Scottmoose said:
Again, I don't know what dims you're looking at for the Lowthers, as a few have floated around. With GM's Lowther dims this should be a non-issue.
39" shouldn't be a problem either, but most of the 8"'s will be much higher. The Fostex designs, for example, look to be around 50" off the floor. Of course most of these drivers sound best off axis, in my opinions some will be hardly tolerable even then due to the excessive treble.
However, having experimented with driver height considerably (with the same set of drivers), I can unequivically say that drivers above listening height sound really weird to me (low driver position is less odd). I am constantly looking up when listening. As I cross the axis in front of my listening position, properly adjusting the treble balance by finding the best off axis angle is easy no matter the driver height. However, nothing can keep those high drivers from sounding too far off the ground.
No need for snotty comments. You seem to have misunderstood my first post, so I felt the need to be explicitly clear. You also may have no problem with sound coming from an unnatural place. Some folks like the front row of a movie theater too. For every sonic fault, there is someone seemingly impervious to it. This one bothers me, so I thought I'd warn anybody considering building the big 'uns.
pj
I beg your pardon? I have an ironic sense of humor, as you've probably noticed, but nothing I've ever posted is intended to be insulting. Quite the reverse. I've got better things to do with my time than waste it writing offensive remarks about people. Sorry you took anything I wrote that way.
Yes, the driver height in the above DX2 cabinet Greg designed should be a good compromise for in-room listening. BTW -the zdriver position listed puts the driver 39in from the ground, depending on build material (that's why I mentioned the 39in from the ground). It's actually the same length & position as TC's old 1354 cabinet.
Re the height of most of the 8in ones -kind of. I designed (if you can call it that) a goodly proportion of the BIBs on the Zilla pages -the ones I didn't do GM did. When I got to the 8in drivers, I'd had a few requests not to compromise line-length & retain full half-wave tuning down to measured Fs, or as near as practicable, which is why most of them are so tall. As you note, it can theoreticaly be of use for some units, being pushed off axis, & some people don't seem to mind it, but as it happens, I don't like it much myself either. A couple of inches fine, a foot or two? Nah, not for me. I've mentioned this before a few times on the main BIB page, but the posts not surprisingly get lost in that monster: you can chop all of them, aside from the hemp and B200 cabinets, down to the same 138in (70in tall cabinet) as the original, and the DX2 Lowther cab mentioned here. Looses a bit of extension, but easier to live with, and 226Hz is plenty for most people.
I really should see if we can upgrade the BIB pages at some point to include Greg's folding sheet etc & re-work the intro a bit, but time is the problem.
The DX2 box is shorter because the driver actually has a pretty high Fs compared to, say, an FE206E -very few of the measured T/S parameters are anything like those Lowther claim on their site. The ones I use (and I believe GM use) are those measured by, and listed on, Martin King's site.
Yes, the driver height in the above DX2 cabinet Greg designed should be a good compromise for in-room listening. BTW -the zdriver position listed puts the driver 39in from the ground, depending on build material (that's why I mentioned the 39in from the ground). It's actually the same length & position as TC's old 1354 cabinet.
Re the height of most of the 8in ones -kind of. I designed (if you can call it that) a goodly proportion of the BIBs on the Zilla pages -the ones I didn't do GM did. When I got to the 8in drivers, I'd had a few requests not to compromise line-length & retain full half-wave tuning down to measured Fs, or as near as practicable, which is why most of them are so tall. As you note, it can theoreticaly be of use for some units, being pushed off axis, & some people don't seem to mind it, but as it happens, I don't like it much myself either. A couple of inches fine, a foot or two? Nah, not for me. I've mentioned this before a few times on the main BIB page, but the posts not surprisingly get lost in that monster: you can chop all of them, aside from the hemp and B200 cabinets, down to the same 138in (70in tall cabinet) as the original, and the DX2 Lowther cab mentioned here. Looses a bit of extension, but easier to live with, and 226Hz is plenty for most people.
I really should see if we can upgrade the BIB pages at some point to include Greg's folding sheet etc & re-work the intro a bit, but time is the problem. The DX2 box is shorter because the driver actually has a pretty high Fs compared to, say, an FE206E -very few of the measured T/S parameters are anything like those Lowther claim on their site. The ones I use (and I believe GM use) are those measured by, and listed on, Martin King's site.
Greets!
Different strokes........ though other than the odd amphitheater, just about every place I've listened to live music they were either on a stage above me or they were standing/me sitting, ditto movies, so looking up a bit is more natural than looking at other angles. That said, there are limits and then there's floor bounce and eigenmode (standing wave) differences to consider that audibly effect the presentation. If they're way off axis, then of course they need to be angled down to address all these issues, since as you note, over toeing/whatever alone isn't going to work.
Really, some of the best sounding systems I've done were truly corner loaded, either at the ceiling or floor, with a fairly convincing 3D sound field with a good recording, so if there's no visual cues most folks didn't have a clue where the speakers are.
GM
Different strokes........ though other than the odd amphitheater, just about every place I've listened to live music they were either on a stage above me or they were standing/me sitting, ditto movies, so looking up a bit is more natural than looking at other angles. That said, there are limits and then there's floor bounce and eigenmode (standing wave) differences to consider that audibly effect the presentation. If they're way off axis, then of course they need to be angled down to address all these issues, since as you note, over toeing/whatever alone isn't going to work.
Really, some of the best sounding systems I've done were truly corner loaded, either at the ceiling or floor, with a fairly convincing 3D sound field with a good recording, so if there's no visual cues most folks didn't have a clue where the speakers are.
GM
No insult taken, Scottmoose. I prefer to sit in the balcony or an orchestra hall. In Chicago's Orchestra Hall one ends up looking past their knees to see the ensemble. Though I spend more time listening to anything but orchestral music, I rarely hear rock or blues live. Seems every show I go to is not only far too loud (I'm 27, and my ears are done dealin' after 16K), but they've pushed the P.A. far beyond its limits (is that what 100% THD sounds like?). Even my Etyomtic Research ear plugs take the fun out of it.
I had indeed forgotten they (with exceptions like mine) could all be taken to 138". I also didn't know if you were thinking of GM's Lowther dims, as another post of yours (in a different thread) had caused me to question.
In any case, we best get back on topic.
pj
I had indeed forgotten they (with exceptions like mine) could all be taken to 138". I also didn't know if you were thinking of GM's Lowther dims, as another post of yours (in a different thread) had caused me to question.
In any case, we best get back on topic.
pj
I know that feeling. I'm 28 & lucky enough to still be able to hear up to 21KHz, but at the rate I'm going that's not going to last much longer... Far too many amplified concerts seem to be going for record dbs these days, without there really seeming to be a reason for it. In my hall of infamy is a Counting Crows session I attended, which was so loud I had to walk out -it was physically painful, and that was with earplugs. I tend to go to smaller venues now, rocker though I was, and remain, where the limits seem to be better understood.
It aggrivates me to no end. I'd like to go to shows. When you put ear plugs in, you truely realize how the PA has exceeded it's limits. I didn't loose any hearing at rock shows though. Orchestral brass sections are really, really loud. (A youth of old farm equipment and shotguns didn't help either.) But, folks that claim you need an enormous dynamic range to reproduce what the audience hears at an orchestral concert are full of it, IMHO. Though I've yet pull out a meter at a concert, it just isn't very loud in most of the hall. One does, however, need a system with a nonexistent noise floor. Damn my stupid disc transport.
last o.t. post, I swear.
pj
last o.t. post, I swear.
pj
Don't get me started on what's happened to orchestras of late. Far too many have gone for volume of sound to fill big halls. The racket they put out is apalling. I couldn't agree more about the brass -I almost always find it painful to listen to now.
I never answered your question from a couple of posts back, so:
the BIB I was talking about was GM's -I've done a few Lowther versions of my own, but I can't remember their exact dims.(I've done so many BIBs I've lost track). Line length will have been the same as GMs or very close as that's dictated by the driver Fs. If fallible memory serves, Greg prefered a larger cabinet for his Lowther suggestions with a little series resistance (high resistance wire should sort that), as seen on the Zilla pages, while I tended to go with a smaller cabinet volume with no additional resistance. Simulated 1/2 space response for the two boxes are similar. Greg's are probably (almost certainly) the better speakers -the smaller size I use comes from trying to minimise the footprint so more people can get away with a pair. Then again, if you're able to justify 70in tall enclosures to the SO, a 1/3 larger footprint probably won't be much of a problem, especially as they're designed to be shoved into corners.
I never answered your question from a couple of posts back, so:
the BIB I was talking about was GM's -I've done a few Lowther versions of my own, but I can't remember their exact dims.(I've done so many BIBs I've lost track). Line length will have been the same as GMs or very close as that's dictated by the driver Fs. If fallible memory serves, Greg prefered a larger cabinet for his Lowther suggestions with a little series resistance (high resistance wire should sort that), as seen on the Zilla pages, while I tended to go with a smaller cabinet volume with no additional resistance. Simulated 1/2 space response for the two boxes are similar. Greg's are probably (almost certainly) the better speakers -the smaller size I use comes from trying to minimise the footprint so more people can get away with a pair. Then again, if you're able to justify 70in tall enclosures to the SO, a 1/3 larger footprint probably won't be much of a problem, especially as they're designed to be shoved into corners.
Greets!
21 kHz?! You're male? The only two adult folks I've known (young women) that heard this high couldn't listen to a good FM tuner without using EQ to roll-off the >16 kHz BW at >12 dB/octave.
Can't comment about music levels around the world, but probably excluding small clubs/grunge bands, concert levels are lower than when I frequented them back in the '80s when both manufacturers and a number of bands were competing for loudest. Deep Purple at the Fox theater in Alanta averaged ~125 dB after the ramp up and the finale crescendo topped 140 dB according to one of the local Altec dist. personnel involved. I spent ~the last half of it in the lobby. My personal peak was at Atlanta Rhythm Section's '75 Road Atlanta 'Dog Day's' Album debut concert that featured six hours of prelim bands, each a bit louder than the last.
By midnight, the SPLs had reached levels that required me to move a good 50-60 yds way off axis to keep from pegging my SLM, when ARS's Paul Goddard (bassist) comes out and starts playing short lead guitar riffs, then flipping over his guitar, which had something like 'louder?' painted on it. Of course the totally stoned/drunk crowd (the 'Dixie Dew' did a fine job of containing the 'Purple Haze' close to the ground) close enough to see it hollered for more, so PG would make a big production out of going over and cranking the gain controls of two racks of amps up a notch until eventually they were all maxxed out and the concert commenced. By then, I had worked my way backwards until I was up at the top of the hill above them ~a 1/4 mi. away. Later I learned that the City of Flowery Branch several miles away filed a complaint and combined with the >2400 injured folks (some life threatening, which they weren't prepared for) passing through the 'Quack Shack' (basic medical facility) that was the first and last major concert there AFAIK.
For sheer ear damaging SPL though, these were quite mild compared to all the time I spent around steam locomotives, various high explosives, unmuffled two-stroke cycle and cart racers, Indy, Top Fuel, etc., racers, WWII thru Vietnam era military aircraft.......... Then there was the '69 moon launch that even at ~3 mi away with ear plugs and mirrored sunglasses it was a religious experience. All things considered, it's amazing I'm not already wearing 'stereo' hearing aids, though if it continues to degrade like it has the last few years it won't be long.
GM
21 kHz?! You're male? The only two adult folks I've known (young women) that heard this high couldn't listen to a good FM tuner without using EQ to roll-off the >16 kHz BW at >12 dB/octave.
Can't comment about music levels around the world, but probably excluding small clubs/grunge bands, concert levels are lower than when I frequented them back in the '80s when both manufacturers and a number of bands were competing for loudest. Deep Purple at the Fox theater in Alanta averaged ~125 dB after the ramp up and the finale crescendo topped 140 dB according to one of the local Altec dist. personnel involved. I spent ~the last half of it in the lobby. My personal peak was at Atlanta Rhythm Section's '75 Road Atlanta 'Dog Day's' Album debut concert that featured six hours of prelim bands, each a bit louder than the last.
By midnight, the SPLs had reached levels that required me to move a good 50-60 yds way off axis to keep from pegging my SLM, when ARS's Paul Goddard (bassist) comes out and starts playing short lead guitar riffs, then flipping over his guitar, which had something like 'louder?' painted on it. Of course the totally stoned/drunk crowd (the 'Dixie Dew' did a fine job of containing the 'Purple Haze' close to the ground
) close enough to see it hollered for more, so PG would make a big production out of going over and cranking the gain controls of two racks of amps up a notch until eventually they were all maxxed out and the concert commenced. By then, I had worked my way backwards until I was up at the top of the hill above them ~a 1/4 mi. away. Later I learned that the City of Flowery Branch several miles away filed a complaint and combined with the >2400 injured folks (some life threatening, which they weren't prepared for) passing through the 'Quack Shack' (basic medical facility) that was the first and last major concert there AFAIK. For sheer ear damaging SPL though, these were quite mild compared to all the time I spent around steam locomotives, various high explosives, unmuffled two-stroke cycle and cart racers, Indy, Top Fuel, etc., racers, WWII thru Vietnam era military aircraft.......... Then there was the '69 moon launch that even at ~3 mi away with ear plugs and mirrored sunglasses it was a religious experience. All things considered, it's amazing I'm not already wearing 'stereo' hearing aids, though if it continues to degrade like it has the last few years it won't be long.
GM
Ouch. I think I read about that concert somewhere -didn't know you were actually one of the survivors Greg. 
1/4 of a mile away and those kind of SPLs -not good. Loudest thing I ever heard though was an Avro Vulcan on takeoff. I was standing at the end of the runway as it went up -those 4 Olympus engines sounded like armageddon. I didn't have an SPL meter with me (it was over 10 years back and I was still in my late teens) but it must have been serious -set off every alarm on the base and a few windows decided to give up the ghost.
I've been incredibly lucky with my hearing, being a bit bat-eared, so I reckon as part of nature's compensation process, I'll loose it that much more quickly. I try to enjoy it while it's still around. I can confirm that (last I checked) I am indeed male, and all parts are still fully connected. Probably explains why I hate bright speakers though as I can still hear the lift they seem to be obsessed with engineering into them at the moment. Oddly though, I've never had a problem with listening to FM. Don't know why. Probably because with the exception of BBC Radio 3 the transmission quality is now so bad anyway that my attention is drawn elsewhere. Still beats our vile DAB (high tech MP2 compression no less, transmitted at bit-rates about 1/2 of what they should be to avoid problems, and that's on the better stations) hands down though.
1/4 of a mile away and those kind of SPLs -not good. Loudest thing I ever heard though was an Avro Vulcan on takeoff. I was standing at the end of the runway as it went up -those 4 Olympus engines sounded like armageddon. I didn't have an SPL meter with me (it was over 10 years back and I was still in my late teens) but it must have been serious -set off every alarm on the base and a few windows decided to give up the ghost. I've been incredibly lucky with my hearing, being a bit bat-eared, so I reckon as part of nature's compensation process, I'll loose it that much more quickly. I try to enjoy it while it's still around.
I can confirm that (last I checked) I am indeed male, and all parts are still fully connected. Probably explains why I hate bright speakers though as I can still hear the lift they seem to be obsessed with engineering into them at the moment. Oddly though, I've never had a problem with listening to FM. Don't know why. Probably because with the exception of BBC Radio 3 the transmission quality is now so bad anyway that my attention is drawn elsewhere. Still beats our vile DAB (high tech MP2 compression no less, transmitted at bit-rates about 1/2 of what they should be to avoid problems, and that's on the better stations) hands down though.Actually, just the opposite is happening in early music recordings.A lot of the current baroque bands don't amount to much more than two desks of violins, one desk of violas and 'cellos, and a single double bass. Also gone is the harpsichord, replaced with a theorbo and/or an archlute. This is probably a good representation of period court orchestras and is a totally different sound from the big band renditions of the late last century. The transparency and clarity coupled with a single driver speaker is captivating.
There are also a lot of good recordings of the Mozart/Haydn era played by orchestras of 40-50 pieces. Also you might look into the Beethoven symphony cycle by Christopher Hogwood.
I know that I am talking about recordings and the original post was about live performance, but still, I'll take a good recording over a bad performance any day. There are so many bad sounding halls, even famous ones. Finding the one good seat is a challenge, and once the performance is amplified, there is no hope.
Bob
Interesting about the baroque & some of the smaller orchestral pieces. Just goes to show how things can vary. I completely agree about a good recording being preferable to a poor performance -there aren't many early music recordings in my collection at present -at the risk of going off topic, any other recommendations Bob? I'll have to investigate some of the Chirstopher Hogwoods you mention.
vitalstates said:
Last OT post to this thread. If you would like to continue, I recommend that you go to the AA Music forum. This is one of the only forums on AA that is not loaded with shills and hyper-opinionated idiots.
Yes -- Academy of Ancient Music. Most everything Hogwood did is good, although the performance practice is now a bit dated. But, you need to hear the Beethoven cycle just to get a feel for what Beethoven actually heard. Compare that to, say, the Szell rendition. You should also look into Hogwood's Mozart compete wind concertos on period instruments, including natural horn. Individually or a three CD set.
If you are into Haydn, try the Franz Brueggen "Paris" and "London" symphonies with the Orchestra of the 18th Century.
Ther are any number of good period instrument baroque bands around. For Vivaldi violin concertos, Giuliano Carmingnola with Andrea Marcon and the Venice Baroque Orchestra is tops. You probably don't need another "Four Seasons", but get his anyway. A bonus is two concertos by Pietro Locatelli that are really good.
If you like a more traditional reading of Vivaldi, try Pinkus Zucherman's the-rest-of Op8 with the English Chamber Orchestra. An interesting touch is a bassoon instead of a 'cello for the continuo part. Zucherman also has a credible rendition of the Mozart violin concertos with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra.
I could go on and on.
Bob
OK, after much procrastination on my part, I am gonna make these.
One question to anyone who knows, the Lowther BIBS seem to have a much larger mouth area than others, dictating a size that will really test WAF.
How would these work if I cut down the mouth area to something like for the Fostex ones, and can I get away without a resistor (weak amp)
Graham
One question to anyone who knows, the Lowther BIBS seem to have a much larger mouth area than others, dictating a size that will really test WAF.
How would these work if I cut down the mouth area to something like for the Fostex ones, and can I get away without a resistor (weak amp)
Graham
Volume of the enclosure is taken as Vb=20*Vas*Qt^1.25
The CSA is the answer to the above equation divided by 0.5 line length.
Therefore, if you have a middling Vas & Qt, then the Vb & thus the footprint of the cabinet will be somewhat larger than what you would have if one, or both, of the aformentioned driver parameters were on the low side. Unfortunately, Lowther's claimed T/S parameters are a little 'optimistic' shall we say. If you reduce the CSA / footprint, you'll loose LF gain & tyhe driver will have to work harder.
GM actually designed this box before he came up with the aforementioned equation, but it should be pretty close.
Best
Scott
The CSA is the answer to the above equation divided by 0.5 line length.
Therefore, if you have a middling Vas & Qt, then the Vb & thus the footprint of the cabinet will be somewhat larger than what you would have if one, or both, of the aformentioned driver parameters were on the low side. Unfortunately, Lowther's claimed T/S parameters are a little 'optimistic' shall we say. If you reduce the CSA / footprint, you'll loose LF gain & tyhe driver will have to work harder.
GM actually designed this box before he came up with the aforementioned equation, but it should be pretty close.
Best
Scott
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