There are a couple of things about this thread which interest me. (a) The Behringer has a polypropylene cone. These are often, lets say, rubbished
in the forums. (b) the woofer was only 83/4 inches. I did note that the sound levels were not overly loud but the room was quite large for a home.
(c)The Behringer was two way with a CD waveguide.
Perhaps it shows that relatively simple is capable of good presentation in the
domestic situation. As a lot of people seem to favour using 10 inch woofers I wonder if this would be a most practical setup for a lot of us, and in particular for people just starting out. Perhaps even 21/2 way with two 10s or 8s to get some low grunt as they say. I think sensitivity or, what ever it is, into the low-mid 90s would be a good thing too.
If I had a job or a pension I would be looking at this format, but that's a whole other story. There have been DIY reference builds before with contributions to the design from members. Would this format be worthy of
such development with a kit available at the end so that it did not become
yet another theoretical thread?
jamikl
in the forums. (b) the woofer was only 83/4 inches. I did note that the sound levels were not overly loud but the room was quite large for a home.
(c)The Behringer was two way with a CD waveguide.
Perhaps it shows that relatively simple is capable of good presentation in the
domestic situation. As a lot of people seem to favour using 10 inch woofers I wonder if this would be a most practical setup for a lot of us, and in particular for people just starting out. Perhaps even 21/2 way with two 10s or 8s to get some low grunt as they say. I think sensitivity or, what ever it is, into the low-mid 90s would be a good thing too.
If I had a job or a pension I would be looking at this format, but that's a whole other story. There have been DIY reference builds before with contributions to the design from members. Would this format be worthy of
such development with a kit available at the end so that it did not become
yet another theoretical thread?
jamikl
Last edited:
The Orions contain a much longer and less transparent signal chain than most preamps, especially minimalist designs. Your observation merely states their excellence at masking.
Surely that's a statement that is true for all loudspeakers compared with (well designed) preamps and power amps. I wouldn't single out the Orions in that respect.
The more interesting question is do the Orions transmit the input signal to the room with more accuracy and tangible sonic impact than other loudspeaker designs?
No.
Most loudspeakers don't have that huge train of electronics in front of them. Every stage (and there are a lot of them), every op-amp, will add another layer of not quite transparent (some would say i'm being charitable) film between the preamp & the speaker, burying any of the subtle nuance.
dave
There's a large train of electronics in front of the music on the source material you're playing on your system right now. Most likely many more op-amps, capacitive DC blockers, etc, etc, than is contained in the Orion ASP.
Also remember the Orion ASP is an entirely analog unit and doesn't have any of those horrible ADC's and DAC's that bury the subtle nuance in DSP units.
Let's consider the whole picture.
Cheers,
Dave.
Also remember the Orion ASP is an entirely analog unit and doesn't have any of those horrible ADC's and DAC's that bury the subtle nuance in DSP units.
Let's consider the whole picture.
Cheers,
Dave.
The active crossover design of the Orions is likely to be much more accurate, transparent and benign to the amps then a similar transfer function implemented as a passive design - that's just well established engineering knowledge.
Thoroughly agree.
More accurate i'll give you. Not necessarily as benign. A passive XO & loudspeaker don't produce the 4th, 5th, 6th .... order distortion products of a piece of electronics, especially one with lots of feedback.
dave
It all seems a "Tempest in a Teapot" to me. 
Have you ever heard the Orion? Nice speaker, but not an imaging monster. Rather flat from my listening experience.
Oddly, only I seem to be the only one to have commented on what should be a very important point.
"The core group found that AS could not be judged without EQ-ing the speakers"
The Behringer and the Eickmeier had to be EQ'd to match the Orion. Even then:
"Matching was not perfect even after EQ"
Important?
The Behringer and the Eickmeier also had subwoofer support. That is going to change things. The test results are not surprising to me. It was only a test of "AS", nothing more. For that the Orion is not the best I've ever heard, not by a long shot. Something more mundane or more bizarre just might do better. Seems they did - a little.
Have you ever heard the Orion? Nice speaker, but not an imaging monster. Rather flat from my listening experience.
Oddly, only I seem to be the only one to have commented on what should be a very important point.
"The core group found that AS could not be judged without EQ-ing the speakers"
The Behringer and the Eickmeier had to be EQ'd to match the Orion. Even then:
"Matching was not perfect even after EQ"
Important?
The Behringer and the Eickmeier also had subwoofer support. That is going to change things. The test results are not surprising to me. It was only a test of "AS", nothing more. For that the Orion is not the best I've ever heard, not by a long shot. Something more mundane or more bizarre just might do better. Seems they did - a little.
I wonder whether this is the case. As an example, look at the Zaphaudio harmonic distortion measurements on some of the more upmarket woofers (eg. the scanspeak 18WU8741T00 or the seas W18EX001; if we look at woofers rather than tweeters the 5th harmonic has more chance of being in the audible range). I see that the 5th harmonic is mostly around 70 decibels down from the fundamental, or about 0.03%. I would be surprised if the total harmonic distortion, let alone just the 5th harmonic, of the opamp circuits in the orion crossover was much higher than this, assuming reasonably competent design!
Yeah, I would agree with that. On my Orion ASP distortion products above third-order are unmeasurable. At least with my measuring system.
Cheers,
Dave.
And in what way is harmonic distortion relevant to audible transparency? Apart form really gross examples?
Ask someone with a high thd producing SET power amp whether they can hear the sound of a single opamp upstream and you may get quite surprised by their strong opinions and preferences. Mass delusion?
Ask someone with a high thd producing SET power amp whether they can hear the sound of a single opamp upstream and you may get quite surprised by their strong opinions and preferences. Mass delusion?
That's a rhetorical question, or were you really asking me or Dave(Planet10?)
I was just responding that measureable THD levels are lower (in this example) of electronics than the transducers. Whether or not it's audible, and how it relates to "transparency".....if it does, is kind of another subject. So, I would agree with your rhetorical question, if indeed it was.
Cheers,
Dave.
I was just responding that measureable THD levels are lower (in this example) of electronics than the transducers. Whether or not it's audible, and how it relates to "transparency".....if it does, is kind of another subject. So, I would agree with your rhetorical question, if indeed it was.
Cheers,
Dave.
Very relevant, actually. It all depends on the spectrum.
But I've beat that one to death in other threads. Kinda OT here.
It is such extraordinary claims that make this forum interesting. Please tell more about the opamp-inductor comparison. While i don't doubt your impressions it will be essential to disclose the exact particulars - circuit, inductor type, etc.
Do you expect someone with a tube inductive riaa to be keen to replace the inductors with opamps?
Amusingly a friend of mine uses grid chokes at opamp inputs and claims it improves them a lot.
As for the -150db, if this parameter is really so important, why are such low distorting opamps easily distinguished by ear. Should they not all sound the same?
I use the cheapest op-amp available which is TL072 and it's transparent.
Lately I use DSP (MIniDSP) with all ADC => DAC conversions. It is also transparent.
Electronics are nothing when compared to loudspeakers & room. People can change op-amp, caps, etc. and they are not blind tested.
This is why the Orion-Behringer is very interesting. It is blind tested and free from bias.
Lately I use DSP (MIniDSP) with all ADC => DAC conversions. It is also transparent.
Electronics are nothing when compared to loudspeakers & room. People can change op-amp, caps, etc. and they are not blind tested.
This is why the Orion-Behringer is very interesting. It is blind tested and free from bias.
You can't take it in isolation like that. See the IMD sims below. When you step back and include the amplifier, actively filtering before the amp can have its advantages, especially at lower frequencies. Yes, you could use a PLLXO, but it gets pretty limiting for anything but 1st order.
Attachments
Last edited:
analog:
I replaced the passive xover in my Tannoys with an active one so effectively replacing the lp series inductor with what originally were TL072 and lf353 op amps and there are a lot of them in my particular xover.
Active the bass is 'tight' and 'clean', passive it sounded 'smeared', 'mushy' and dare I say distorted. Now those Tannoys produce 0.5% THD at 95dB but I am fairly certain it is a fair bit less now as I did a test of how much distortion I can hear with the result that I could consistently hear distortion down to about 46dB below signal level.
Those TL072 and lf353 sound slightly different from each other and rather bad truth be told but still a lot better than the inductor. I have since replaced them with better sounding BB2134.
As for people with valves in their replay chain I really don't care what they do. Personally and as much as I love valves in the recording chain (preferably in the shape of instrument amps but in mic pres etc they are nice too) I certainly do not want them in my replay chain. What I do like a lot are big, juicy transistor amps which give me plenty of head room, my home stereo is driven with a total of 925w per channel for an almost endless supply of clean power.
I suppose that the better they get the more similar op amps would sound.
May be they are so easily distinguished by ear because they distort less than alternatives? Some people enjoy even harmonic distortions and that certainly is their prerogative.
I replaced the passive xover in my Tannoys with an active one so effectively replacing the lp series inductor with what originally were TL072 and lf353 op amps and there are a lot of them in my particular xover.
Active the bass is 'tight' and 'clean', passive it sounded 'smeared', 'mushy' and dare I say distorted. Now those Tannoys produce 0.5% THD at 95dB but I am fairly certain it is a fair bit less now as I did a test of how much distortion I can hear with the result that I could consistently hear distortion down to about 46dB below signal level.
Those TL072 and lf353 sound slightly different from each other and rather bad truth be told but still a lot better than the inductor. I have since replaced them with better sounding BB2134.
As for people with valves in their replay chain I really don't care what they do. Personally and as much as I love valves in the recording chain (preferably in the shape of instrument amps but in mic pres etc they are nice too) I certainly do not want them in my replay chain. What I do like a lot are big, juicy transistor amps which give me plenty of head room, my home stereo is driven with a total of 925w per channel for an almost endless supply of clean power.
I suppose that the better they get the more similar op amps would sound.
May be they are so easily distinguished by ear because they distort less than alternatives? Some people enjoy even harmonic distortions and that certainly is their prerogative.
You really believe the distortion came down after removing the inductor while keeping the crossover parameters the same?
LF353 i last used in 1983. Not pleasant memories. You should really splurge out on some 5534s for Christmas
You really believe the distortion came down after removing the inductor while keeping the crossover parameters the same?
LF353 i last used in 1983. Not pleasant memories. You should really splurge out on some 5534s for Christmas
Absolutely.
The bass now sounds like it did live in the studio whereas before it did not.
Any change by definition must be distortion.
Admittedly I changed the xover from 'over-damped 12dB lp' (as per Tannoy speak) to 24dB L-R. The xover point remained the same more or less. Tannoy uses a 6dB hp with a notch filter whereas I use 24dB L-R and a parametric eq to achieve the same.
For the time I'm quite happy with my Burr-Brown 2134. To get anything appreciably better I'd have to not only change op amps but change some caps too which would be a pain in the neck.
Also they would cost a lot more than the £0.78 each I paid for the 2134s and I'd need quite a few of them.
Last edited: