If the truth be known I suspect those little screws are a Red Herring of the first order. Much like the No 13 or whatever. Sometimes they let you make the turntable look nicer as they have about 1/2 mm adjustment. The Keel has slightly better bass detail. It isn't night and day. The Naim Aro arm was able to make this happen as it couples in a different way. I have both Ekos and Aro and think the Aro slightly my favourite. Some bass dynamics are traded for layers and softly natural detail. The Ekos tends to show the weeknesses of the LP12 .
I suggest noticing you have a 'lack of detail' is very hard to do without direct comparison to a different deck which has the detail - eg. if you went to a dealer who had 2 otherwise identical LP12 setups but one had a Keel and the other didn't. Once you hear it - and then go back to your own deck - however much you love its sound you understand that you're not extracting all you could get from the grooves.
But just to give you some examples of what you may not be able to hear, if your TT is losing low-level detail:
1: DSOTM, "The Great Gig in the Sky". I have the MoFi version and the 30th? Anniversary re-issue. On both as the music has become quiet, just over a minute from the end, you should be able to hear Clare Torry say the words "I'm not frightened of dying".
2: "Hotel California" from the Eagles' "HFOT" album. After the Spanish guitar run on the R channel, just over 30 secs in, you hear the big bass drum come in on the L channel and, straight after, 2 types of percussion on the R channel. A triple strike on a small drum and then a sharper, louder note - possibly a block of wood. Some systems blur these together.
Regards,
Andy
I can quite plainly hear that on my Technics SL-1200M3D with Denon DL-103 in aluminum body.
Thanks.
jeff
That's very interesting, Simon. I did think 'she' sounded a bit strange but the guy that told me about that test didn't make any comment about it not being the singer ... so I just assumed it was.
Andy
Whilst I have an LP12 it is only because I don't want to part with it. I think it is outperformed by the Lenco GL 75. Recently I have been trying to get more from the LP12. Often when I don't have a turntable the LP12 comes back to life. Now is one of those times. Don't get me wrong, I like it. What I don't like is it sounds a bit dark as if it were a Sony TC 377 tape deck, not quite a Revox. One very good stage away from how it could sound
When the Keel was launched by pure chance I walked into the Linn room. I know Trevor and became a Linn salesman for the moment. Most people were baffled by the difference ( yikes ). To me much it was better as I have heard mastertapes and would say it has less of the jelly quality as would the mastertape. This was a big surprise as that would seem to be drive train. I suddenly realised people were out of their depth. They had no idea what the mastertape would sound like and do not seek it. My system at home will pull apart the layers, I love this. Other people look surprised and say " I had no idea it sounded like that". As I earn my living designing these things they assume I am right. I am, but is it really what they want ? I suppose as everything else would be wrong they should. I have a Panasonic PVR which records in something like MP3. Mostly the jelly thing is less. Some films can be stunning on no jelly quality.
BTW. A Dansette will in some ways will be better. It has verve. I nearly had the chance to run BSR when young. My ideas were too radical. Knowing what I know now I would have improved the BSR HT 70. The Linn platters were made in the same foundry, but weathered and finished at Linn. Linn LVX arm was a BSR. To the HT70 I might have fitted a wood pick up arm like Garrard Lab 80. A metal one at less cost for conventional people.
If you own a Linn Troika modern preamps suit it far better. In it's day I was at a lost to understand the hype and thought the Karma better. I would say the preamps lost the top end and made it sound dull. The best I ever heard was an Asaka that was broken when about a week old. This went to Expert Stylus in Ashted. They did the best they could. It was remarkable. We phoned them to say thanks. As they pointed out it is rare to do a new cartridge. Often it is not the stylus that is worn, it's the whole device. The best they could do was the cantilever was slighly longer if I remember?
I guess if I am to have any peace I should build a chassis. I had hoped someone would beat me to it. My idea No 3 only because it suits the predudices of people, that makes it look a winner. It is also the easier to do. I have a hunch it will outperform the Keel. It should. The Keel is homogenous, that is what aircraft must have. It is what turntables should not have. The machining helps.
When the Keel was launched by pure chance I walked into the Linn room. I know Trevor and became a Linn salesman for the moment. Most people were baffled by the difference ( yikes ). To me much it was better as I have heard mastertapes and would say it has less of the jelly quality as would the mastertape. This was a big surprise as that would seem to be drive train. I suddenly realised people were out of their depth. They had no idea what the mastertape would sound like and do not seek it. My system at home will pull apart the layers, I love this. Other people look surprised and say " I had no idea it sounded like that". As I earn my living designing these things they assume I am right. I am, but is it really what they want ? I suppose as everything else would be wrong they should. I have a Panasonic PVR which records in something like MP3. Mostly the jelly thing is less. Some films can be stunning on no jelly quality.
BTW. A Dansette will in some ways will be better. It has verve. I nearly had the chance to run BSR when young. My ideas were too radical. Knowing what I know now I would have improved the BSR HT 70. The Linn platters were made in the same foundry, but weathered and finished at Linn. Linn LVX arm was a BSR. To the HT70 I might have fitted a wood pick up arm like Garrard Lab 80. A metal one at less cost for conventional people.
If you own a Linn Troika modern preamps suit it far better. In it's day I was at a lost to understand the hype and thought the Karma better. I would say the preamps lost the top end and made it sound dull. The best I ever heard was an Asaka that was broken when about a week old. This went to Expert Stylus in Ashted. They did the best they could. It was remarkable. We phoned them to say thanks. As they pointed out it is rare to do a new cartridge. Often it is not the stylus that is worn, it's the whole device. The best they could do was the cantilever was slighly longer if I remember?
I guess if I am to have any peace I should build a chassis. I had hoped someone would beat me to it. My idea No 3 only because it suits the predudices of people, that makes it look a winner. It is also the easier to do. I have a hunch it will outperform the Keel. It should. The Keel is homogenous, that is what aircraft must have. It is what turntables should not have. The machining helps.
The stylus waggling around on bass notes for starters, not all the energy developed at the stylus goes one way into the cartridge, some gets into the platter directly, some goes up the tonearm and around the chassis. There won't be much amplitude in the sub chassis but it's all relative. There may also be some feedback from the speakers.
Nigel, look up the Audioflat Rubikon, my mate Mark designed it. A very nice LP12 subchassis, machined bolted with both arm and chassis parts being assembled from multiple layers and bonded with glue tape. A very clever bit of engineering that they only produced in limited numbers- because the guys they had fabricate it cut corners Mark and his business partner decided to shelve it.
There's an awful lot right with it, mass, COG location, use of curved surfaces to break up standing waves and the inter layer damping. It does all the things the Keel does, but with a broader tonal palette and finer rendering of micro and macro detail.
There's an awful lot right with it, mass, COG location, use of curved surfaces to break up standing waves and the inter layer damping. It does all the things the Keel does, but with a broader tonal palette and finer rendering of micro and macro detail.
Elephant in the room time. The energy goes into the belt. This suff about the chassis was Linn using some salesmanship to offset justified critism over the cheap and lets be honest nasty sub chassis. By saying it was light it has the ring of thruth about it. The chassis of my 501 is many many kg, it is made from 14 inch stainless steel. The support is very light and suspended. It has a sound that is clearly free from the usual defects. The 601 uses aluminium. It is clearly less good. From what I understand the low mass route and the high mass route work as long as the arm is not connected to a energy reflecting material. This seems to play pin pong with the vibrtion. Naim Aro avoids this with a decoupled support. What I could imagine is the medium mass would be very wrong.
The first Linn mod was epoxy glue and better paint. This replaced spot welds. Even without the welding distortion the Linn chassis were far from flat. Flat enough.
The belt and motor are totally below the standard required. I have to say that any belt is in truth.
As I said before I like my LP12. The TD145 I have although very similar is not half as good. It even has rumble which is bonkers for a belt drive. The LP12 although measuring 7 db worse than my 501 has no obvious rumble. The rumble it has probably turns the sound from black to brown as an analogy. The 501 has greater dynamics. Rock solid timing and very black silence.
What I would liken LP12 to is a domestic motorcar done up for racing. In the race it comes in third. A near impossible thing as it still had all of it's domestic parts. Viewed in that light they have done very well. All the serrious turntable like EMT are pure Formula One. Forget the fantasy turntables seen at hi fi shows. I doubt the LP12 needs fear them. Avid is OK.
Trampolin
Hi, Fascinating thread this.
I have owned an LP12 for many years and have loved it.
About 18 months ago i bought a newer one, not keel, but cirkus bearing, stiffer plinth and Lingo etc and I liked that too.
Then I had a Trampolin fitted and after living with it for a few months I think it has made it sound worse than before, ie thinner sounding and (dare i say it?) not as musical.
I would be interested to know other peoples (honest) opinions on the trampolin, and did they think it was a worthwhile mod. I am seriously thinking about having it taken off again.
Kind Regards
Royville.
Hi, Fascinating thread this.
I have owned an LP12 for many years and have loved it.
About 18 months ago i bought a newer one, not keel, but cirkus bearing, stiffer plinth and Lingo etc and I liked that too.
Then I had a Trampolin fitted and after living with it for a few months I think it has made it sound worse than before, ie thinner sounding and (dare i say it?) not as musical.
I would be interested to know other peoples (honest) opinions on the trampolin, and did they think it was a worthwhile mod. I am seriously thinking about having it taken off again.
Kind Regards
Royville.
Audioflat Rubikon
Good use of modern maching tools. What I propposed should only need basic hand tools. Also cheap enough not to worry about if it will work out.
NEW Linn LP12 Standard Sub Chassis : Official LINN Accessory The new 2013/14...
Good use of modern maching tools. What I propposed should only need basic hand tools. Also cheap enough not to worry about if it will work out.
NEW Linn LP12 Standard Sub Chassis : Official LINN Accessory The new 2013/14...
Linn Sondek LP12 - Sole: versus Cirkus & Keel
I am not sure what I feel about this chassis. Whilst no one is passing off something it does seem naughty to clone anothers product. I still have a hunch the homemade one can be better. In engineering it is said make the impossible irellivant. Given we can never stop resonance why not try to make it better resonance? Try to stop the energy build up. Aluminium , epoxy and plywood are three dreadful materials that will combine to be less dreadful. Not so good as to be a violin ( intentional resonance) and not so good to stop a specific frequency ( hand holding a bell ). Passing the energy without too much amplitude change. Damping is anti-resonance ( it is resonance of another sort ). On the whole it is a very bad thing if used without care. The belt is the prime damping device. It is a two way street, motor and stylus.
The Open University made a violin to a modern recipe. It had no output and needed a pick up like a guitar. It sounded remarkably good and faithful against accepted voilins. They then measured a real violin of the highest grade. To their great surprise it measured like the electric violin. Somehow by ear the makers had found a shape over many years that resonated in a reasonably linear way. One violin can make the sound of a mouse and the other fill a concert hall. The latter the work of genius.
I am not sure what I feel about this chassis. Whilst no one is passing off something it does seem naughty to clone anothers product. I still have a hunch the homemade one can be better. In engineering it is said make the impossible irellivant. Given we can never stop resonance why not try to make it better resonance? Try to stop the energy build up. Aluminium , epoxy and plywood are three dreadful materials that will combine to be less dreadful. Not so good as to be a violin ( intentional resonance) and not so good to stop a specific frequency ( hand holding a bell ). Passing the energy without too much amplitude change. Damping is anti-resonance ( it is resonance of another sort ). On the whole it is a very bad thing if used without care. The belt is the prime damping device. It is a two way street, motor and stylus.
The Open University made a violin to a modern recipe. It had no output and needed a pick up like a guitar. It sounded remarkably good and faithful against accepted voilins. They then measured a real violin of the highest grade. To their great surprise it measured like the electric violin. Somehow by ear the makers had found a shape over many years that resonated in a reasonably linear way. One violin can make the sound of a mouse and the other fill a concert hall. The latter the work of genius.
Like is a strong word. The springs are bad news whoever uses them. The TD150 and it's followers use a " wrongly placed " spring to cause the motion to be mostly vertical. That is the theory and reality is different. This is the right type of wrong.
The major reason for the vertical bounce is the most valuable stereo imformation is in that direction. The cutting lathe had great difficulty cutting it. One thing to call it is echo imformation. If a pair of speakers is hung between the two plus outputs it can be heard. The Hafler effect is very nice if you are careful with amplifier loading. Real four channel which reduces listening fatigue. Even surface noise seems less. Use a digital version and it all gets worse. That must tell you something? 4 Linn Kans would be ideal.
The LP12 springs being a barrier to feedback is slightly false. At - 60 dB nothing special is happening. Dr Dolly of Harwell gave in to my request and measured it. He tried to brow beat me with maths which isn't my worst subject. He could measure his wife putting out the washing! Oddly he could not measure Didcot power Station 2 miles away! Well done Didcot. This doesn't bring the springs into doubt. Just their exact function. On the whole I agree with you.
The major reason for the vertical bounce is the most valuable stereo imformation is in that direction. The cutting lathe had great difficulty cutting it. One thing to call it is echo imformation. If a pair of speakers is hung between the two plus outputs it can be heard. The Hafler effect is very nice if you are careful with amplifier loading. Real four channel which reduces listening fatigue. Even surface noise seems less. Use a digital version and it all gets worse. That must tell you something? 4 Linn Kans would be ideal.
The LP12 springs being a barrier to feedback is slightly false. At - 60 dB nothing special is happening. Dr Dolly of Harwell gave in to my request and measured it. He tried to brow beat me with maths which isn't my worst subject. He could measure his wife putting out the washing! Oddly he could not measure Didcot power Station 2 miles away! Well done Didcot. This doesn't bring the springs into doubt. Just their exact function. On the whole I agree with you.