That was exactly my point: you are very happy with the sound, yet there are some aspects that clash with "common wisdom" on this forum. Not trying to say common wisdom is wrong, but maybe some atributes are overvalued. Example here being lobbing "should be" awful in this setup, yet you perceive none. I've also seen comments from very experienced users suggesting lobbing might be overrated. Another example was given on this thread before along the lines of conical horns sounding better than they measure.
Another aspect might be dispersion match at the xo point. I would imagine your AMT and horn have pretty differnt dispersion at 6kHz, right?
Maybe the more you climb in the high end the less the lobbying is important (it is upon the range where the ear is the most sensible) ?
As I'm asking myself how can be the pattern of the FR Dayton driver in the big red horn and also how is the XO in the low : no one harmonic between the Electrical XO and the roll off of the horn ?
Pretty system than you have Scott, it seems the Planar is a famous serbian one ?
I like the push-push sloated bass and the big bass aera
As I'm asking myself how can be the pattern of the FR Dayton driver in the big red horn and also how is the XO in the low : no one harmonic between the Electrical XO and the roll off of the horn ?
Pretty system than you have Scott, it seems the Planar is a famous serbian one ?
I like the push-push sloated bass and the big bass aera
I'm playing with my 215hz Tractrix\m5n12 tpl150h at the moment, one observation is how much more efficient the mid is, est 107db\w, 26ohm to level them out till I go active. I'm crossing the tpl in at 2k, the faital is running with just the resistor and it is interfering up to 4k ish, ragged above roughly 2500 in my horn, but the sound is IMHO excellent, just waiting on some new opt's to go active and get a high and low pass on the mid horn.
This is my philosophy too - keeping the critical 300Hz to 5kHz section free of distorting, multi source crossed over drivers - by allowing only one driver to cover that range.
It's the most critical range we can all hear, only a madman would overlap two drivers and a crossover in that region
Commercial hifi does it - but if you've heard any recently you'll know it sounds boring and small, there's no excuse for DIY to do it too!
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It's the most critical range we can all hear, only a madman would overlap two drivers and a crossover in that region
This madman would like 120 down -bass, 120 to 1200 -midrange, 1200 -treble - problem is getting a horn to cover 120 to 1200 with low compromise
Likewise a horn that will do 300 to 5K low compromise - I have horn systems that will do both but crossing 600 and 2K sounds better so there we go again
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dispersion at 6 K ?
Mr. Lewinski, you raise an interesting question (and topic). The horn loaded ribbon tweeter is limited to 40 degrees vertical, and 70 degrees horizontal.
I'm not sure if it is clear from the picture, but the ribbon is angled down such that it fires directly at me, in my listening chair. Also, because of the very large size of the red horn, there is virtually no off axis response. I wouldn't know how to calculate it, but my guess is, the dispersion pattern of each @ 6K is more alike, than different. It sure sounds like it, anyway
Mr. Lewinski, you raise an interesting question (and topic). The horn loaded ribbon tweeter is limited to 40 degrees vertical, and 70 degrees horizontal.
I'm not sure if it is clear from the picture, but the ribbon is angled down such that it fires directly at me, in my listening chair. Also, because of the very large size of the red horn, there is virtually no off axis response. I wouldn't know how to calculate it, but my guess is, the dispersion pattern of each @ 6K is more alike, than different. It sure sounds like it, anyway
This madman would like 120 down -bass, 120 to 1200 -midrange, 1200 -treble - problem is getting a horn to cover 120 to 1200 with low compromise
Hello Pooh.
Considering your extensive experience with horns and with M5N12, what would you recommend for my case? Round vs rectangular mouth horn, tractrix profile or other? Considering the range I'm after and the TPL sitting on top.
Eldam
Greetings again Eldam. Always enjoy reading your posts. To clarify, the driver in the large red horn is the Tang Band w8-1772. The horn loaded ribbon is sourced from The Netherlands. Mid-bass is push-pull, slot load. Low bass is push-push plenum load. I'm seriously thinking about horn loading the mid-bass. After all, it was designed with the horn loaded concept in mind. Never quite done this way before, though, so it would be a first (as far as I know). The mid-bass slot is already quite dynamic, @ 100db/watt, but, I have a feeling horn loading this beast will be the icing on the cake. And, I do love cake
Maybe the more you climb in the high end the less the lobbying is important (it is upon the range where the ear is the most sensible) ?
As I'm asking myself how can be the pattern of the FR Dayton driver in the big red horn and also how is the XO in the low : no one harmonic between the Electrical XO and the roll off of the horn ?
Pretty system than you have Scott, it seems the Planar is a famous serbian one ?
I like the push-push sloated bass and the big bass aera
Greetings again Eldam. Always enjoy reading your posts. To clarify, the driver in the large red horn is the Tang Band w8-1772. The horn loaded ribbon is sourced from The Netherlands. Mid-bass is push-pull, slot load. Low bass is push-push plenum load. I'm seriously thinking about horn loading the mid-bass. After all, it was designed with the horn loaded concept in mind. Never quite done this way before, though, so it would be a first (as far as I know). The mid-bass slot is already quite dynamic, @ 100db/watt, but, I have a feeling horn loading this beast will be the icing on the cake. And, I do love cake
I really don't like the AMT so I 'm staying away from recommendations. The best I ever got them to mate was with a pair of PR170MO on a baffle. My experience with that driver isn't so extensive. It never made it to my big rig because I always had something better.
Understood. What about round vs rectangular mouth for the midrange with the M5N12, within 400 to 2500Hz? Horn profile? And the importance of lobbing with a large midrange and a large tweeter?
I think a big radial expo horn sounds great, I keep going back to them. They have a 3D live sound when setup right with lots of depth and great power response. This is with compression drivers though but what's nice is you get the controlled directivety of a conic horn plus the gain on the LF.
The lobbing is an issue and the closer you can get the mid and treble the better you are. If you sit in one spot and don't listen critically standing or laying on the couch it becomes less of an issue. Again, a radial horn can be made to have a short vertical profile and still deliver the goods.
I have some 220 hz radial horns I could try the driver in if you'd like.
The lobbing is an issue and the closer you can get the mid and treble the better you are. If you sit in one spot and don't listen critically standing or laying on the couch it becomes less of an issue. Again, a radial horn can be made to have a short vertical profile and still deliver the goods.
I have some 220 hz radial horns I could try the driver in if you'd like.
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The larger conical/tractrix? Could I have your thoughts on aligning them horizontally versus vertically?
Thank you Bruce.
I guess I need to build something and experience how bothersome the lobbing is to me. A rectangular horn is easier to build so might be a starting point.
Since these will be in the living room I will run the idea by the wife...radial vs rectangular.
What's the range of operation of the radial wooden cone-driven horn you posted? And the parameters of the horn itself? Doesn't look that large. Maybe because everything else is large and I loose perspective
Regarding your offer to try the M5N12 on the 220Hz horn (tractrix?), that is very generous!!! That would be outstanding.
Mouth 60 x 35cm
Throat 9 x 9
38 cm long
Enzo
Nice progress. Congrats!
I started building something and got the rear chambers done. Built with 6" PVC pipe, lined with sonic barrier (to dampen vibrations), filled with fiberglass wool and 2" fiberglass panel on the back. One built as to annul the reactance, the other built longer so to try it per Scott's build (open back, stuffed). And I started breaking in the drivers yesterday. Initially sounded like crap. An hour later they were sounding good.
I'm hoping to cut the pieces for a rectangular tractrix out of foam today to try out will reduced effort
Attachments
Greetings again Eldam. Always enjoy reading your posts. To clarify, the driver in the large red horn is the Tang Band w8-1772. The horn loaded ribbon is sourced from The Netherlands. Mid-bass is push-pull, slot load. Low bass is push-push plenum load. I'm seriously thinking about horn loading the mid-bass. After all, it was designed with the horn loaded concept in mind. Never quite done this way before, though, so it would be a first (as far as I know). The mid-bass slot is already quite dynamic, @ 100db/watt, but, I have a feeling horn loading this beast will be the icing on the cake. And, I do love cake
Thanks Scott for answering.
Yep I have some odd questions often (and always in an aproximativ English, Queen bless me if not God !) but I believe hardly all is between the theory and the experience (that some call the trade offs, for me a trade off can be only made if the theory is understood like the fruit of the experience too... so all these readings and answers are great for my understandings.
Ah I remember now Tang Bang not Dayton, you had said me this already. The sloated push-pull is near than the one Jazman member made but his cabinet is pusch pusch.. I lurk also into it below 100-200 Hz
Btw I thought the tweeter was a Rall (i hope my ears to be better than my eyes !). My goal is a little diferent : Scan Speak 10F/8F horned around 1000 to up : below Something à la POOH or InlowSound around 100-200 to 1000 with a 8". But I'm asking as well because the phase behavior if a 12" with a FLH à la VOTT but sealed behind could be easier... Beyma 12CL500 or 12P80Fe (prefer heavy driver if I can). I I could have a 100 db like Lewinski or yours, it will be a cool one
. (The only advantage I see in the FLH à la VOTT or the Tannoy GrandMa cabinet is maybe a better phase behavior and perhaps the possibility to go below 100-150 Hz with less deep than a straight horn ! Not saying than you just need below the sub vertical aera or the distributed sealed cabinet à la Earl Gedle if you can reach less than 100 Hz with the FLH). But as says Lewinski, it can be the bella WAF casus belli! Cave or garage needed !)I'm convinced myself of the good result of the mid bass in horn and I'm not surprised you have a good result (all my commercial speakers but one are 125-150 to 2000 Hz Xoed, sound is coherent (but have not the free as a bird behavior of high efficienty system, so my presence here as always !) So it should be even more at 6k with your XO...
About Cake, did you listen to Motorcade of Generosity... funny album ! About icing : http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/haut-parleur-speaker/davis-acoustics-16tk6-v2-8ohm.html TiConAl, Monsieur ! maybe with a 1:1 throat ...dunno !
sorry for the off topic (always hope it gives also a tip for someone else than myself, anyway thanks again to the members here, I learn a lot from the Lewinski work in progress and experienced answers of members here.
@ Lewinski : continue the good work
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A Heil AMT-1 at 1800 XO on the Apex in a Synergy with B&C PE21 below on the sides could be fun ....4 x the Sd of a 8"... Don't know if with all this spl the planars of the Heil could push Something
I built a rectangular tractrix based on Hornresp output, with 2:1 width:height aspect ratio. I did in with foam to make a quick an easy build...but looks aren't exactly tops
I took a quick measurement on-axis, at the mouth edge, FDW @ 10 cycles. While the loading at 350-400Hz is what I was shooting for, beyond 1100Hz is a bit underwhelming...I was hoping to cross this one over at 2500Hz...
Hornresp was predicting better performance above 1kHz - see attachment.
Feedback from experienced users, please?
I took a quick measurement on-axis, at the mouth edge, FDW @ 10 cycles. While the loading at 350-400Hz is what I was shooting for, beyond 1100Hz is a bit underwhelming...I was hoping to cross this one over at 2500Hz...
Hornresp was predicting better performance above 1kHz - see attachment.
Feedback from experienced users, please?
