remaining precisely on the point is tricky because posts can be simultaneous, or delayed in transit, or plain misunderstood, creating strangely surreal dialogues at times.
Finally, this is a very long thread, covering a lot of ground. It clearly has deviated off track in the past, and will doubtless do so in the future. Since this is enjoyment for me as much as meaningful debate, I would rather not conduct myself as though I am writing the minutes of a corporate meeting......
In the meantime, let's have some of that poignant social comment you so effortlessly portray with your marvellous graphics!
Cheers,
Hugh
Jam:
Let me just restate a few things that I know you're familiar with, but sometimes need repetition for newer members:
1. Moderators are NOT employees of diyaudio.com nor do they receive any benefits. It is volunteer work.
2. Moderators are NOT discussion leaders or chosen for stunning degrees of technical competence (not to say that a few of them aren't pretty competent...) or of any "higher" position than any other member.
3. Moderation is 99% janitorial work; cleaning up threads, reviewing posts from new members who may not understand forum rules and etiquette, fixing registration issues.
4. 99% of what moderators post have nothing whatever to do with moderation; we're all members who are active here because we enjoy designing and building stuff.
5. It's rare that someone will take something a moderator says more seriously than something said by another member; non-existent in my experience. I mean, honestly, who is more likely to be believed and respected, me (a moderator) or jonathan carr (a member)? People are accorded respect and attention by the things they say, not the little fine print under their handle.
6. If there has been less of tendency to argue with me after I became a moderator, I haven't noticed. It doesn't intimidate anyone, nor would any of us want it to. It certainly hasn't stopped you or Fred or jocko from jabbing at P-A or Peter Daniel. I get my share of flak, too, and that's fine, it's the give-and-take of discussion among peers.
7. The moderation crew is here to serve the interests of the members. There is extremely severe peer review among us. That's why mods are not any more autocratic, abusive, censorious, or arrogant than any other person drawn from the pool of geeks who spend their time with soldering irons. Maybe less so- there were things I could get away with saying before I became a mod that I couldn't (or wouldn't) now. And that's OK with me, it's a form of discipline that helps me focus on more important issues than my own ego.
8. Given all this, I come down about where Hugh does; I just haven't seen any abuse of moderator capability to promote commercial ventures.
Let me just restate a few things that I know you're familiar with, but sometimes need repetition for newer members:
1. Moderators are NOT employees of diyaudio.com nor do they receive any benefits. It is volunteer work.
2. Moderators are NOT discussion leaders or chosen for stunning degrees of technical competence (not to say that a few of them aren't pretty competent...) or of any "higher" position than any other member.
3. Moderation is 99% janitorial work; cleaning up threads, reviewing posts from new members who may not understand forum rules and etiquette, fixing registration issues.
4. 99% of what moderators post have nothing whatever to do with moderation; we're all members who are active here because we enjoy designing and building stuff.
5. It's rare that someone will take something a moderator says more seriously than something said by another member; non-existent in my experience. I mean, honestly, who is more likely to be believed and respected, me (a moderator) or jonathan carr (a member)? People are accorded respect and attention by the things they say, not the little fine print under their handle.
6. If there has been less of tendency to argue with me after I became a moderator, I haven't noticed. It doesn't intimidate anyone, nor would any of us want it to. It certainly hasn't stopped you or Fred or jocko from jabbing at P-A or Peter Daniel. I get my share of flak, too, and that's fine, it's the give-and-take of discussion among peers.
7. The moderation crew is here to serve the interests of the members. There is extremely severe peer review among us. That's why mods are not any more autocratic, abusive, censorious, or arrogant than any other person drawn from the pool of geeks who spend their time with soldering irons. Maybe less so- there were things I could get away with saying before I became a mod that I couldn't (or wouldn't) now. And that's OK with me, it's a form of discipline that helps me focus on more important issues than my own ego.
8. Given all this, I come down about where Hugh does; I just haven't seen any abuse of moderator capability to promote commercial ventures.
Poignant social comment.....
Hugh,
I see most of your argument but disagree about moderators indulging in commerce.............for example Sidney Harmon of Harmon Kardon had to sell his company for the period of time he joined the goverment and buy it back when he left, so that there was no conflict........but coming back to social comment, I had been saving this for an occasion like this........
Regards,
Jam
Hugh,
I see most of your argument but disagree about moderators indulging in commerce.............for example Sidney Harmon of Harmon Kardon had to sell his company for the period of time he joined the goverment and buy it back when he left, so that there was no conflict........but coming back to social comment, I had been saving this for an occasion like this........
Regards,
Jam
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