angshudas said:
Yes, this line makes the most sense to me. Audio is not worth it if it means you become a frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic.
However, I am beginning to be a little skeptical about even the "if you can hear it" bit. Most reviewers of equipment (including yours truly; I too have "reviewed" my own audio system on one or two fora) don't have the opportunity to do a double-blind comparative test under scientific test conditions. When I compared my Van den Hull cables with the home-grown ones, or my new Sony DVP-NS900V with the old Yamaha CDX-396, I knew exactly which was playing when. Why, I didn't even compensate for levels between the two CD players.
I can feel a bit comfortable about my reviews of the CD players because I've at least had the opportunity to live with both for many months now, and I can clearly see a difference in listening fatigue; the Sony is much smoother, more delightful. Most of the time, most of us don't get even that opportunity. Therefore, I am beginning to feel very skeptical about differences that I think I can hear. Unless the differences are really obvious, audible even in casual listening, I go with the less expensive alternative. This is the kind of immediately obvious difference I heard when trying out three amps: a Ditton amp, a Cambridge Audio pre/power combo, and a Marantz 6010OSE. We bought the Cambridge Audio set; it was easily more enjoyable, more detailed, than the others. (Of course, I don't know how I would have felt today if I had had the opportunity to live with all three for a few months; maybe my opinion would have changed.)
In this vein, I wonder how different the Jordan JX92S is from the 3" and 4" TangBand drivers? Navin, any comments?
And I agree about quantitative tests being inadequate to capture differences. For instance, reporting just the THD is so limited that even plotting the graph of HD versus base frequency would tell us lots more about what that HD sounds like. Similarly, dynamic IM distortion is more interesting than THD, I feel, specially when one of the two frequencies is a square wave. But I've never seen dynamic IMD being reported plotted against frequency, so I don't know whether this would reveal more. However, I've seen some quantitative tests done with cables (interconnects), where the frequency spectrum of signals passing through both cables were plotted and inspected. No visible difference. It's hard to believe that a $500 interconnect is worth the price if the difference is just some tiny blip visible with a super-sensitive meter.
On the other hand, I'm surprised how much better my SACD albums sound than almost any CD in my collection. The player, amp and speakers remain the same; how does SACD make so much difference? Everybody knows that the 16-bit quantisation of the basic CD is more fine-grained than the noise of the air circulating in most high quality recording studios, and 44.1KHz sampling rate is (in theory) more than twice the range of our hearing (22.05KHz > 20KHz). What gives? My system is not that hot on imaging and soundstage (I guess it's the Wharfedales; others on the Net say so too) but they image beautifully with SACD.
Ah, well. To each his own insanity, I guess.
Tarun
Regarding fuses and relay contacts.
I use fuses all the time to protect
my tweeters, no audible sonic character
that I'm able to notice by adding a fuse.
I push my speakers hard an clip
constantly. Clipping sends more
power to the speakers and if
the speaker can't dissipate the extra
heat, you can blow up the speakers.
Driving speakers beyond mechanic
limits can destroy them too.. So, two
things that destroy speakers - excess
power and excursion, not really clipping.
You can drive a tweeter with a square
wave signal at appropriate power and
not blow it up..
Relay contact issue - this issue is always in debate.. Two concerns.
When the amplifier goes bad and
the relay disconnects the speaker
from the output stage, you can
damage the relay contacts due
to arcing across the contacts.
Or.. the contacts could not open
at all because the arc welded the contacts closed. The last issue is
residue that builds up over time
(lets call it oxide for sake of description) and you need a higher voltage signal
to break the oxide layer.
What do you do? I don't know
what you want to do, but for me,
I have thousands of dollars invested
in drivers and I will use a relay
and fuse my speakers, each one of them.
If the relay goes bad, I replace a
$10 relay.. a much better solution
than replacing expensive speakers.
If the fuse blows, then I replace a
10 cent fuse.. a much better solution
than replacing expensive speakers.
If the relay fails to open, then I have
fuses as a backup protection.
I talked to the Magnecraft relay guru
and he pointed out some interesting information based on real world experiments they do.
1. Silver Cadmimum Oxide contacts
found on high current relays will
have this resistive barrier (call it oxide
for now) that needs beaking with
some extra voltage and current to
arc across the contacts.
2. Gold flashed contacts on Silver Cadmium Oxide. Not recommended
for high current - the small arcing
ruins the gold contact so you are
back to square one.
Gold is used for low current
and shelf life. A gold contact will
most likely work the first time
if the contact was not excercised
for a long time.
Silver Cadmium Oxide contact
may not work the initial time if
the contact was not excercised
(with an small arc to break oxide).
For audio use, if you just turn on
the stereo system to a normal
listening level, you will break the
oxide. The worse case for some
relays is 6 watts maximum..
Another note. If these Silver contacts
are excercised with no current flowing,
the resistive condition still exists. You
need the arc to break the layer.
Paralleling relay contacts.. I talked
to two three very knowlegable
people on this subject and the Magnecraft engineer told me an opposite story of the "norm".
When you parallel contacts, he stated
that in the real world, the majority of the current will flow thru the contact
that engaged first becaue it will have
the least contact resistance.
If you need to draw 20A and you
parallel four 5A contacts, he said
this is not good. One of those contacts
will carry the bulk of 20A and fail eventually, subsequently another contact will take over - chain reaction
type of failure...
If you need to carry 20A and want
redundency, then you should get
a two contact relay with 20A rated
each contact and parallel them.
(this is what I'm going to do).
Verdict ? I took my DPDT 20A per contact relay and did a simple
test. I connect my headphones
to the relay and from the relay
I connected it to my CD player.
The relay uses Silver Cad Oxide contacts, no gold.. The relay worked
flawlessly and there were no audible
characteristics.. The reason for the
test was to see if the contacts
were able to pass a very small signal
through with no audible distortions.
CD player + headphones is what
I consider a small signal... and it worked.
If the relay goes bad over time,
then I replace it...
I use fuses all the time to protect
my tweeters, no audible sonic character
that I'm able to notice by adding a fuse.
I push my speakers hard an clip
constantly. Clipping sends more
power to the speakers and if
the speaker can't dissipate the extra
heat, you can blow up the speakers.
Driving speakers beyond mechanic
limits can destroy them too.. So, two
things that destroy speakers - excess
power and excursion, not really clipping.
You can drive a tweeter with a square
wave signal at appropriate power and
not blow it up..
Relay contact issue - this issue is always in debate.. Two concerns.
When the amplifier goes bad and
the relay disconnects the speaker
from the output stage, you can
damage the relay contacts due
to arcing across the contacts.
Or.. the contacts could not open
at all because the arc welded the contacts closed. The last issue is
residue that builds up over time
(lets call it oxide for sake of description) and you need a higher voltage signal
to break the oxide layer.
What do you do? I don't know
what you want to do, but for me,
I have thousands of dollars invested
in drivers and I will use a relay
and fuse my speakers, each one of them.
If the relay goes bad, I replace a
$10 relay.. a much better solution
than replacing expensive speakers.
If the fuse blows, then I replace a
10 cent fuse.. a much better solution
than replacing expensive speakers.
If the relay fails to open, then I have
fuses as a backup protection.
I talked to the Magnecraft relay guru
and he pointed out some interesting information based on real world experiments they do.
1. Silver Cadmimum Oxide contacts
found on high current relays will
have this resistive barrier (call it oxide
for now) that needs beaking with
some extra voltage and current to
arc across the contacts.
2. Gold flashed contacts on Silver Cadmium Oxide. Not recommended
for high current - the small arcing
ruins the gold contact so you are
back to square one.
Gold is used for low current
and shelf life. A gold contact will
most likely work the first time
if the contact was not excercised
for a long time.
Silver Cadmium Oxide contact
may not work the initial time if
the contact was not excercised
(with an small arc to break oxide).
For audio use, if you just turn on
the stereo system to a normal
listening level, you will break the
oxide. The worse case for some
relays is 6 watts maximum..
Another note. If these Silver contacts
are excercised with no current flowing,
the resistive condition still exists. You
need the arc to break the layer.
Paralleling relay contacts.. I talked
to two three very knowlegable
people on this subject and the Magnecraft engineer told me an opposite story of the "norm".
When you parallel contacts, he stated
that in the real world, the majority of the current will flow thru the contact
that engaged first becaue it will have
the least contact resistance.
If you need to draw 20A and you
parallel four 5A contacts, he said
this is not good. One of those contacts
will carry the bulk of 20A and fail eventually, subsequently another contact will take over - chain reaction
type of failure...
If you need to carry 20A and want
redundency, then you should get
a two contact relay with 20A rated
each contact and parallel them.
(this is what I'm going to do).
Verdict ? I took my DPDT 20A per contact relay and did a simple
test. I connect my headphones
to the relay and from the relay
I connected it to my CD player.
The relay uses Silver Cad Oxide contacts, no gold.. The relay worked
flawlessly and there were no audible
characteristics.. The reason for the
test was to see if the contacts
were able to pass a very small signal
through with no audible distortions.
CD player + headphones is what
I consider a small signal... and it worked.
If the relay goes bad over time,
then I replace it...
tcpip said:
1. where are your reviews published. i dont get AVmax as I found their reviews to be ameturish. I am very selecttive about my reading. so i'd like to know if there are other mags out there with a more professional approach to reviews.
2. I have NOT heard the Jordans or the TBs. I have heard a very good 150mm metal cone driver from the Jordan stable but this was not meant for public comnsumption. based on what i heard these Jordans are quite nice - better than the SS 8546 and 8545 which I at that time were my reference 6-7" drivers. I am trying to convicne them to sell these to India but then India is such a small market. oh well... the old chicken and egg syndrome again.
3. as far as tests are concerend there are NO quantitative tests I know that can explictly define the quality of any audio component (CD, amp , speaker or any other). I kow the guys at Julian Hirch's labs will be willing to wring my neck but all these quantitative tests can do is to tell which component MIGHT perform well and which might not. You can FFT and analuse to your heats content but your ears are defnitely more accurate (even those who have failing HF response) than any analyser available at this time. I feel that WE do NOT know enough about measurements to let objective analysers be the final judge. We might be able to develop processes that can do this but the market is not big enough and profit in this industry is minuscle if any. even aduio engineers have to eat.
ScanSpeak woofers as mid-basses?
I was referring to publishing in online discussion fora, not magazines. And I too have found that I need to "read between the lines" in AVMax. That's to be expected... they're trying to make a commercially successful magazine in the Indian market, where the culture of special-interest magazines itself is new, let alone special interests in audio. How many people in India who buy "stereo systems" actually do any careful listening before buying? In these circumstances, the AVMax becoming ADMax is not very surprising. Given all this, I find that I am able to read between their lines somewhat and extract a bit of insight. Not much, just a little.
I'll see if I can get my bookshelves over to your place, so that you can hear them. I'm sure you'll hear the box as much as the driver, but it'll be better than nothing. The mids are luvverly.
And about not getting the better drivers in India, I've given up hope. You don't even get them in Singapore, let alone India, in spite of all that much greater exposure and more affluence. The only reason you can still get by in S'pore is because it's easy to import stuff, and Customs don't harass you, and postal depts don't steal your parcel. I tried to find ScanSpeak and Vifa drivers in S'pore and I found just one dealer, a small-time outfit (www.leda.com.sg), and they don't have a showroom, it seems. S'pore's electronics parts hub, Simlim Towers (as against Simlim Square for finished goods) is lousy... I couldn't see one outlet dealing in good quality audio components; I had to search high and low to just buy 15uF MKP/MKT capacitors. I spent a lot of time in Adelphi, their high-end audio mall, and it looks like a ghost town. You can't find one outlet with more than three or four brands of stuff, and prices are atrocious (they want to sell at list price! Puhleese!). Simlim Square has more brisk business, but very few serious audio buyers. If this is S'pore's state, what hope do we have in India? Just hope that we can all keep finding business reasons to keep going abroad.
And your usage of ScanSpeak 7" woofers as mids... do they go up to 3K or 4KHz cleanly? How are they in reproducing voices?
I agree. Some people claim that the approach itself (of trying to develop quantitative measures of high audio fidelity) is flawed. They claim that the human ear is always going to be a better judge of audio quality, and can hear things that no instrument can detect. I disagree here. I believe we have not been able to understand what constitutes accurate reproduction sufficiently. Once we know what it's made of, we can easily make instruments which will compare input and output, and tell you how closely they match. In fact I believe that waveform matching (just match the two waveforms) might be a good starting point.
Tarun
navin said:
I was referring to publishing in online discussion fora, not magazines. And I too have found that I need to "read between the lines" in AVMax. That's to be expected... they're trying to make a commercially successful magazine in the Indian market, where the culture of special-interest magazines itself is new, let alone special interests in audio. How many people in India who buy "stereo systems" actually do any careful listening before buying? In these circumstances, the AVMax becoming ADMax is not very surprising.
Given all this, I find that I am able to read between their lines somewhat and extract a bit of insight. Not much, just a little. I'll see if I can get my bookshelves over to your place, so that you can hear them. I'm sure you'll hear the box as much as the driver, but it'll be better than nothing. The mids are luvverly.
And about not getting the better drivers in India, I've given up hope. You don't even get them in Singapore, let alone India, in spite of all that much greater exposure and more affluence. The only reason you can still get by in S'pore is because it's easy to import stuff, and Customs don't harass you, and postal depts don't steal your parcel. I tried to find ScanSpeak and Vifa drivers in S'pore and I found just one dealer, a small-time outfit (www.leda.com.sg), and they don't have a showroom, it seems. S'pore's electronics parts hub, Simlim Towers (as against Simlim Square for finished goods) is lousy... I couldn't see one outlet dealing in good quality audio components; I had to search high and low to just buy 15uF MKP/MKT capacitors. I spent a lot of time in Adelphi, their high-end audio mall, and it looks like a ghost town. You can't find one outlet with more than three or four brands of stuff, and prices are atrocious (they want to sell at list price! Puhleese!). Simlim Square has more brisk business, but very few serious audio buyers. If this is S'pore's state, what hope do we have in India? Just hope that we can all keep finding business reasons to keep going abroad.
And your usage of ScanSpeak 7" woofers as mids... do they go up to 3K or 4KHz cleanly? How are they in reproducing voices?
I agree. Some people claim that the approach itself (of trying to develop quantitative measures of high audio fidelity) is flawed. They claim that the human ear is always going to be a better judge of audio quality, and can hear things that no instrument can detect. I disagree here. I believe we have not been able to understand what constitutes accurate reproduction sufficiently. Once we know what it's made of, we can easily make instruments which will compare input and output, and tell you how closely they match. In fact I believe that waveform matching (just match the two waveforms) might be a good starting point.
Tarun
Re: relays in signal path
Thanks a ton! This is the kind of experience that I have always been keen to hear about. I have heard other serious DIY designers and builders too, and they too say that the differences are either inaudible, or are so minor that even they are not always sure the differences exist.
The data on contact types was very useful. Can you point me to some models/makes, e.g. some items in, say, Digikey's catalogue?
Thanks.
Tarun
thylantyr said:Regarding fuses and relay contacts.
I use fuses all the time to protect
my tweeters, no audible sonic character
that I'm able to notice by adding a fuse.
....
If the relay goes bad over time,
then I replace it...
Thanks a ton!
This is the kind of experience that I have always been keen to hear about. I have heard other serious DIY designers and builders too, and they too say that the differences are either inaudible, or are so minor that even they are not always sure the differences exist.The data on contact types was very useful. Can you point me to some models/makes, e.g. some items in, say, Digikey's catalogue?
Thanks.
Tarun
Speaker relay choices.
Jan D. recommends this relay. I ordered some
and will try it out.
Enter LRZ in the search window.
http://www.amplimo.nl/amplimo.html
He said it's an unique relay with tungsten 100A contacts
shorted by a gold contact after it engages, etc. designed
for speaker usage.
There was some speaker relay discussion here;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=17783
After this discussion, I talked to the Magnecraft engineer
and I decided to either to continue to use my W92 series
Magnecraft or if the LRZ relay. I need a pcb mount relay and
I don't know if I can fit the LRZ ?? We shall see.
I failed to mention that the Magnecraft engineer recommended
the "mercury wetted relays" as the 'best' solution that they
offer if you want the most reliable contact, but it's too big
and is not pcb mount....
Look for MDR series...
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=3
I chose this one for ease of PCB layout.
Magnecraft W92S11D12 series (12v, 24v, or 48v)
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?han...2S11D12*&terms=W92S11D12&Dk=1&D=W92S11D12&N=0
It's a DPDT so I parallel the contacts for redundency.
I've noticed that some high end home amplifiers and
even high powered car amplifiers use the class W90
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=7
The W90's are only SPST or SPDT with similar ratings
as the class W92. Both these types are PCB mount.
The W90 is used alot in industry and it's very low cost.
If you need a pcb mount relay, two of these in parallel
for redundency would be 1/2 the cost of one W92 series.
Another relays that are non-pcb mount...
class 300 with magnetic blowout.
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=1
class W199 with magnetic blowout.
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=3
Choices -> LRZ, MDR, 300, W199
for pcb mount -> W92, W90
Depending on size, coil voltage needed, current, redundency,
wiring, cost, etc., you need to choose on that fits your needs.
The open relay (no enclosure) at least gives you access to
clean the contacts.
Relay Contact Life
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/app_pdfs/13c3236.pdf
Jan D. recommends this relay. I ordered some
and will try it out.
Enter LRZ in the search window.
http://www.amplimo.nl/amplimo.html
He said it's an unique relay with tungsten 100A contacts
shorted by a gold contact after it engages, etc. designed
for speaker usage.
There was some speaker relay discussion here;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=17783
After this discussion, I talked to the Magnecraft engineer
and I decided to either to continue to use my W92 series
Magnecraft or if the LRZ relay. I need a pcb mount relay and
I don't know if I can fit the LRZ ?? We shall see.
I failed to mention that the Magnecraft engineer recommended
the "mercury wetted relays" as the 'best' solution that they
offer if you want the most reliable contact, but it's too big
and is not pcb mount....
Look for MDR series...
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=3
I chose this one for ease of PCB layout.
Magnecraft W92S11D12 series (12v, 24v, or 48v)
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?han...2S11D12*&terms=W92S11D12&Dk=1&D=W92S11D12&N=0
It's a DPDT so I parallel the contacts for redundency.
I've noticed that some high end home amplifiers and
even high powered car amplifiers use the class W90
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=7
The W90's are only SPST or SPDT with similar ratings
as the class W92. Both these types are PCB mount.
The W90 is used alot in industry and it's very low cost.
If you need a pcb mount relay, two of these in parallel
for redundency would be 1/2 the cost of one W92 series.
Another relays that are non-pcb mount...
class 300 with magnetic blowout.
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=1
class W199 with magnetic blowout.
http://www.magnecraft.com/type_results.php?id=3
Choices -> LRZ, MDR, 300, W199
for pcb mount -> W92, W90
Depending on size, coil voltage needed, current, redundency,
wiring, cost, etc., you need to choose on that fits your needs.
The open relay (no enclosure) at least gives you access to
clean the contacts.
Relay Contact Life
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/app_pdfs/13c3236.pdf
Re: ScanSpeak woofers as mid-basses?
1. my speaker are wired into a wall. there is almost no lead to hook on to any speaker but a floor stander. i had to do this to devise a look that showed no wires. in fact you cant even see the stereo when it is off. all that is visible are the mids and the tweeter.
2. i agree we dont know what to measure yet...to do this a lot of money needs to be spent on psychoacoustics and related disciplines. unfortunately only a a handful of audio companies make a decent profit (bose being one). unless the market improves 10 fold there wont be enough interest in doing this. the present measuring techniques satisfy the average joe. the golden days of audio were the 50s.
tcpip said:
1. my speaker are wired into a wall. there is almost no lead to hook on to any speaker but a floor stander. i had to do this to devise a look that showed no wires. in fact you cant even see the stereo when it is off. all that is visible are the mids and the tweeter.
2. i agree we dont know what to measure yet...to do this a lot of money needs to be spent on psychoacoustics and related disciplines. unfortunately only a a handful of audio companies make a decent profit (bose being one). unless the market improves 10 fold there wont be enough interest in doing this. the present measuring techniques satisfy the average joe. the golden days of audio were the 50s.
navin said:
Glad to be called young.
If you were born in 1963 (as your profile says), you are just two years older than I. Don't be fooled by the "Tarun" at the bottom. And now that I know there's no easy way to hook up my bookshelves to your system, I can't even say "Well, okay, I'll get my amp too!"
Tarun
so you are not that young. you sounded a lot younger with all that enthusiasim. i built my first amp in 1974 and speakers in 1976. i am sorta retired from audio. i just tinker once in awhile nowadays.
if by now you have found the pics yo will nitce that my electronics is all hidden in a cabinet. here again so that i could slide the equipment in and out i had to keep leads short so that teh leads dont cramp up behind the electronics when they are slid back.
the speaker wire was the biggest headache ginve that i had configured my room to a different speaker system. The first speaker system ihad here was a triamp.
my initial system which i got when i moved to india from the US consisted of 2 x JBL 2245 in tower subs. 6 x 8" Focal woofer in line source tower. 2 x gold ribbons in a 64" line soure tower on the inside. Since all 3 chanels were towers i ran all the wire under the tiles and out above the skirting which is 4" from the ground. BIG mistake. now I cant change my speaker wire!
The ribbons blew due to an amp that went DC.
My mom "donated" my subs to a friend as she felt they did not go with the decor.
so i built a new system from scratch trying to keep decor in mind. i am still castigated for building big boxes. hence my recent attempt at building curved cabinets that have better SAF. this consists of 2 x DV12 from Audio Concepts, 2 x SS 8546and 1 x 9900. this was when I was looking at MTM and cylindrical soundfields.
One day I'd like to reconfigure the 8546 and 9900 into a push push TL but i since i am now also in cabinets with curved sides in my search for higher SAF I am stuck push push means the rear has to be min. 180 mm wide.
the 12 Focal woofers we depolyed in other systems. 4 were used in a MT using 2 Morel MDT33s then again this system was modified to be a 3 way using a Audax HM170Z0. the other 8 were used as subs for my 2 brothers in law.
if by now you have found the pics yo will nitce that my electronics is all hidden in a cabinet. here again so that i could slide the equipment in and out i had to keep leads short so that teh leads dont cramp up behind the electronics when they are slid back.
the speaker wire was the biggest headache ginve that i had configured my room to a different speaker system. The first speaker system ihad here was a triamp.
my initial system which i got when i moved to india from the US consisted of 2 x JBL 2245 in tower subs. 6 x 8" Focal woofer in line source tower. 2 x gold ribbons in a 64" line soure tower on the inside. Since all 3 chanels were towers i ran all the wire under the tiles and out above the skirting which is 4" from the ground. BIG mistake. now I cant change my speaker wire!
The ribbons blew due to an amp that went DC.
My mom "donated" my subs to a friend as she felt they did not go with the decor.
so i built a new system from scratch trying to keep decor in mind. i am still castigated for building big boxes. hence my recent attempt at building curved cabinets that have better SAF. this consists of 2 x DV12 from Audio Concepts, 2 x SS 8546and 1 x 9900. this was when I was looking at MTM and cylindrical soundfields.
One day I'd like to reconfigure the 8546 and 9900 into a push push TL but i since i am now also in cabinets with curved sides in my search for higher SAF I am stuck push push means the rear has to be min. 180 mm wide.
the 12 Focal woofers we depolyed in other systems. 4 were used in a MT using 2 Morel MDT33s then again this system was modified to be a 3 way using a Audax HM170Z0. the other 8 were used as subs for my 2 brothers in law.
SACD
Tarun, I have not heard SACD, would love to one day. The most dramatic difference I see is its 1 bit ADC and 2.8224MHz sampling frequency. In conventional CDs even though the sampling frequency is higher than the Nyquist rate, one can theoretically reconstruct the original waveform without problem, but you need a very precise brick wall filter to achieve it, if not designed properly it will allow aliasing and cross modulation products to creep into the pass band. The DSD recording method overcomes this limitation of PCM recording. It is closest digital can get to analog.
But again I would question whether anything beyond CD quality is really required for 2 channel music reproduction at home. I would like to verify that the difference that one hears, is it due to the DSD technology or is it due to the care taken to produce the original recording meant for SACD.
A test can be designed where a live performance is directly recorded using DSD and PCM and then see whether trained listeners can spot the difference.
I hope some day we have a testing procedure by which we can quantitatively correlate to what we hear. When that day comes, we will see much fewer audio companies in the market.
Angshu
Tarun, I have not heard SACD, would love to one day. The most dramatic difference I see is its 1 bit ADC and 2.8224MHz sampling frequency. In conventional CDs even though the sampling frequency is higher than the Nyquist rate, one can theoretically reconstruct the original waveform without problem, but you need a very precise brick wall filter to achieve it, if not designed properly it will allow aliasing and cross modulation products to creep into the pass band. The DSD recording method overcomes this limitation of PCM recording. It is closest digital can get to analog.
But again I would question whether anything beyond CD quality is really required for 2 channel music reproduction at home. I would like to verify that the difference that one hears, is it due to the DSD technology or is it due to the care taken to produce the original recording meant for SACD.
A test can be designed where a live performance is directly recorded using DSD and PCM and then see whether trained listeners can spot the difference.
I hope some day we have a testing procedure by which we can quantitatively correlate to what we hear. When that day comes, we will see much fewer audio companies in the market.
Angshu
Re: SACD
It's easy to do this test, if you are willing to subject yourself to the limitations of my audio system. Get a Norah Jones CD (Rhythm House), get the SACD (Amazon.com), and come to my place. Beer is on me, and you can spend as many hours listening as you like.
I have three SACDs, all of which are hybrids, but none of which I have CDs of. I know hybrid CDs can be played from either layer on an SACD player, i.e. you can ask the player to play it as a CD or SACD, but if you don't trust that the player is switching layers, you will need to get a CD+SACD pair for the same album, same release. Norah Jones comes to mind easily, though as "test tracks", that music is less complex than what I have (albums from the recent remixed release of Rolling Stones by Abkco).
Tarun
angshudas said:
It's easy to do this test, if you are willing to subject yourself to the limitations of my audio system. Get a Norah Jones CD (Rhythm House), get the SACD (Amazon.com), and come to my place. Beer is on me, and you can spend as many hours listening as you like.
I have three SACDs, all of which are hybrids, but none of which I have CDs of. I know hybrid CDs can be played from either layer on an SACD player, i.e. you can ask the player to play it as a CD or SACD, but if you don't trust that the player is switching layers, you will need to get a CD+SACD pair for the same album, same release. Norah Jones comes to mind easily, though as "test tracks", that music is less complex than what I have (albums from the recent remixed release of Rolling Stones by Abkco).
Tarun
tarun, where do you put up. i dont like traffic and you know mumbai.
are u using an SACD player or a CD player. I have not got SACD yet. I figure i got 600+ CDs. have not bought one since 2000. why invest in another medium.
i was hoping for some end to this SACD - DVD Audio fracas right now there are players that will do both but these are a bit expensive. Also i gotta seel something to buy something and i got 2 cd players already. someday i would like to sell both and get a SACD-DVD Audio- DVD player if it can do a good job of normal CDs. any ideas? opinion?
are u using an SACD player or a CD player. I have not got SACD yet. I figure i got 600+ CDs. have not bought one since 2000. why invest in another medium.
i was hoping for some end to this SACD - DVD Audio fracas right now there are players that will do both but these are a bit expensive. Also i gotta seel something to buy something and i got 2 cd players already. someday i would like to sell both and get a SACD-DVD Audio- DVD player if it can do a good job of normal CDs. any ideas? opinion?
Re: Re: SACD
Tarun, your invitation is very tempting. Music, beer ...who needs anything else...Norah Jones's album might be a good source, because the original master is in analog. So if you can switch and tell from a hybrid Norah Jones SACD, then the extra money is worth it.
For the discs you have, when you switch between SACD and CD can you make out the difference.
By the way I find the album extremely well recorded. I find it very suitable for testing speakers as the voice comes very natural. I thought they did not use any processor in the chain but they did and if they were PCM digital then the experiment will fail. A home made console was used, I wonder whether that is the reason for such no nonsense sound.
I have a test vinyl which has a track recorded from a digital tape recorder and then the same track recorded from an analog recorder. I don't know whether in a very high end system one can detect the difference, but in my ordinary gramophone both sound same.
I would like to hear more opinions on SACD.
Angshu
PS. Navin, that's a pretty impressive system you have, with Tarun's Jondans and your setup, I think I have to come to Bombay pretty soon.
tcpip said:
It's easy to do this test, if you are willing to subject yourself to the limitations of my audio system. Get a Norah Jones CD (Rhythm House), get the SACD (Amazon.com), and come to my place. Beer is on me, and you can spend as many hours listening as you like.
Tarun, your invitation is very tempting. Music, beer ...who needs anything else...Norah Jones's album might be a good source, because the original master is in analog. So if you can switch and tell from a hybrid Norah Jones SACD, then the extra money is worth it.
For the discs you have, when you switch between SACD and CD can you make out the difference.
By the way I find the album extremely well recorded. I find it very suitable for testing speakers as the voice comes very natural. I thought they did not use any processor in the chain but they did and if they were PCM digital then the experiment will fail. A home made console was used, I wonder whether that is the reason for such no nonsense sound.
I have a test vinyl which has a track recorded from a digital tape recorder and then the same track recorded from an analog recorder. I don't know whether in a very high end system one can detect the difference, but in my ordinary gramophone both sound same.
I would like to hear more opinions on SACD.
Angshu
PS. Navin, that's a pretty impressive system you have, with Tarun's Jondans and your setup, I think I have to come to Bombay pretty soon.
Re: Re: Re: SACD
I didn't know it was that good. I have a tape. (I have a Nak... the most treasured part of my audio system.) I'm thinking of buying an SACD of the album now.
I have precisely three SACDs, all of which are from the recent Rolling Stones set. They have some incredibly clean but complex music. But I have yet to sit down and do this comparison. My player switches layer only when it is stopped. Therefore I'll have to listen to a fair-sized piece using one layer, then stop and switch, then start the same piece. Have recently shifted house; the new place seems to sound better. Will try it sometime soon; unpacking of all my CDs is still not over.
This is interesting news. I have looked for albums with natural voices, and I've gone and bought the Lesley Olsher "Jazz me" album from the Net (www.blackdahlia.com) because they advertised it as an example of super-accurate natural female voice recording. I didn't like it much. If you like Hindustani Classical, then Kishori Amonkar's double CD called "Sampradaya" is incredible both musically as well as for clarity of recording (even though it was a live recording). It's a Sony Music publication. Sony is easily the top publisher of Hindustani Classical music today, if you go by quality of sound. (Saregama/HMV wins hands down on depth of content and range of archival recordings, of course, though sound quality is a toss-up.) I've been to Kishori concerts, and this album sounds astonishingly like the live concert experience. I've now decided to use this album as a test recording for female voices. The realism of that resonant voice is amazing.
I think the Stones albums I have have been converted to SACD starting with the original analog masters. This was a sort of showcase SACD project, as far as I can make out. The engineer in charge seems to be Bob Ludwig... the only other place where I have seen this name was as the engineer in charge of the incredibly clean releases of Dire Straits albums which I have. (I use those as "test tracks" for CD playing for drums-and-guitar kind of music.)
I guess I can therefore use the Stones SACDs for testing sound quality, though I won't get Norah Jones beer-and-smoky voice.
Angshu, where did you find Navin's system details? I'm still searching on diyaudio.
I know about the "rich audio systems" phenomenon. I don't know how many of these owners like to listen to music. Almost all the super-expensive music systems that I've seen in Mumbai are with people who don't even know their music systems well, let alone liking to listen to music on them. One chap in Bandra has a system costing about a crore, with Jeff Rowland amps and B&W speakers. This is the class of customer the audio shop loves.
Once when I was in one of these shops, I saw a guy walk in, asking "What is the latest? Kuchh achchha dikhao. (Show me something good)." The shrewd salesman sized him up instantly, and deferentially showed him big Yamaha 5.1channel amps and large sexy looking speakers (I didn't say sexy sounding, note). Within about fifteen minutes, the audition was done, and the purchase decision was complete. The total transaction was for about Rs.500,000 (USD 10,000).
I sometimes wonder, if my disposable income becomes a couple of crores a year, will I too become like this? Is my care and involvement with my system because I know I can't even replace it if it breaks?
Don't know.
Tarun
angshudas said:
I didn't know it was that good. I have a tape. (I have a Nak... the most treasured part of my audio system.) I'm thinking of buying an SACD of the album now.
I have precisely three SACDs, all of which are from the recent Rolling Stones set. They have some incredibly clean but complex music. But I have yet to sit down and do this comparison. My player switches layer only when it is stopped. Therefore I'll have to listen to a fair-sized piece using one layer, then stop and switch, then start the same piece. Have recently shifted house; the new place seems to sound better. Will try it sometime soon; unpacking of all my CDs is still not over.
This is interesting news. I have looked for albums with natural voices, and I've gone and bought the Lesley Olsher "Jazz me" album from the Net (www.blackdahlia.com) because they advertised it as an example of super-accurate natural female voice recording. I didn't like it much. If you like Hindustani Classical, then Kishori Amonkar's double CD called "Sampradaya" is incredible both musically as well as for clarity of recording (even though it was a live recording). It's a Sony Music publication. Sony is easily the top publisher of Hindustani Classical music today, if you go by quality of sound. (Saregama/HMV wins hands down on depth of content and range of archival recordings, of course, though sound quality is a toss-up.) I've been to Kishori concerts, and this album sounds astonishingly like the live concert experience. I've now decided to use this album as a test recording for female voices. The realism of that resonant voice is amazing.
I think the Stones albums I have have been converted to SACD starting with the original analog masters. This was a sort of showcase SACD project, as far as I can make out. The engineer in charge seems to be Bob Ludwig... the only other place where I have seen this name was as the engineer in charge of the incredibly clean releases of Dire Straits albums which I have. (I use those as "test tracks" for CD playing for drums-and-guitar kind of music.)
I guess I can therefore use the Stones SACDs for testing sound quality, though I won't get Norah Jones beer-and-smoky voice.
Angshu, where did you find Navin's system details? I'm still searching on diyaudio.
navin said:
I know about the "rich audio systems" phenomenon. I don't know how many of these owners like to listen to music. Almost all the super-expensive music systems that I've seen in Mumbai are with people who don't even know their music systems well, let alone liking to listen to music on them. One chap in Bandra has a system costing about a crore, with Jeff Rowland amps and B&W speakers. This is the class of customer the audio shop loves.
Once when I was in one of these shops, I saw a guy walk in, asking "What is the latest? Kuchh achchha dikhao. (Show me something good)." The shrewd salesman sized him up instantly, and deferentially showed him big Yamaha 5.1channel amps and large sexy looking speakers (I didn't say sexy sounding, note). Within about fifteen minutes, the audition was done, and the purchase decision was complete. The total transaction was for about Rs.500,000 (USD 10,000).
I sometimes wonder, if my disposable income becomes a couple of crores a year, will I too become like this? Is my care and involvement with my system because I know I can't even replace it if it breaks?
Don't know.
Tarun
SACD player, audio formats, etc
I stay at Navi Mumbai, in Vashi. It's an hour's drive from VT nowadays, thanks to the flyovers, and is much more reachable by road, with a much more pleasant drive, than say, driving from South Bombay to Four Bungalows in Andheri West. (How do people want to stay in such congested, inflated-price, crowded places? ) Where do you stay? Mid-city?
I have the Sony DVP-NS900V; it handles CD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, VCD, DVD+RW, and SACD (both multi-channel and two-channel). I did the sacrilegious thing and bought a DVD player for audio. Consulted friends and the Net before that, and you'll see a lot of reviews and info on it by Googling for it (e.g. http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/sony900v_e.html) Most reviewers have complained of a slightly thin sound... "lacking in body"...; the truth is that this goes away after the first couple of hundred hours of use, as has been clarified by a lot of Sony player users on audioreview.com. Just don't mistake the NS905V or the NS915V for the NS900V; those two are later models, with better specs (108MHz video DAC instead of our 54MHz, and with MP3 playback in the NS915V) but definitely not half as good as the 900V.
We're very happy with the NS900V. Previous to this, we had an entry level Yamaha CD player, and we bought the Sony just to get the CD playing up to a minimum standard. The DVD playing and the SACD playing were bonuses. The Yamaha used to sound worse than my Nak ZX-9 (yes, cassette!) but now with the NS900V, I can sort of say that the Nak and the CD playing are both equally fun to listen to.
We must have reached about 400 CDs by now. And 3 SACDs. My oldest CD was Clapton's "Just one Night" double album, gifted to me as a wedding gift from the US by a former wingmate of mine from my hostel at the IIT. In 1992, I doubt you could get CDs in India, even if you could afford them.
I don't think one should buy a pure CD player any more; if you are buying something just for CD playback, might as well get either SACD or DVD-audio playback (or both) as part of the box. An SACD player which does good SACD playback will usually also do at least above average CD playback.
Also, I have this heretical suspicion that high-end Sony SACD players deliver far higher performance for the money than specialised brands, partly because they want to push SACD into the market, and partly because they get economies of scale none of the specialised brands like Musical Fidelity and Creek and what not can dream of. Reviewer after reviewer, for instance, has remarked about how inexpensive the NS900V is for its quality. Moral: if you want to buy an SACD player, look very carefully at the Sony models.
Thirdly, I have this feeling that high-resolution digital audio is moving ahead very fast, both in terms of sheer fidelity and in the areas of features and gizmos and multi-channel B&W (bells and whistles). Therefore, the ground-breaking USD-2000 CD players from Sony of the early nineties (remember the 777ES?) can probably be matched by a player costing less than half as much today. Provided you look closely.
If you want to ask me which way the SACD versus DVD-A war will go, I'll bet on SACD. This is not because SACD is superior (I suspect it is). This is simply because of this wonderful thing called "hybrid SACDs." I feel, in a few years, lots and lots of people who will buy audio CDs will not even know that what they are buying are hybrid SACDs, not Redbook CDs at all. And they'll take the CD (of the latest A R Rahman hit or T-Series remix) home and play it on their boomboxes. But for the music publisher, the incremental cost of producing a hybrid SACD will become comparable to the cost of a Redbook CD. And plain CD players far outnumber DVD players, hence hybrid SACDs will easily be pushed into the market.
Just my ten paise.
Tarun
navin said:
I stay at Navi Mumbai, in Vashi. It's an hour's drive from VT nowadays, thanks to the flyovers, and is much more reachable by road, with a much more pleasant drive, than say, driving from South Bombay to Four Bungalows in Andheri West. (How do people want to stay in such congested, inflated-price, crowded places?
) Where do you stay? Mid-city?I have the Sony DVP-NS900V; it handles CD, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, VCD, DVD+RW, and SACD (both multi-channel and two-channel). I did the sacrilegious thing and bought a DVD player for audio. Consulted friends and the Net before that, and you'll see a lot of reviews and info on it by Googling for it (e.g. http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/sony900v_e.html) Most reviewers have complained of a slightly thin sound... "lacking in body"...; the truth is that this goes away after the first couple of hundred hours of use, as has been clarified by a lot of Sony player users on audioreview.com. Just don't mistake the NS905V or the NS915V for the NS900V; those two are later models, with better specs (108MHz video DAC instead of our 54MHz, and with MP3 playback in the NS915V) but definitely not half as good as the 900V.
We're very happy with the NS900V. Previous to this, we had an entry level Yamaha CD player, and we bought the Sony just to get the CD playing up to a minimum standard. The DVD playing and the SACD playing were bonuses. The Yamaha used to sound worse than my Nak ZX-9 (yes, cassette!) but now with the NS900V, I can sort of say that the Nak and the CD playing are both equally fun to listen to.
We must have reached about 400 CDs by now. And 3 SACDs.
My oldest CD was Clapton's "Just one Night" double album, gifted to me as a wedding gift from the US by a former wingmate of mine from my hostel at the IIT. In 1992, I doubt you could get CDs in India, even if you could afford them. I don't think one should buy a pure CD player any more; if you are buying something just for CD playback, might as well get either SACD or DVD-audio playback (or both) as part of the box. An SACD player which does good SACD playback will usually also do at least above average CD playback.
Also, I have this heretical suspicion that high-end Sony SACD players deliver far higher performance for the money than specialised brands, partly because they want to push SACD into the market, and partly because they get economies of scale none of the specialised brands like Musical Fidelity and Creek and what not can dream of. Reviewer after reviewer, for instance, has remarked about how inexpensive the NS900V is for its quality. Moral: if you want to buy an SACD player, look very carefully at the Sony models.
Thirdly, I have this feeling that high-resolution digital audio is moving ahead very fast, both in terms of sheer fidelity and in the areas of features and gizmos and multi-channel B&W (bells and whistles). Therefore, the ground-breaking USD-2000 CD players from Sony of the early nineties (remember the 777ES?) can probably be matched by a player costing less than half as much today. Provided you look closely.
If you want to ask me which way the SACD versus DVD-A war will go, I'll bet on SACD. This is not because SACD is superior (I suspect it is). This is simply because of this wonderful thing called "hybrid SACDs." I feel, in a few years, lots and lots of people who will buy audio CDs will not even know that what they are buying are hybrid SACDs, not Redbook CDs at all. And they'll take the CD (of the latest A R Rahman hit or T-Series remix) home and play it on their boomboxes. But for the music publisher, the incremental cost of producing a hybrid SACD will become comparable to the cost of a Redbook CD. And plain CD players far outnumber DVD players, hence hybrid SACDs will easily be pushed into the market.
Just my ten paise.
Tarun
Re: Re: Re: Re: SACD
Tarun,
you are interesting. hindustani classical. great. i have no idea of indian music. i was raised in NYC (actually Brooklyn - am still have the some of the accent, vocab, and a bit of the attitude) I would like to listen to some stuff though.
I can remember some of the stuff my dad used to play but have no idea who sang this stuff, the names of the singers, or the songs themselves. Sadly when he was alive I was into very heavy metal (Venom, etc..). Mostly it was film score. I think. Once in a while a line from one of these songs enters my sub concious. Then if I sing thisin public all my friends stand with the jaws to the floor wondering how their ABCD friend came up with this.
I think we have seen the same system i dont know anyone else who uses rowland and B&W. did he also have tara labs speaker wire in his car many years ago?
If my disposbale income reaches those levels who knows but I would only be too happy if that happens.
tcpip said:Have recently shifted house; the new place seems to sound better. Will try it sometime soon; unpacking of all my CDs is still not over.
I didn't like it much. If you like Hindustani Classical, then Kishori Amonkar's double CD called "Sampradaya" is incredible both musically as well as for clarity of recording (even though it was a live recording). It's a Sony Music publication.
I think the Stones albums I have have been converted to SACD starting with the original analog masters. This was a sort of showcase SACD project, as far as I can make out. The engineer in charge seems to be Bob Ludwig
I guess I can therefore use the Stones SACDs for testing sound quality, though I won't get Norah Jones beer-and-smoky voice.
Angshu, where did you find Navin's system details? I'm still searching on diyaudio.
One chap in Bandra has a system costing about a crore, with Jeff Rowland amps and B&W speakers.
I sometimes wonder, if my disposable income becomes a couple of crores a year, will I too become like this? Is my care and involvement with my system because I know I can't even replace it if it breaks?
Tarun
Tarun,
you are interesting. hindustani classical. great. i have no idea of indian music. i was raised in NYC (actually Brooklyn - am still have the some of the accent, vocab, and a bit of the attitude
) I would like to listen to some stuff though. I can remember some of the stuff my dad used to play but have no idea who sang this stuff, the names of the singers, or the songs themselves. Sadly when he was alive I was into very heavy metal (Venom, etc..). Mostly it was film score. I think. Once in a while a line from one of these songs enters my sub concious. Then if I sing thisin public all my friends stand with the jaws to the floor wondering how their ABCD friend came up with this.
I think we have seen the same system i dont know anyone else who uses rowland and B&W. did he also have tara labs speaker wire in his car many years ago?
If my disposbale income reaches those levels who knows but I would only be too happy if that happens.
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