![scan0002%20%28Medium%29[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/206/206183-3663c3d0f68a5831c43e35c4577f85a9.jpg)
The size and value of the resistor from source to gate on the MOSFET is not critical.
It defines the turn off time of the limiter. Lower values turn off the MOSFET more quickly.
1K - 4.7k should work fine. I have been using 1K, 1/2W.
Are you trying to use the ML limiter circuit with a CLS?
The ML circuit is designed only for hybrid panels where it limits frequencies > 250Hz.
That is why they can use small low current diodes. They are taking advantage of the higher pulsed current capability of the diodes.
CLS is a fullrange ESL and the limiter would need to be able to handle much more power for limiting at lower frequencies.
The diodes in the bridge rectifier will need to be sized to handle more current, and you will probably need to parallel several MOSFETs on bigger heat sinks to handle the heat generated during limiting.
I am still experimenting with limiters for full range ESLs, so can not give more advice than this for now.
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Your saying
Are you trying to use the ML limiter circuit with a CLS?
No, I am Not using the Limimer At All, In Most Set up with the logan SL3,Acsent,Up To the Top all panels with PIstion Drivers,It Eats power,An sounds OK.
As i have sead Here i have Re- done My panels, An bias Feeds An i get All lot MORE out put,So any need for the Limiter[ Is out ]For the Stock Setup,As thay Have Low output from the Start,I have Taken the Limiter OUT To get all the output i can in the stock set up,I see more the limiter needed in fullrang set ups.I was puting the CLS up for you see they setup on there panels.Your are just using Re.on your input to your fulrang panels,Right
Thanks
Are you trying to use the ML limiter circuit with a CLS?
No, I am Not using the Limimer At All, In Most Set up with the logan SL3,Acsent,Up To the Top all panels with PIstion Drivers,It Eats power,An sounds OK.
As i have sead Here i have Re- done My panels, An bias Feeds An i get All lot MORE out put,So any need for the Limiter[ Is out ]For the Stock Setup,As thay Have Low output from the Start,I have Taken the Limiter OUT To get all the output i can in the stock set up,I see more the limiter needed in fullrang set ups.I was puting the CLS up for you see they setup on there panels.Your are just using Re.on your input to your fulrang panels,Right
Thanks
Thanks for the high resolution pic
I am kinda surprised the MOSFET isn't insulated from the heatsink.
I guess as long as nobody gets the bright idea to ground the heatsink while an amplifier is driving the speaker no harm would come of it.
Looks like the circuit I have been experimenting with is essentially the same as the one in your pic. The only difference being the bridge rectifier.
The ML diode bridge is made up of 1N4502 general purpose diodes(3A/200V).
I have been using a 30A bridge rectifier because I am limiting a full range ESL rather than just hybrid where you can take advantage of the pulse current capability of the smaller/cheaper 3A diodes.
Can you read the part number off of the zener diode? I'm kinda curious as to what threshold they used for their limiter.
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Dec4
Thanks for the pix,in my setup SL3s with the Ascent i crossovers the Dec4 if in
It has a Mosfet Sound with the Big Krell 600 the Dec4 runs in class A,Get rell hot.Mosfet sound well like some of Pass 30 SE amps .This is my hearing .But i like 60-80 tube watts Or a Krell KST 100 ss amp an my highoutput panels i can do this so Dec4 it out most of the time,
In fullrang ESL the Dec4 on the bass Tranfourmer in the Acoustat it let me get more ouput,i like It,
The More inFo the better on the Old logans Lots Bang for the buck
Thanks for the pix,in my setup SL3s with the Ascent i crossovers the Dec4 if in
It has a Mosfet Sound with the Big Krell 600 the Dec4 runs in class A,Get rell hot.Mosfet sound well like some of Pass 30 SE amps .This is my hearing .But i like 60-80 tube watts Or a Krell KST 100 ss amp an my highoutput panels i can do this so Dec4 it out most of the time,
In fullrang ESL the Dec4 on the bass Tranfourmer in the Acoustat it let me get more ouput,i like It,
The More inFo the better on the Old logans Lots Bang for the buck
Tyu: If the DEC-4 is a limiter and one can hear it all the time, then perhaps I'll disconnect it. (Honestly I had not even thought about it and assumed it was part of the 'music sensor' switch-on circuit.)
As Ascent has higher xo point (280 v 250 on SL3) I don't think modding the xo is an option for me right now (mainly because I want to go active on the bass -- but keep the passive xo with the EQ on the ESL). But I'm open-minded to try almost anything....
As Ascent has higher xo point (280 v 250 on SL3) I don't think modding the xo is an option for me right now (mainly because I want to go active on the bass -- but keep the passive xo with the EQ on the ESL). But I'm open-minded to try almost anything....
SL3
What i think you would wont to do is get the res.for the panel in front of the Cap,Jim powers was the man who did all the crossover in the older ML
The Ascent are the same ,Res.3 2ohm20w on the sl3 are in front of the cap an thay Ring.
Next i would get theTurn on off OUT of the input to the speakers,i ran two rat-shak 12v tranfourmer an keep the panel on all the time,the panels have more output this way, an i think that thay get more dust off than on,
next thay were 3 setups on the sl3 Panels do you no if your panels have 4 wires or 3?
An thay did away with the earth post on the AC comeing in to the panel .
if your has the earth come in cut it out on the bias board,it going to the grond of your amp,sounds better out, jim did away with it.
All this can be put back if you dont like.
Next is the panel tranfourmers setup there are 2 ways your 3wire 4wire well tell what you have, i have all the info on most of the old setups that work the best
What i think you would wont to do is get the res.for the panel in front of the Cap,Jim powers was the man who did all the crossover in the older ML
The Ascent are the same ,Res.3 2ohm20w on the sl3 are in front of the cap an thay Ring.
Next i would get theTurn on off OUT of the input to the speakers,i ran two rat-shak 12v tranfourmer an keep the panel on all the time,the panels have more output this way, an i think that thay get more dust off than on,
next thay were 3 setups on the sl3 Panels do you no if your panels have 4 wires or 3?
An thay did away with the earth post on the AC comeing in to the panel .
if your has the earth come in cut it out on the bias board,it going to the grond of your amp,sounds better out, jim did away with it.
All this can be put back if you dont like.
Next is the panel tranfourmers setup there are 2 ways your 3wire 4wire well tell what you have, i have all the info on most of the old setups that work the best
My experience with the limiter circuit is that it does not affect the audio signal at all as long as the signal amplitude is below the limiting threshold. In all honesty with really power amplifiers for which the limiter is needed, dynamic transients sound cleaner with the limiter than without. This is because without the limiter, the air in the gap conducts and you hear a hashy static sound or the crack of an arc depending on how well your stators are insulated.
Obviously the circuit does add a very small (ie high impedance) load to the amplifer, much less than any other crossover component or the amount the transformer input impedance swings with input signal amplitude. Also the point of application is at a very low impedance point in the crossover circuit just after the damping resistor. Measured performance comparisons(response, harmonic and intermod distortion) with and without the limiter are unchanged right up to the limiter threshold.
This was the reason I was asking what the part number was on the Zener diode in your limiter. Tyu had posted that adding the limiter affected the quality of the sound he was hearing which I found to only be possibly if the limter threshold set by the zener was exceeded.
I'm going to try to break down your post into separate topics.
I see that Ascent moves the 30uF cap out in front of the LCR leg, but to accomplish the same on SL3 and keep xo at 250 would mean redesigning the LCR (notch) and also the LR 6dB/oct high-pass section (LX2, RX6 in SL3 schema), and I don't have the filter design knowledge or tools to analyze this.
(Ascent also adds a little 5uF+1R in // with the main 1R (3R//3R//3R), which I think is a small hf boost....?)
When you say "ring," you mean the main R's ring? Is it because they're wire wound R's (as I have non-inductive metal oxide film resistors ready to go in instead).
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Well, maybe the dust at your house is of opposite charge than here! Under frequent use, over a couple of weeks I can watch the dust build up: It starts with one fiber in the gap, which accelerates the dust build-up at that local point until the panel is 'spotty' with dust. (When I saw this the first few times I thought I had some kind of insect infestation, as it looks like tiny moths exploded!)
On the other hand if the panels are off (like when coming back after a long trip), the dust is evenly deposited by gravity....
Here's an excerpt from an ML document (sl3stat.doc):
"(ON LATER VERSIONS WITH 4 TERMINAL CONNECTORS, MATCH THE COLOR OF WIRE WITH THE COLOR ALREADY CONNECTED TO THE TERMINAL.
IF YOU ARE INSTALLING A NEW PANEL (4 WIRE) TO AN OLDER UNIT WITH ONLY 3 CONNECTORS, GROUP THE TWO BLUE WIRES INTO THE SAME SCREW TERMINAL.)"
So that suggests to me that it is new replacement panels that have 4 wires? (as mine are the last year -- 2001-- for SL3, and they have original panels with 3 wires.)
The panel res in front of the caps Ring because there geting full rang,if the cap is in front the res thay well only see 200h-up, not full rang,no ringing.Sounds better pre jim Powers
As for the panel on all the time, the bias is netive,most rooms are pos-charged thats why thay make the bias neg.
But that not all the panels are only feed bias on the right side.That means the the right panel has to feed all the way across the panel,you hear the left panel at the bias feed piont ,the left well allways have more output.The longer there on the more output the Right panel well have an the better thay sound( to me).Acoustat Quad, the best ESL i have ever had stay on all the time.An if you go on trip just unplug from the back of the speakers
Now as for the 4wire an the 3wire ,the front of the panel has 2 blue wire go to the same place,i well post a pix one setup of the transfourmer gives more output to the panel the cen tape is not used,like most ESL
As for the limiter all you have to do is lift one of the wires off the DEC-4 if you dont like put it back,it eats power. that all it dose a lot of the SL3 an reQust an others never had the dec-4s,
All this can be put back to stock EZE
As for the panel on all the time, the bias is netive,most rooms are pos-charged thats why thay make the bias neg.
But that not all the panels are only feed bias on the right side.That means the the right panel has to feed all the way across the panel,you hear the left panel at the bias feed piont ,the left well allways have more output.The longer there on the more output the Right panel well have an the better thay sound( to me).Acoustat Quad, the best ESL i have ever had stay on all the time.An if you go on trip just unplug from the back of the speakers
Now as for the 4wire an the 3wire ,the front of the panel has 2 blue wire go to the same place,i well post a pix one setup of the transfourmer gives more output to the panel the cen tape is not used,like most ESL
As for the limiter all you have to do is lift one of the wires off the DEC-4 if you dont like put it back,it eats power. that all it dose a lot of the SL3 an reQust an others never had the dec-4s,
All this can be put back to stock EZE
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4 wire 3wire setup
Here is the setup for the 3wire-4wire look at the panel side,the center tap is not in the setup,just the two ends of the transfourmer are gronded not the center tap,this gives more output in any ESL i have used it in Acoustats an SoundLab get about 3db more output,
I have two pr of the SL3 here one Has the 3wire on has 4 wire,the 3 wire has the center tap gronded an theDEC-4,the 4 wire has this setup an no DEC4,Now in this pix the crossover is not there but the panel side is the same as if it was,
Here is the setup for the 3wire-4wire look at the panel side,the center tap is not in the setup,just the two ends of the transfourmer are gronded not the center tap,this gives more output in any ESL i have used it in Acoustats an SoundLab get about 3db more output,
I have two pr of the SL3 here one Has the 3wire on has 4 wire,the 3 wire has the center tap gronded an theDEC-4,the 4 wire has this setup an no DEC4,Now in this pix the crossover is not there but the panel side is the same as if it was,
Attachments
![sl3xc%20crossoverdiagram[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/212/212488-4b0c1bca8ea4680fea5c3b021e9991b0.jpg)
Jim Powers
So when i went to ML to get the transfourmer panels setup for the SL3s this is what i got.
I called jim an sead this is not what i had in my SL3s he let me in on the deal,thay only wonted people to see this setup with the center tap gronded,the none center tap setup has more output, more the better for most panels
So when i went to ML to get the transfourmer panels setup for the SL3s this is what i got.
I called jim an sead this is not what i had in my SL3s he let me in on the deal,thay only wonted people to see this setup with the center tap gronded,the none center tap setup has more output, more the better for most panels
SL3s
bolserst
My experience with the limiter circuit is that it does not affect the audio signal at all as long as the signal amplitude is below the limiting threshold. In all honesty with really power amplifiers for which the limiter is needed, dynamic transients sound cleaner with the limiter than without. This is because without the limiter, the air in the gap conducts and you hear a hashy static sound or the crack of an arc depending on how well your stators are insulated.
You are runing Full-rang Esls right,Your limier is diff.anyone here can hear the Dec-4 in or out on the highend like the SL3,an as i sead the thing gets Hot on most any input.
Thanks for you info
bolserst
My experience with the limiter circuit is that it does not affect the audio signal at all as long as the signal amplitude is below the limiting threshold. In all honesty with really power amplifiers for which the limiter is needed, dynamic transients sound cleaner with the limiter than without. This is because without the limiter, the air in the gap conducts and you hear a hashy static sound or the crack of an arc depending on how well your stators are insulated.
You are runing Full-rang Esls right,Your limier is diff.anyone here can hear the Dec-4 in or out on the highend like the SL3,an as i sead the thing gets Hot on most any input.
Thanks for you info
My limiter uses exactly the same circuit as the ML Dec-4. Full range or hybrid operation does not change the operation of the limiter. The only possible difference would be what the voltage threshold is for the limiter to start working. The MOSFET in the limiter will only get hot when the input voltage exceeds the voltage threshold set by the zener diode. Mine does not get hot at all unless I use an amplifer > 300W/8ohm.
If you say your SL3 limiter gets hot with most any input, then ML must have set the voltage threshold for activating the limiter quite low. We will wait to see what part number Andersonix pulls of the zener diode in his limiters.
So your ESl have two tranfourmers in parell for ea.panel,not setup like the acoustats,one for the highs one for the lowes, as i have seadDec-4 sounds good in but i have found that more output out of the panels Gives better bass an sounds better to me,the tube amp i have on the SL3 with out pushing it is a round 10vac at input to the panels.
Do your panes stay bias,es all the time
Thanks
Do your panes stay bias,es all the time
Thanks
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