Stixx said:
Experiencing NOTHING? How so? If you mean experiencing the Manger subjectivly, well then what of it? I'd guess that very few people have heard a Manger driver.. In fact I'd go so far to say that this is one of the primary reasons for a forum like this - so that those who have can share their impressions. (The alternative is absurd.. that everone would have access to the driver to make their own subjective impression.)
Alternativly I'd guess that many who participate here have experienced subjectivly a large variety of differening drivers. In this instance then there is a great deal of "EXPERIENCING" going on. (And yes, though I have not heard the Manger, I have heard a great many drivers AND have measured several.)
If your problem is with credible theorizing itself without subjective assesment - then so be it, but please - keep it to yourself precisely because it adds no value to the forum. I could understand an objection IF the theory wasn't credible, but part of this forum's purpose (and in general an "age of reasoning" itself) is to theorize WHY something does - what it does. (or in this case why a driver might sound the way it does.)
What does Theory mean?
the-o-ry
1.a.Systematicically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances, esp. a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, pridict, or otherwise esplain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.
b.Such knowledge or such a system distinguished from experiment or practice.
2.Abstrsct reasoning; speculation.
3.An assumtion or guess based on limited information or knowledge.
We all theorize in one fashion or another.
Stixx said:
the-o-ry
1.a.Systematicically organized knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances, esp. a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, pridict, or otherwise esplain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.
b.Such knowledge or such a system distinguished from experiment or practice.
2.Abstrsct reasoning; speculation.
3.An assumtion or guess based on limited information or knowledge.
We all theorize in one fashion or another.
I agree with ScottG that a forum like this can be quite useful to someone who wants to hear of another's experience .... say, of the Manger driver. This thread began with someone asking others' experiences of the Manger, then derailed somewhat over discussions about the effect of dispersion etc. I hope we are agreed that the Manger's limited dispersion accounts for only a part of the overall Manger sound. An important element of that sound I attempted to describe was the manner the Manger reproduces high frequencies, which I find quite different from any other type of driver I've heard. I assume, from my experience, that until one actually hears the Manger, one can understand in only a limited way any such descriptions. I had, after all, read everything I could about the Manger before purchasing them; descriptions of the Manger's character made sense only after hearing them. This, I think, was Stixx's point, which I find not controversial.
Guys,
After melting my first pair of Mangers ... all I can say was that they stay clean to the bitter end!
(I think using a Crown K2 was a bit of a no-no .. but my 4BSST was in another country)
In the HFNRR heathrow show in Oct 2004, the Overkill setup with the geoidic cast head and a 12" bass unit is a great mix. best sound at the show by miles.
They cross them at 200Hz with a 100db / deacade DSP filter.
After my experimenting, I would say that a super steep cutoff around 240Hz reduces the distortion even more - (I couldn't afford thre 3k$ on the DSP crossover, and the av123 R-DES module still aint out, and SOCS wasn't available either).
The main thing to say is that these tweeters are amazing. My last pair of Ravens (the r2) were ilifelike too, but you needed to cross them too high to be fun - I also manged to destroy them when I totalled the Ultima 8-(.
I use Dire Straits track 2 (brothers in arms i think) where the intro gets louder and lounder .... the mangers donts strain at alll ... and it scares the living daylights out of listeners - scared that the sound just keep getting louder. Their heart rate goes up, and they turn to you, hands clenthed... This you only get when the distortion levell remains constant. (I want my ... I want my I want my Mangers To be reVitalised)
Theres another track in the Shamen CD (carcky grey/black) which this crazy crazy HF music that really shows what mangers can do. (around track 13 me thinks) Whoa. makes the Whole room feel like a 3d effects module. Dynamic range and effortless sound just makes you want to go through your entire collection.
The mangers are very pricey ... but amazing.
Many many thangs to Mr Pass, Phase accurate and the rest of you that helped me with diagrams and suggested cross over points.
I'd rather listen to the speakers (mangers + Tumults) than my N801s .... its sounds that much more open and alive.
LoL.
Tuckshop Tony.
After melting my first pair of Mangers ... all I can say was that they stay clean to the bitter end!
(I think using a Crown K2 was a bit of a no-no .. but my 4BSST was in another country)
In the HFNRR heathrow show in Oct 2004, the Overkill setup with the geoidic cast head and a 12" bass unit is a great mix. best sound at the show by miles.
They cross them at 200Hz with a 100db / deacade DSP filter.
After my experimenting, I would say that a super steep cutoff around 240Hz reduces the distortion even more - (I couldn't afford thre 3k$ on the DSP crossover, and the av123 R-DES module still aint out, and SOCS wasn't available either).
The main thing to say is that these tweeters are amazing. My last pair of Ravens (the r2) were ilifelike too, but you needed to cross them too high to be fun - I also manged to destroy them when I totalled the Ultima 8-(.
I use Dire Straits track 2 (brothers in arms i think) where the intro gets louder and lounder .... the mangers donts strain at alll ... and it scares the living daylights out of listeners - scared that the sound just keep getting louder. Their heart rate goes up, and they turn to you, hands clenthed... This you only get when the distortion levell remains constant. (I want my ... I want my I want my Mangers To be reVitalised)
Theres another track in the Shamen CD (carcky grey/black) which this crazy crazy HF music that really shows what mangers can do. (around track 13 me thinks) Whoa. makes the Whole room feel like a 3d effects module. Dynamic range and effortless sound just makes you want to go through your entire collection.
The mangers are very pricey ... but amazing.
Many many thangs to Mr Pass, Phase accurate and the rest of you that helped me with diagrams and suggested cross over points.
I'd rather listen to the speakers (mangers + Tumults) than my N801s .... its sounds that much more open and alive.
LoL.
Tuckshop Tony.
Charles,
According to Manger Germany.
The dampers are destroyed.
The coils are melted
The magnets have corroded
The backplate has rusted
The membrane looks damaged,
The cost of repair would as expensive as buying new ones,!
They were puzzled how i managed to get them so coroded (they were only a few months old).
... next time I let my teak spheres dry out before I mount the units!
Any want to buy two $700 frisbies that don't fly very well ;-)
Cheers,
Tuckshop
According to Manger Germany.
The dampers are destroyed.
The coils are melted
The magnets have corroded
The backplate has rusted
The membrane looks damaged,
The cost of repair would as expensive as buying new ones,!
They were puzzled how i managed to get them so coroded (they were only a few months old).
... next time I let my teak spheres dry out before I mount the units!
Any want to buy two $700 frisbies that don't fly very well ;-)
Cheers,
Tuckshop
Well, I had wanted to get my hands on damaged units to try modifications to the motor design, but there is no point in trying on something this fried.
I have 80 and 90 dB distortion plots of the MSW. Those second and third harmonic peaks go up considerably with SPL. Higher order distortion is pretty benign.
Greetings,
Eric
I have 80 and 90 dB distortion plots of the MSW. Those second and third harmonic peaks go up considerably with SPL. Higher order distortion is pretty benign.
Greetings,
Eric
Eric,
I know the distortion increases far more that the HF drive units on my N801 ... but it somehow sounds more real and less brittle.
Comparing to the JM Labs Mezzo Utopia, I would say that Mezzo sounds end more real at low volumes, but when you turn it up, the Mezzo sounds llike its struggling and just does feel like the dynamic range is available.
At low volumes, I set the crossover to 180Hz. At Higher volumes, I set it to 400Hz.
My thinking now is to do a 7.1 surround sound using Mangers (that should keep the SPL / drive unit in check) .. and augment my Tumults with .... Parthernon (structual checks aside).
Hmm .. must get some more techno tracks. What were they playing in the "Blood Bath" scene in Blade 1?
Gregm: Not sure what OB is? Open box? Over Bath?
I know someone has tried having them dangling on strings from the ceiling ...
Tuckshop
I know the distortion increases far more that the HF drive units on my N801 ... but it somehow sounds more real and less brittle.
Comparing to the JM Labs Mezzo Utopia, I would say that Mezzo sounds end more real at low volumes, but when you turn it up, the Mezzo sounds llike its struggling and just does feel like the dynamic range is available.
At low volumes, I set the crossover to 180Hz. At Higher volumes, I set it to 400Hz.
My thinking now is to do a 7.1 surround sound using Mangers (that should keep the SPL / drive unit in check) .. and augment my Tumults with .... Parthernon (structual checks aside).
Hmm .. must get some more techno tracks. What were they playing in the "Blood Bath" scene in Blade 1?
Gregm: Not sure what OB is? Open box? Over Bath?
I know someone has tried having them dangling on strings from the ceiling ...
Tuckshop
Gregm,
Open Baffle. Doh! Of course it is. If only it was a TLA i'd have probably guessed. Ho hum
Yes I have tried a Completely open baffle. You get less volume.
Manger have a long thin thing which on which they've mounted a single solitary unit. They reckon it has a response down to 90hz. Hmmm I'm not so sure that you gain more than you lose.
I also reckon that the mechanical sound of the back of the manger is more noisy than heard through the front - just a thought.
Tu(r)ck(i)sh(h2)op(redilictor).
Open Baffle. Doh! Of course it is. If only it was a TLA i'd have probably guessed. Ho hum
Yes I have tried a Completely open baffle. You get less volume.
Manger have a long thin thing which on which they've mounted a single solitary unit. They reckon it has a response down to 90hz. Hmmm I'm not so sure that you gain more than you lose.
I also reckon that the mechanical sound of the back of the manger is more noisy than heard through the front - just a thought.
Tu(r)ck(i)sh(h2)op(redilictor).
I have been building loudspeakers since I was a kid. I bought two Manger drivers almost 20 years ago when I was a physics student without having heard them and without really having the money (!) just because I loved the theory of this system. I built a two-way system then. In the low end the Mangers were supported by a two-driver Podszus-Görlich compound system (German manufacturer). When I first heard them I was disappointed. After a few weeks I thought that they were ok. After a few months I got addicted. Unfortunately, some years ago they were destroyed by friends of my daughter. 
Since then, I haven't heard a speaker that I really liked. It seems that the addiction does not fade away. After a long pause, I restarted DIY audio last year. When I have completed my 5 Aleph-X this year, I will again build some Mangers. You will probably hear from me, but be patient.
And yes: they sound clean until the end (whatever the distortion measurements say); aj_newman is absolutely right. You cannot describe this speaker, you have to listen to it - but not only for a few hours.
Since then, I haven't heard a speaker that I really liked. It seems that the addiction does not fade away. After a long pause, I restarted DIY audio last year. When I have completed my 5 Aleph-X this year, I will again build some Mangers. You will probably hear from me, but be patient.
And yes: they sound clean until the end (whatever the distortion measurements say); aj_newman is absolutely right. You cannot describe this speaker, you have to listen to it - but not only for a few hours.