Was just inspired to have a look a the Goldmund site as I only remember them as makers of fairly sane DD turntables in the '80s I think.
The 'Company' part was interesting.
The boast a number of PhD holders in their board but the only ones they thought worth mentioning was on PhD in sign-making (well semiology to be honest) and one in marketing.
Personally I'd be more positively inclined towards their products had the PhDs been in electrical engineering, acoustics and things like that.
The 'Company' part was interesting.
The boast a number of PhD holders in their board but the only ones they thought worth mentioning was on PhD in sign-making (well semiology to be honest) and one in marketing.
Personally I'd be more positively inclined towards their products had the PhDs been in electrical engineering, acoustics and things like that.
That's how the whole HiEnd industry works, more or less.
Especially in cables and "minimalist" electronics they must work with huge profit margins.
That's why I've come to "respect" companies that at least offer what should be a given aka gear you cannot DIY in a couple of days, properly built, with decent measurements, good mechanical construction etc.
As a greek saying goes: Among the blind, an one-eyed guy is King.
That's why I like my MC2 Audio MC series amps (now sadly discontinued).
The amplifier part has is a fairly straightforward class AB type, apparently designed by the guy who helped de Paravincini start E.A.R. and then made bombproof/roadworthy by the guy who founded Klark Teknik.
And frankly the protection is the really interesting part IMO.
The amp section is digitally 'supervised' and if the processor detects the onset of clipping or overheating it rolls off the supply rail voltage until the amp operates within safety margins again without necessarily shutting off.
It avoids turn on thumps by fading the supply voltage up and obviously it will shut off for serious faults but none of the protection circuitry is anywhere in the audio path.
The amps modular built allows for easy servicing/repairs on the road should the become necesssary (it hasn't for me).
That is what impressed me as an end user, amp designers might find the 'current-driver driver stage' (whatever that means) interesting.
I think it might be difficult to replicate this amp in a few days for less than it cost new which was £1400-2100 depending on output.
The goldmund at least youre paying for all that goldplating, would be better if it were silver which is cheaper and has better electrical properties if you cared more about the audio of the product.
Shaman you showing scary stuff here
I guess those PHD,s explain it all too well.
The problem with silver is that it tarnishes… quickly.
Some will say that silver oxide is a conductor which is true.
But it is not a very good one compared to copper or gold and the silver tarnish we find here is NOT silver oxide but silver sulphate which is an insulator.
XLR leads come in two flavours (at least the ones with Neutrik plugs): silver and gold-plated pins.
The advice is use the silver ones for things that get plugged in and out regularly like mics as the pins get wiped clean every time but for more permanent connections like at the back of a rack use the gold ones to avoid faults developing.
Expensive for whom ? So those who buy well built expensive gear are suckers , while those who buy cheap chit and convince themselves how good they are , is good ..
Expensive for whom ? So those who buy well built expensive gear are suckers , while those who buy cheap chit and convince themselves how good they are , is good ..
You misunderstood my post and, I hope unintentionally, twist my words but first things first...
It's my turn to ask a question and you haven't answered mine:
And what will the market accept/bare? How do you judge that?
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Considering Mr. Wayne dropped a hint that he bought the Soulution amplifiers, you should be cheering him on...
and we aren't talking about "bare" markets I hope... maybe a bear market? or how much will the market bear...
At any rate, I'm glad there are a few people around who can afford the Soulution amplifier, regardless of it's merits.
Twist..? like in the wind .....
So, the sucker in my example (guy who spends $10k on a $40 cable) is equivalent to all "those who buy well built expensive gear"?
Btw, still no answer to my question.
I've even gave an example to make it easier for you to tell us what exactly "what the market will accept/bare" means...
Yeah, as much as he's cheering me for bringing Soulution in the discussion and mentioning they make the best SS gear I've heard.
Check posts #95 and #99 where I defend them - compared to the rest of the industry, at least..
Bear ofc... I only say "bare with me" to girls...
Don't shoot the messenger though. I just copied/pasted a.wayne's sentence @ post #115.
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Denegrating those who push the envelope developing a product and charge for it is very ignorant, denegrating those willing to pay for such endeavors, be it real or percieved is myopic..
The value of anything is dependent on what the market is willing to pay, regardless of what you think. If there is a market for 50K speaker cables, then there are those who will provide such , same for 200k amplifiers.
Charletans abound at all levels when monies are involved, that aside and not for the rare occasion , i have never heard Cheap sound as good as expensive gear, there are diminishing returns, academic , then for whom ?
Dirkwright .. good catch , u brainiac you ..... no, no soulutions .....
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The value of anything is dependent on what the market is willing to pay, regardless of what you think. If there is a market for 50K speaker cables, then there are those who will provide such , same for 200k amplifiers.
Charletans abound at all levels when monies are involved, that aside and not for the rare occasion , i have never heard Cheap sound as good as expensive gear, there are diminishing returns, academic , then for whom ?
Dirkwright .. good catch , u brainiac you .....
no, no soulutions ......
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Again, I never talked about companies that really offer something unique (in terms of innovation, build quality, performance etc).
I hope you don't honestly believe all expensive HiEnd gear "push the envelope"?
So, in my example what is the correct pricing policy?
How do you define what the market is willing to pay?
Is 1 or 2 sales a year a "market"?
Btw a $50 Belden cable dressed in nice clothes and sold for $5000 is overpriced, regardless of what you think, regardless of how much money you make and regardless of the fact that there might be a few people around the globe who will naive enough/bored of their money/whatever and who will end up buying the cable.
Same goes for any $20.000 amp with $300 in parts, based on 1970's public domain schematics, with mediocre performance and build quality and with sound that can be matched by any decent DIY design.
Unless you want to tell me that the Goldmund player above is not overpriced, even though it is in fact a $100 Pioneer unit, just because some people bought it...
Or that I'm degenerating Goldmund who really pushed the envelope in the area of re-casing cheap Japanese players or their customers who were willing to pay for such endeavors...
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What is overpriced is purely a matter of opinion and nothing more. Do not make the mistake of trying to establish a universal truth from a mere opinion, or subjective truth. If it's your subjective truth that a piece of gear is overpriced, then that's your opinion and not a matter of universal truth. Trying to force your personal subjective truth on others is not very nice.
Wayne, I do know what charlatan means.
Our disagreement lies in the percentage of HiEnd manufactures who deserve the characterization.
There is nothing subjective about profit margins. It's simple math.
It's even simpler math in many cases of HiEnd products where there is no true R&D or innovation to be seen...
Our disagreement lies in the percentage of HiEnd manufactures who deserve the characterization.
There is nothing subjective about profit margins. It's simple math.
It's even simpler math in many cases of HiEnd products where there is no true R&D or innovation to be seen...
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Well, who are you to determine which manufacturer deserves which ever characterization? It's a purely subjective opinion on your part.
You're not talking about just profit margins. You're talking about what is a "fair" profit margin in your opinion. That is an entirely subjective idea and trying to convince someone else that your idea of "fair" is the only acceptable one is not very nice.
I'm a consumer aka a potential customer.
You're confusing product value with perceived value.
Perceived value is subjective, product value is not.
You do not use perceived value to calculate profit margins. You use the product value, which is not subjective, thus neither is the profit margin.
Using perceived value to calculate profit margins is wrong (on the consumer's side) and ofc golden for the manufacturers who can charge as much as they want..
This way the Goldmund is not overpriced... because it is a Goldmund after all, ain't it?!
When you open the case and see it's a Pioneer the perceived value drops and you realize you've been scammed.
The real value of the product does not change. The perceived value does.
In the case of a manufacturer, if most of your competitors offer better/really innovative products with a lower markup, your product is overpriced.
The fact that you might have customers does not change that.
Some of them are probably the same people who use their perceived value of a product to decide what they'll purchase it or not.
They're free to do as they please with their money ofc, but that doesn't change the fact that it is bad consumer practice and one which, sadly, affects everyone.
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What I mean by universal truth is that truth that applies to everyone, like gravity or the speed of light, regardless of your opinion about it. Just because you don't believe in gravity, for example, doesn't mean it's not real nor does it mean that you are immune to it's effects.
I'm not confusing anything and stop accusing me of that. You are not being clear, or you are trying to impose your views on others. What do you mean by product value? The term "value" is a subjective term. What do you mean?
Just because you feel, in your opinion, that some product is overpriced doesn't mean anything. It's useless information, regardless of how much you want to impose your views on what the market "should" look like or what some product "should" be priced. The product is worth exactly what someone will pay for it regardless of how much it cost to make it.
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