Scottmoose said:Nice work Greg, hope you like them.
I like to cabinet, fine looking, design is excellent, sound need adjusting as u suggested since the speaker is not the ideal for the cabinet. Will take some time to get it right, and may have to get the Fostex speaker for which it is designed for.
Like the looks definitely more effort than the BIB speakers. Enjoyed building it.
How is the sound affected if I add or remove more of the stuffing in the compression chamber?
gychang
Bluto said:
thanks for the compliment, lots of small mistakes u don't see but I tried to seal things tight (lots of liquid nails and caulk...)
My favorite is this: If u can cut a 90degree with circular saw, and have a strong back, and looking for a non-golden ear "best sound for a $" this is it....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have no difficulties with living with all Scott's designs (BIB, Half Chang, Metronome etc), BIB is definitely easiest sound for woodwork challenged. Cyburg Needle is good if wife insists on a smaller cabinet. small DelSol is just a "bedroom" speaker lacking bass pictured here.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
gychang
I kind of wondered if it would come down to the 'Mighty B20' !
I started my interest in DIY with that driver and I keep coming back and looking at it. I'm betting it really performs with a phase plug and enabling. Simply no room in Home for it with other priorities. I really like what Nelson Pass did with it as well and would like to try that .
It's looking like CSS / TB Horns for living room HT, OB for the Office and TL for the Dining room for me at this point. I need to use drivers I've purchased.
Your errors don't show, thats all that counts.
Bluto
I started my interest in DIY with that driver and I keep coming back and looking at it. I'm betting it really performs with a phase plug and enabling. Simply no room in Home for it with other priorities. I really like what Nelson Pass did with it as well and would like to try that .
It's looking like CSS / TB Horns for living room HT, OB for the Office and TL for the Dining room for me at this point. I need to use drivers I've purchased.
Your errors don't show, thats all that counts.
Bluto
Between a 1.5" diameter VC and a decoupling ring fairly close to the whizzer to limit its TL mode BW, there's no way a phase plug or selective cone damping will help its HF response enough to not need at least a super tweeter and the large number of decoupling rings (mechanical XOs) will severely limit its ultimate clarity.
That said, IIRC at least one 'tweaker' managed to boost it probably to its limit by removing the whizzer, treating the diaphragm with his own blend of shellac to increase its break-up modes BW to make it more tweeter-like and replacing the DC with an aluminum one cut from the bottom of a soda can, then went back and did some selective damping with his own blend of Dammar.
A great learning exercise for the avid DIYer, but at this level of mods, better for the rest to just buy a better driver unless of course the budget is stretched to the limit for the foreseeable future.
GM
That said, IIRC at least one 'tweaker' managed to boost it probably to its limit by removing the whizzer, treating the diaphragm with his own blend of shellac to increase its break-up modes BW to make it more tweeter-like and replacing the DC with an aluminum one cut from the bottom of a soda can, then went back and did some selective damping with his own blend of Dammar.
A great learning exercise for the avid DIYer, but at this level of mods, better for the rest to just buy a better driver unless of course the budget is stretched to the limit for the foreseeable future.
GM
The phase plug and enabling treatments change the treble character of the B20 in a positive manner, but do not appreciably extend its reach on the top end. The B20 responds well to EQ up top and performs acceptably without a tweeter under those conditions. If you're not intending for your design to always run with EQ for the top, you will need a supertweeter.
Bluto, I had the B20s on 12"x18" OBs hinge mounted to my desk for nearly two years. My PC was my source there, so I was able to apply EQ top and bottom and was getting from about 50Hz to at least 16kHz (like I've mentioned elsewhere, there's only one driver that I've been able to prove that I'm hearing higher than 16kHz with, so YMMV). My point is that I bet you've got space for that They were really good stock (so good that I kinda beat myself up for waiting so long to try them out), and the P10 phase plugs I installed really put them in a more refined class altogether. The enabling treatment is a wonderful thing, but I don't recommend it for OB use. The front and back waves become so dissimilar that their interaction becomes confused, often a bit disorienting to listen to.
So, for OB use, I would recommend the phase plugs and maybe puzzle coating (that was part of my enabling process; Dave at P10 did it for me), both sides, and possibly damar for the whizzer. If you're going with a real enclosure, enabling, while expensive (either for someone else to do for you or in time/materials/learning curve for you; say $200+ for a pair), leaves you with a driver that if it sold retail in that form stock, would still be worth every dollar and competitive in its price range.
They're in the big sealed cabs in my living room right now with Neo3PDRs cap with the stock Yamaha 2.2uF caps that were hot glued into the cabs, and they sing, clear as day and wonderfully fun and listenable, even with the crappy old Pioneer VSX-411 receiver driving them (kinda dull and muffled compared to my favored digital amps) and their suboptimal positioning (laying on their sides in the outer bottom compartments of a very large entertainment center, so the driver center is maybe 10" off the floor).
Then again, you've already got some interesting drivers on hand that I'd love to play with, so get to playing and show us what you've done.
Kensai
Bluto, I had the B20s on 12"x18" OBs hinge mounted to my desk for nearly two years. My PC was my source there, so I was able to apply EQ top and bottom and was getting from about 50Hz to at least 16kHz (like I've mentioned elsewhere, there's only one driver that I've been able to prove that I'm hearing higher than 16kHz with, so YMMV). My point is that I bet you've got space for that
They were really good stock (so good that I kinda beat myself up for waiting so long to try them out), and the P10 phase plugs I installed really put them in a more refined class altogether. The enabling treatment is a wonderful thing, but I don't recommend it for OB use. The front and back waves become so dissimilar that their interaction becomes confused, often a bit disorienting to listen to. So, for OB use, I would recommend the phase plugs and maybe puzzle coating (that was part of my enabling process; Dave at P10 did it for me), both sides, and possibly damar for the whizzer. If you're going with a real enclosure, enabling, while expensive (either for someone else to do for you or in time/materials/learning curve for you; say $200+ for a pair), leaves you with a driver that if it sold retail in that form stock, would still be worth every dollar and competitive in its price range.
They're in the big sealed cabs in my living room right now with Neo3PDRs cap with the stock Yamaha 2.2uF caps that were hot glued into the cabs, and they sing, clear as day and wonderfully fun and listenable, even with the crappy old Pioneer VSX-411 receiver driving them (kinda dull and muffled compared to my favored digital amps) and their suboptimal positioning (laying on their sides in the outer bottom compartments of a very large entertainment center, so the driver center is maybe 10" off the floor).
Then again, you've already got some interesting drivers on hand that I'd love to play with, so get to playing and show us what you've done.
Kensai
What can you say when 3 guys whom you all respect offer differing opinions you also respect?
I primarily posed question out of curiosity as I simply have so much respect for all Gychang has accomplished in a limited period of time with multitude of drivers and I own similiar to all he has.
Amplification is still major issue for living room HT , recall if you will I blew up my receiver testing some horns I'd thrown together, fitment on a horrible wall still a concern, etc., etc. .... thus the reason nothing but OSB projects. We've been living with TV speakers for 3 months, using an old Allied for test stuff in Computer room, have a Sansui AU717 on it's way for time being to replace blown HT and will likely just pick up a cheap Onkyo 7.1 HT before Fall until I can afford Emotiva separates for L.R.
GM - now that you mention it I do recall the guy who used the aluminum can for a DC, never followed that thread to it's conclusion.
I wish this Computer was capable of posting pics because I'd love to post some photos of wall as well as drawings of ideas so you could see what I'm up against.
I own so many stinkin drivers the possibilities are mind boggling. I want even more with what runs through my head!
Kinda like Jimi Hendrix ... 'I know what I want but I just don't know how to go about gettin it'.
Bluto
I primarily posed question out of curiosity as I simply have so much respect for all Gychang has accomplished in a limited period of time with multitude of drivers and I own similiar to all he has.
Amplification is still major issue for living room HT , recall if you will I blew up my receiver testing some horns I'd thrown together, fitment on a horrible wall still a concern, etc., etc. .... thus the reason nothing but OSB projects. We've been living with TV speakers for 3 months, using an old Allied for test stuff in Computer room, have a Sansui AU717 on it's way for time being to replace blown HT and will likely just pick up a cheap Onkyo 7.1 HT before Fall until I can afford Emotiva separates for L.R.
GM - now that you mention it I do recall the guy who used the aluminum can for a DC, never followed that thread to it's conclusion.
I wish this Computer was capable of posting pics because I'd love to post some photos of wall as well as drawings of ideas so you could see what I'm up against.
I own so many stinkin drivers the possibilities are mind boggling. I want even more with what runs through my head!
Kinda like Jimi Hendrix ... 'I know what I want but I just don't know how to go about gettin it'.
Bluto
Not sure what you're referring to, but we all hear the same, yet not the same depending on a number of variables such as sex, age, lifestyle, etc., so where applicable I will always present/defend a 'worst case' scenario on-line for the simple reason that there's normally going to be lots of folks reading it, and more importantly IMO is that few folks always listen in isolation, so for every response there's other folk's hearing acuity to consider.
Yes, he's a true 'grass roots' DIYer after my own heart in that while others talk, debate, argue, 'spiral down the drain' of indecision he just builds enough variety of designs to form his own opinions.
Sorry, combined with my failing memory and preoccupation with other things I'm down to the point of reading/copying my own responses to remind myself of what I once knew, so don't have a clue about your audio problems beyond what you just posted.
Why can't you post pics?
I hear ya! I've got enough lying around to build quite a few relatively inexpensive HT systems, but there's no profitable market for them in my area anymore and as best I can tell, no DIYer market for them either without practically giving them away.
I've been very fortunate in that from an early age I knew where I wanted to be WRT a high SQ sound system and how to get it and was fortunate enough to attain it at an early enough age to enjoy it to the max. Not that each iteration along the way was the best money could buy or that it was my 'ideal', far from it, just that each met all my basic criteria as it evolved and I got it at a tiny fraction of what it would have cost to have it all custom made.
GM
Yes, he's a true 'grass roots' DIYer after my own heart in that while others talk, debate, argue, 'spiral down the drain' of indecision he just builds enough variety of designs to form his own opinions.
Sorry, combined with my failing memory and preoccupation with other things I'm down to the point of reading/copying my own responses to remind myself of what I once knew, so don't have a clue about your audio problems beyond what you just posted.
Why can't you post pics?
I hear ya! I've got enough lying around to build quite a few relatively inexpensive HT systems, but there's no profitable market for them in my area anymore and as best I can tell, no DIYer market for them either without practically giving them away.
I've been very fortunate in that from an early age I knew where I wanted to be WRT a high SQ sound system and how to get it and was fortunate enough to attain it at an early enough age to enjoy it to the max. Not that each iteration along the way was the best money could buy or that it was my 'ideal', far from it, just that each met all my basic criteria as it evolved and I got it at a tiny fraction of what it would have cost to have it all custom made.
GM
GM,
Are you disagreeing with the statement you quoted or something else?
I'm not saying anything about enabling extending the highs on a B20. I was saying that you could coax reasonable treble out of them with sufficient EQ (which is to say, quite alot). Also not saying that doing it that way sounded anything other than listenable (again, with a goodly bit of shaping EQ, not just simple boosting, so it did require a good bit of effort on my part to get to listenable), even with the enabl. The phase plug made the most change in the sound, and then the enabl made it sound better in all areas though it did kill them as OB drivers (on OB in the nearfield like I was using them was trippy and sometimes disorienting) which is what I had been using them as for nearly 2 years.
I don't know much about selective damping, most of that I've read in your posts. Never tried it myself, but then again, my enabl job was donated to me by P10 since I was willing to guinea pig my drivers. The most modding I've done with my hands is the dustcapectomy needed to install my phase plugs, so I'm not an authority on one mod versus another. I'm a proponent of phase plugs and OB. Enabl or selectively damp or cut or glue or whatever your drivers at your own risk, IMO.
Just want to make sure what point(s) you're making, as I'm not terribly likely to be disagreeing with you.
Kensai
Are you disagreeing with the statement you quoted or something else?
I'm not saying anything about enabling extending the highs on a B20. I was saying that you could coax reasonable treble out of them with sufficient EQ (which is to say, quite alot). Also not saying that doing it that way sounded anything other than listenable (again, with a goodly bit of shaping EQ, not just simple boosting, so it did require a good bit of effort on my part to get to listenable), even with the enabl. The phase plug made the most change in the sound, and then the enabl made it sound better in all areas though it did kill them as OB drivers (on OB in the nearfield like I was using them was trippy and sometimes disorienting) which is what I had been using them as for nearly 2 years.
I don't know much about selective damping, most of that I've read in your posts. Never tried it myself, but then again, my enabl job was donated to me by P10 since I was willing to guinea pig my drivers. The most modding I've done with my hands is the dustcapectomy needed to install my phase plugs, so I'm not an authority on one mod versus another. I'm a proponent of phase plugs and OB. Enabl or selectively damp or cut or glue or whatever your drivers at your own risk, IMO.
Just want to make sure what point(s) you're making, as I'm not terribly likely to be disagreeing with you.
Kensai
Kensai said:
I didn't say you did, you clearly stated the contrary. Apparently I truncated too much of your opinion that I disagree with:
"The phase plug and enabling treatments change the treble character of the B20 in a positive manner, but do not appreciably extend its reach on the top end. The B20 responds well to EQ up top and performs acceptably without a tweeter under those conditions. If you're not intending for your design to always run with EQ for the top, you will need a supertweeter."
We're all entitled to our opinions of course, but the implication that 'Enabling' helped a B20 enough to perform the HF 'acceptably' with any other form of EQ short of adding a super tweeter a bit too much for me to 'swallow' based on my own and other's experience with this driver as well as its physical limitations I previously noted, so we'll have to 'agree to disagree'.
GM
Hi Bluto, OT: why not upgrade that Windows ME computer to run Linux? Ubuntu Linux is a good choice. Linux is a free download and barring a hardware problem, your computer won't crash, freeze, blue-screen, mysteriously slow down, plus it will be impervious to Windows viruses, spyware, malware, adware, popups etc.
You won't need to install separate anti-virus or firewall, nor pay $50 per year for those services. Only hitches: if your modem is a cheapo software-based "Winmodem," it may not be supported but it's worth upgrading those to "real" controller-based ("hardware") modems. Plus if you have 256 Megs of RAM or less, you will probably be happier running in a "lightweight" mode.
My computer's as old as yours (~8 years) and runs like a champ. Firefox 3, Picasa, no problems with Flash, video, DVD's etc. Most flavors of Linux come in a "LiveCD" that lets you boot the OS to see if you like it (prior to installing) though it will run slowly in that testing mode. PM me if you need any help.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.