What is the reason that digital tuners are not as good as analog? Is it that you can tune an analog more precisely?
I guess people here listen to mostly one station because if I had an analog tuner I might as well just sit next to the tuner, since I change the station so much. Although there seem to be many digital tuners that you cannot use a remote with also. Maybe they are older models.
No one mentioned Carver, are they any good?
I guess people here listen to mostly one station because if I had an analog tuner I might as well just sit next to the tuner, since I change the station so much. Although there seem to be many digital tuners that you cannot use a remote with also. Maybe they are older models.
No one mentioned Carver, are they any good?
No they in fact tune to the centre freq......however if the phase lock loop (that's the business with the synthesizer frequency divider, phase detector and divide N counter digitals) haven't been optimised properly, an LF warbling can be heard in the audio. I get this with my SW set. Synthesizers have become the norm as channel spacings become ever more crowded and tighter. Stereo analogue receivers (good ones) typically reguire a passband between 200-250Khz for best results.....Narrowing the bandwidth will lead to "birdies", ajacent channel interference etc.
Synthesizer does permit tightening of these parameters, and perhaps does effect the quality of the decoded signal. So far I've been more dissapointed by the quality of the audio signal that sent out, not received. It's difficult to assess digital receiver quality when poor quality audio dominates the transmissions.
rich
There is no technical reason why a digital tuner, (one using a phase locked loop synthesizer) cannot be as good as an analog tuner, (one using LC circuits) in all respects.
A synthesized tuner has the advantages of being programmable, and having less drift. As the frequency of the band increases, it becomes much steadily easier to build a synthesized local oscillator as opposed to an LC based one.
A pll circuit derives its stablity from being locked to a crystal. If that crystal is ovenized, the frequency stability can be better than extremely good.
The weak point of a synthesized tuner is phase noise. However, if done properly this can be completely eliminated as an issue. Phase noise generally increases as a function of decreasing channel spacing. For example, a tuner that jumps in 25 KHz steps is going to have more phase noise than a tuner that jumps in 200 KHz steps. If properly designed a level above absolute junk, an FM tuner ought to be able to tune in 1 Hz steps with acceptable phase noise.
A level beyond pll would be to generate a tuner's local oscillator frequency using direct digital synthesis (DDS.) Here the sine wave is generated using a DAC.
The next step would be a real digital tuner using dsp - one which digitizes the FM band, (maybe the entire band at once!) at an IF frequency, or even digitizes the entire band in place (88 to 108 MHz!) Selectivity and signal detection can then be done in software. You could program selectivity to anything in 1 Hz steps, and you could deal with multipath issues using dsp. The tuner could even be made to recover the RDS information from all stations being received at the same time, and display it as a list.
It is all about money. What kind of market exists today for a good FM tuner? That's all there is to it. Unfortunately today - what music listeners want is junk.
Ron
A synthesized tuner has the advantages of being programmable, and having less drift. As the frequency of the band increases, it becomes much steadily easier to build a synthesized local oscillator as opposed to an LC based one.
A pll circuit derives its stablity from being locked to a crystal. If that crystal is ovenized, the frequency stability can be better than extremely good.
The weak point of a synthesized tuner is phase noise. However, if done properly this can be completely eliminated as an issue. Phase noise generally increases as a function of decreasing channel spacing. For example, a tuner that jumps in 25 KHz steps is going to have more phase noise than a tuner that jumps in 200 KHz steps. If properly designed a level above absolute junk, an FM tuner ought to be able to tune in 1 Hz steps with acceptable phase noise.
A level beyond pll would be to generate a tuner's local oscillator frequency using direct digital synthesis (DDS.) Here the sine wave is generated using a DAC.
The next step would be a real digital tuner using dsp - one which digitizes the FM band, (maybe the entire band at once!) at an IF frequency, or even digitizes the entire band in place (88 to 108 MHz!) Selectivity and signal detection can then be done in software. You could program selectivity to anything in 1 Hz steps, and you could deal with multipath issues using dsp. The tuner could even be made to recover the RDS information from all stations being received at the same time, and display it as a list.
It is all about money. What kind of market exists today for a good FM tuner? That's all there is to it. Unfortunately today - what music listeners want is junk.
Ron
I am now looking for a good FM tuner to listen to ABC Classic FM and 2MBS in Sydney.
I have read the fmtuner.com and others. It appears that most fans in the forums opt for vintage tuners. I am not an ebay person and am not interested in hunting from pawnshops to pawnshops. On the other hand, I don't want to spend $5,000+ for a new Accuphase that has good review, because $5,000 is really a lot of money for a tuner and my pocket is not that fat.
I don't really understand the logic how companies like Marantz who used to produce very good tuners in the 70's can't produce good tuners today? !!! Oh, yes, they don't make tube output stage any more, but I prefer solid state anyway, surely for the curcuits other than the analogue output, they would have improved much comparing to 70's? !!!
Has anyone got any new tuner to recommend?
What if I buy a NAD524 tuner (RRP AUD$400) and do component upgrade? i.e. replacing opamps, caps, diodes, etc? I have upgraded a NAD542 CD Player and got excellent result. Would I have the same luck with a NAD tuner? Sorry I still know barely anything about tuners.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
Regards,
Bill
I have read the fmtuner.com and others. It appears that most fans in the forums opt for vintage tuners. I am not an ebay person and am not interested in hunting from pawnshops to pawnshops. On the other hand, I don't want to spend $5,000+ for a new Accuphase that has good review, because $5,000 is really a lot of money for a tuner and my pocket is not that fat.
I don't really understand the logic how companies like Marantz who used to produce very good tuners in the 70's can't produce good tuners today? !!! Oh, yes, they don't make tube output stage any more, but I prefer solid state anyway, surely for the curcuits other than the analogue output, they would have improved much comparing to 70's? !!!
Has anyone got any new tuner to recommend?
What if I buy a NAD524 tuner (RRP AUD$400) and do component upgrade? i.e. replacing opamps, caps, diodes, etc? I have upgraded a NAD542 CD Player and got excellent result. Would I have the same luck with a NAD tuner? Sorry I still know barely anything about tuners.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
Regards,
Bill
Ron Fischler said:
Oh, I think you might want to rethink that statement. At the very high end of ham radio -- which is all about plucking signals which are tens of dB lower than FM or AM broadcast out of the ether -- the quiet of an LC circuit is highly preferred -- QEX has done a series of articles on this. DSP has paved over a lot of the problems and is much less human intensive.
FWIW, I always thought that Pioneer did a really great job in their SX series of (ancient) receivers. I bought an SX838 from Harvey Electronics when I got married and the tuner is still better than anything which costs multiples of what I paid in real, 1974 dollars. Back in the cave-man era, the Pioneer "Super Tuners" were the ne plus ultra -- I had a huge Oldsmobile station wagon and replaced the Delco with a Pioneer SuperTuner, we would pile the kidz into it and drive across country listening to anything from Canada to Mexico.
Hey Jack,
Man, you really dated yourself with things like: Pioneer Super Tuner, Harvey Electronics, Olsmobile station wagon and most of all, piling the kidz into the Oldsmobile station wagon and driving across country (who could afford that gas bill now?).
The Super Tuner was ahead of everybody else for car FM. Sweet!
FWIW, I recently bought a Sansui TU717 in PERFECT condition for $255 on eBay. What a deal! It is heavy, beautiful and a real piece of equipment. I also have a Creek T40 from the early 90s that was supposed to be amazing and British and very musical. My new OLD Sansui blows it away at 30 years old. I haven't even touched it with one mod yet.
Another member here, Serratoga, recently recapped his (Black Gates) and replaced the diodes with Schotkys and is blown away with his. He hasn't even done the filters yet or had it aligned. That will help with today's signals. I will do mine in the Spring.
I think this would be a better way to spend $400 than the NAD.
There are less than a handful of stations that aren't over processed and worth listening to, here in the Metro New York area. Jack's station 96.3, and 101.9 and 90.7 WFUV. But when you here them with a nice tuner, you are glad you did it. Don't forget to also pay a lot of attention to the antenna too.
Good luck!
Regards//Keith
Man, you really dated yourself with things like: Pioneer Super Tuner, Harvey Electronics, Olsmobile station wagon and most of all, piling the kidz into the Oldsmobile station wagon and driving across country (who could afford that gas bill now?).
The Super Tuner was ahead of everybody else for car FM. Sweet!
FWIW, I recently bought a Sansui TU717 in PERFECT condition for $255 on eBay. What a deal! It is heavy, beautiful and a real piece of equipment. I also have a Creek T40 from the early 90s that was supposed to be amazing and British and very musical. My new OLD Sansui blows it away at 30 years old. I haven't even touched it with one mod yet.
Another member here, Serratoga, recently recapped his (Black Gates) and replaced the diodes with Schotkys and is blown away with his. He hasn't even done the filters yet or had it aligned. That will help with today's signals. I will do mine in the Spring.
I think this would be a better way to spend $400 than the NAD.
There are less than a handful of stations that aren't over processed and worth listening to, here in the Metro New York area. Jack's station 96.3, and 101.9 and 90.7 WFUV. But when you here them with a nice tuner, you are glad you did it. Don't forget to also pay a lot of attention to the antenna too.
Good luck!
Regards//Keith
Custom Cruiser -- my wife hated it so I got her a Ford Bronco (no kiddin') We drove that car from Long Island and NJ to the Midwest almost every three months for several years. We would drive it to Ohio to take my Mom out to dinner on a Saturday night, and return on Sunday!
Of course, I left the maintenance to my wife (who is a famous molecular biologist and discovered some kind of cancer cell) - I can tell you for a fact that a Ford Bronco can go for 100k miles without an oil change, but after that it is certain death!!
Please not to forget WBGO on 88.3 --
Of course, I left the maintenance to my wife (who is a famous molecular biologist and discovered some kind of cancer cell) - I can tell you for a fact that a Ford Bronco can go for 100k miles without an oil change, but after that it is certain death!!
Please not to forget WBGO on 88.3 --
Denon TU680NAB
this tuner was comissioned and built as the reference for the NAB (national association of brodcasters) and has both of the AM stereo decoder syatems. The unit can stand to be upgraded but out of the box sounds good. I have one and have not come across any tuner so far that made me want to change.
this tuner was comissioned and built as the reference for the NAB (national association of brodcasters) and has both of the AM stereo decoder syatems. The unit can stand to be upgraded but out of the box sounds good. I have one and have not come across any tuner so far that made me want to change.
JVC T-X900 / T-X900L
If your market was one where this sold (circa 1986-88) then, typically, this reference-standard tuner can be picked up for peanuts...I've seen them on eBay.de sell for ~25euro's..
I've a dozen+ tuners - and this provides the most Transparent sonics - certainly compared to the rather 'sluggish' Pioneer F-91 - and I invariably use it in preference to Quad/Meridian/Leak/Cambridge (though the T55 is excellent) when making quality FM dubs from BBC R3.
Anyone finding the JVC would be in for a treat: - fast - dynamic - top-to-bottom 'see-through' quality - the tuner appearing to 'impose' no 'character' of its own onto the signal.
Google Victor T-X900 - and you'll see the Japanese k-nisi site @ the top - and there's a pretty decent Google machine translation.
If your market was one where this sold (circa 1986-88) then, typically, this reference-standard tuner can be picked up for peanuts...I've seen them on eBay.de sell for ~25euro's..
I've a dozen+ tuners - and this provides the most Transparent sonics - certainly compared to the rather 'sluggish' Pioneer F-91 - and I invariably use it in preference to Quad/Meridian/Leak/Cambridge (though the T55 is excellent) when making quality FM dubs from BBC R3.
Anyone finding the JVC would be in for a treat: - fast - dynamic - top-to-bottom 'see-through' quality - the tuner appearing to 'impose' no 'character' of its own onto the signal.
Google Victor T-X900 - and you'll see the Japanese k-nisi site @ the top - and there's a pretty decent Google machine translation.
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