Lineup of four: Help me choose?! OPT for SE

[sgerus]

For what this is worth:
How about the appearance of the amplifier? For me the best looking amps are one’s where the OPT’s have the same look as the power transformer. Wavelength Audio is a great example of someone that builds good looking amplifiers.

Also completely agree with all the good comments about Jack@Electraprint
He actually answers the phone and has plenty of time to talk with you! How about partial silver OPT from Jack… They are priced on the low end of others you mentioned.
Then you can get a custom built power with the same look and finish.

Some of the other manufactures mentioned don’t even answer the phone….

 

[WE91]

Hi

I'll be checking a bit on the vendor of the NOS Tango X-3.5S and I do not necessarily believe it to be better than many other OPT designs mentioned here. It does however got a "legendary status" and I guess that's not without reason. It was one of the OPTs Thomas, of Daburu, used as a reference when developing his top of the line, that you've got in your closet, bambadoo.
The NOS Tango is expensive. So expensive that I know either Mike at MagneQuest, Jack at Electra Print or Brian at Sowter will get an e-mail from me conserning making an OPT just as good, or perhaps even better than this Tango. It is, in a way, a reference. I love the "custom-nature" of these three OPT-makers mentioned! I believe the MagneQuest and Electra Print to be even more flexible than Sowter, though!? They can expect an e-mail about custom OPT from me - and I'll evaluate things as we go ahead. The various type of irons you mentioned did sound very interesting, Mike ...
The other makes mentioned in this string, makes their std./off the shelf products - and you must find one of these to fit, - or forget about it.

The WE91 derived Lux amplifier is my choice of amp here. It is about the special magic in this circuit, as Mike pointed out, but also that the Lux is modified to cope with the "shortcomings" of the WE91. In this process the Lux has "lost" some of the magic from its root-design, but I believe to be able to get this back again with, among other things, the OPT.

Thank you so very much to all of you who have contributed to this thread.

Regards Aril

 

[shooter]

I have the Intact 5K 8R amorphous core output transformers, it is a great sounding transformer, the core is hugh, Dave prefer to wind a single secondary tap only, he can also supply different shims so you can set your own gap if you like to get the best bass from your specific application, appearance wise is nothing much to look at, I am very happy with the sound, my amp uses 6J5, 5687 output is 50 or 300B.

 

[Vlauga]

Use only original TANGO by HIRATA Corp. XE60-3.5S. Not ISO! China core...
With HIRATA Corp. you receive crystal-clear top, the detailed middle and the most beautiful velvet a bass.

Do not use any amorphous core! In it there is no life!

 

[WE91]

Thank you, Vlauga!
The Tango OPT I have been offered for 1400USD are Hirata Tango X-3.5S New Old Stock. Thank you for sharing conserning ISO Tango! I also believe in what you are saying conserning amorphous, as I believe this core material being a hype today. Almost all the time you get poor bass quality (or at least poorer), very 'transparent-like' MF (often lacking density) and clear highs, that are often bordering on aggressive - or at least tiring for the ear - sometimes even harsh. There's probably a few designers that can make an amorphous sound good - but ... In general other core-materal is more balanced-sounding. Why have a SET sound like SS or class D??

Regards Aril

 

[JandG]

Just wondering .....Have you listened to James 6123. ????
I am curiouse to your thoughts if you have.
J & G

 

[Vlauga]

Thank you, Vlauga!
The Tango OPT I have been offered for 1400USD are Hirata Tango X-3.5S New Old Stock. Thank you for sharing conserning ISO Tango! I also believe in what you are saying conserning amorphous, as I believe this core material being a hype today. Almost all the time you get poor bass quality (or at least poorer), very 'transparent-like' MF (often lacking density) and clear highs, that are often bordering on aggressive - or at least tiring for the ear - sometimes even harsh. There's probably a few designers that can make an amorphous sound good - but ... In general other core-materal is more balanced-sounding. Why have a SET sound like SS or class D??

Regards Aril

I listened Tango X-3.5S by Hirata.
It is the same big sound, as well as at Tango XE60-3.5S. Tango X-3.5S it is senior model Hirata, ~6 kg. Tango XE60-3.5S ~4.5 kg.
But I liked sounding XE60-3.5S, because it more "tubes" sound on bass. At Tango X-3.5S bass as at very good transistor amplifier, collected and dense.
At Tango XE60-3.5S bass more "tubes", velvet, but at the same time dense enough.

 

[WE91]

Hi JandG!
No, haven'theard any amp with the James iron. It seems like a nice OPT though - and I believe many people in here have tried it, or know James iron very well. Perhaps someone would like to comment here? I feel that when you consider "value" iron, that Silk S-325 ought to be on your list. Have a look at Hashimoto H-20-2.5U, Magnequest Robin Hood
Silk
Hashimoto
MQ
The James 6123-HS you mention seem to get good reports from users, and seem to be on par with - or even outperforming the lower end Tango and Tamura iron. I believe the above mentioned examples will give the James very stiff competition, but this is only based on data and impressions/heresay.

Regards Aril

 

[WE91]

Hi again Vlauga!
Interesting! Was it a 300B SE amp. by any chance you listened to? The core of the Tango X-3.5S is huge and can handle 40W (at what freq.?).
I don't have the data for the XE60-3.5S, but the data for the X-3.5S are most impressive:
Zp 3.5KOhm with prim. ind. 38H at 100mA, insertion loss is 0.22dB !!
I believe the MagneQuest FS-030 have almost similar primary inductance, and weigh in at around 4.5kg ...

Thank you Vlauga for your report on subjective sound on these rare and legendary OPTs !!

Regards Aril

 

[Vlauga]

Amorphous there is very high-frequency iron, very thin. Because of it such unnatural sound. Probably, for use in transistor amplifiers amorphous iron will suit. But I yet did not make transistor amplifiers with trans on amorphous iron. Unfortunately, for tubes amplifiers amorphous iron has a bad sound. For tubes amplifiers it is necessary to use only a high class electrotechnical iron, or permalloy(mu metal).

James 6123 worthy transformer. ~ Tango ISO Corp. XE20-S. But it not level TAMURA or TANGO by Hirata on detail and soundstage. (Imho)))

 

[Vlauga]

There is no comparison between Tango X-3.5S and Magnequest FS-030.
Tango X-3.5S there is unconditional murderer MQ FS-030. Unconditionally!
But I like Tango XE60-3.5S))) It too the first-rate quality more. A current of saturation ~170mA. Inductance ~ 30H at measurement.

I made on 300B and on PX25.

 

[Vlauga]

Trans Silk I did not hear. And Hashimoto H--20-3.5U me have disappointed.... On quite admissible for them source Cunningham 2A3 (monoplate) they sounded a little bit dirtly, granular for middle and high... Tamura F-475 in the same amplifier it was excellent!

 

[WE91]

Thank you again Vlauga for your most spirited impression on Hirata Tango XE 60-3.5S and X-3.5S vs MQ FS-030 ;-)
I know these irons are legendary ... Would you believe that there are any valid competitors to these Hirata Tango?
Partridge TH4663 (used by J Hiraga in L'Audiophile WE91)?
Tamura F-7002 (specced for only 10W!)?
Audio Note Japan (Kondo)?
Hashimoto H-30-3.5S ?


Regards Aril

 

[Vlauga]

Thank you again Vlauga for your most spirited impression on Hirata Tango XE 60-3.5S and X-3.5S vs MQ FS-030 ;-)
I know these irons are legendary ... Would you believe that there are any valid competitors to these Hirata Tango?
Partridge TH4663 (used by J Hiraga in L'Audiophile WE91)?
Tamura F-7002 (specced for only 10W!)?
Audio Note Japan (Kondo)?
Hashimoto H-30-3.5S ?


Regards Aril

Partridge it did not hear.
To me was pleased also Tamura F-2007, very superB sound with 300B.
You confuse 10 Watt? Do not worry in this occasion! In Tamura honest measurements, only))) (probably) at lowest frequency. In all other trans the power is measured on 50Hz or 60Hz.

Kondo (Japan) used transformer iron which bought from Mr. Hirata.)) Because mister Hirata very for long experimented with different additives to the composition of iron and further working of this iron with the production of cores. As a result his iron greatly valued.

Furthermore, mister Hirata made the windings by hand, repeatedly alternating layers. Similar can be made only manual coil. Therefore in Tamura considerably worse frequency characteristics. But the expensive transformers TAMURA also very very magnificently sound, somewhat more tenderloins than Tango, i.e., less exquisitely - I do not know how to say it in English ((


Hashimoto H--30-3.5s I did not hear. What for, if I had Tango and Tamura)?
But Hashimoto H-20-3.5U to me has not liked.

 

[audiowize]

When first speaking about the Lux, DIY Hifi posted up the schematic for review. Many well respected engineers found countless problems in the design, and none have been addressed so far. Additionally, this amplifier does not run with an interstage transformer, and their use of the word is borderline fraud. You might want to consider another direction. Also, claming they can get 12 watts out of a 300B is quite silly.

 

[WE91]

Again, thank you Vlauga! it seems that you have quite a lot experience with and know how of these fine Japanese irons!
I really appreciate that you dare be so direct and frank about your impressions and findings. So then I see that Hashimoto doesn't hold a candle to the better Tamura and Hirata Tango.

Do you have any opinion about the american OPT designers in general, Vlauga? Are there any good designs you know of?

I have heard the L'Audiophile WE91 with Partridge OPT - and believe it to sound very controlled but still tunefull in the bass, lush but open midrange and sweet highs. I have a Lectron JH50 with PP Partridge iron, and the sound from this is very open and detailed with great bass!

Quote about todays "hype" core-materials from Jack Eliano at Electra Print

CORE MATERIALS
Nickel laminations are used for low level audio, which have little or no winding current. But nickel saturates quickly and distortion will result at the bass end due to the primary inductance which decreases with higher signal level. Nickel cannot be of any practical use in SE type transformers because an extremely large amount of nickel laminations would need to be used with a large gap to slow its saturation. In the end, this would act just like standard lamination material. It’s important to note that large nickel laminations are not manufactured and that standard laminations are a fraction of the cost of nickel. Cobalt is similar to nickel plus it is much more expensive than nickel, forget it.

Amorphous cores have there use with higher frequency service. They were originally developed for aircraft equipment operating at 400Hz. These amorphous transformers then weighed less per Volt-Ampere (VA). For full bandwidth audio, amorphous transformers can be difficult to design. This material shows less permeability at low frequencies and peak at 1 kHz. Low frequency power response versus core mass could be compromised. A flat frequency response across the usable audio spectrum would then be a problem. These cores are also very expensive. These materials when used with a SE type transformer offer an output that varies with the change in permeability with signal level and frequency unlike the standard materials.

 

[WE91]

Hi audiowize!
I've never seen any critics on the Lux ...
Do you have any links to where I might learn more???
There's a sort of cathode follower driver for the 300B, but configured quite differently than the usual with a choke - and there's the pentode driver ... This driver is supposedly able to really drive the 300B well. The cathode follower is known for this, but in the Lux it is, like I wrote, diffrently configured and thus called a "reactive interstage". I do not know any more than this, other than I was a bit sceptic at first about the sound of a cathode follower driver, but feedback on the Lux together with good descriptions from Brian Cherry (very good service!) I calmed down and understood this as being a very well sounding amplifier!

Regards Aril.

 

[Vlauga]

Unfortunately, Japan is located more close to that place where I live, than America)))
Therefore from American sound trans for tube SE amp I heard only MQ FS-030 and only one big SE transformer from Hammond.
With Mr. Eliano from Las Vegas I corresponded, when wished to order interstage trans on 10K/60mA primare.
Of correspondence I had an impression, that he very correctly understands as to do transformers. But to buy from him has not developed, because I have found channel with Japan.

 

[jlsem]

A friend of mine (shooter in this thread) and I A/B'd four different opt's in his Wiesner type '50 amp for many hours over about six weeks. The opt's were wired with connectors so the amp could be switched off and the opt's changed over quickly. The opt's auditioned were the Tango U-808 which came with the amp, the James 6123 on the 5K tap, the James 6157 on the 7K tap and the Intact Audio amorphous-core which I believe was also 7K. The Slagle-built Intact was clearly the superior opt. The U-808 should never be considered for a serious design, but both James' offered very good value.

John

 

[arnoldc]

Where is this "Lux 300B" schematic?