Re: Re: Lineup of four: Help me choose?! OPT for SE
This is an old, dead thread.
He actually wasn't asking you.. Lineup (line-up, etc) here just refers to a collection of items for comparison, in this case 4 different output transformer options to consider for his amplifier project.
See here for definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-up
lineup said:
This is an old, dead thread.
He actually wasn't asking you.. Lineup (line-up, etc) here just refers to a collection of items for comparison, in this case 4 different output transformer options to consider for his amplifier project.See here for definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-up
Thank you very much for clarification, kevinkr!
I have found that Sowter are OPT's I respect hugely! I will recommend everyone thinking of a OPT for any project to send Brian Sowter a mail ... Menno Van der Veen is another very nice man to approach for an OPT for your SE 300B amp! The SE Amplimo/Plitron with silver secondaries (read what Eliano at Electraprint says about silver in OPT's) is probably one of the very best offerings too ...
gilmorneau : The supplier of NOS Hirata Tango was a Chinese company selling ISO Tango's with the old Hirata names! There's hope (at a price, though): Hirata works together with Kondo and makes the Audio Note-Japan expensive OPT's ...
If you're at a budget: Electraprint and Silk!!! (I'm really impressed with service, level of craftmanship and attitude!!), but the originally supplied OPT's in Lux from DIY Hi Fi Supply might be just as good or close ...
I have found that Sowter are OPT's I respect hugely! I will recommend everyone thinking of a OPT for any project to send Brian Sowter a mail ... Menno Van der Veen is another very nice man to approach for an OPT for your SE 300B amp! The SE Amplimo/Plitron with silver secondaries (read what Eliano at Electraprint says about silver in OPT's) is probably one of the very best offerings too ...
gilmorneau : The supplier of NOS Hirata Tango was a Chinese company selling ISO Tango's with the old Hirata names! There's hope (at a price, though): Hirata works together with Kondo and makes the Audio Note-Japan expensive OPT's ...
If you're at a budget: Electraprint and Silk!!! (I'm really impressed with service, level of craftmanship and attitude!!), but the originally supplied OPT's in Lux from DIY Hi Fi Supply might be just as good or close ...
check this man, he tought me a great deal, and has nothing to hide. wonderfully honest and helpful.
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/for-sale-2-output-transformers.html
check out his reading section too!! not affilated in any way.
I have taken a big break, and its helped me see things in a clear light.
Its quite bizarre, that we buy such expensive things, without even being able to hear them.
If we bought furniture, or a car, we would look, perhaps sit in it, try it out.
Yet with audio, we are expected to part with 100s or 1000s at the drop of a hat.
Is this right? Is it right makers encourage subjectivism, yet expect us to pay these prices without being
able to try in our own environment?
Based upon some, perhaps vested internet review, or on the opinions of others, some with vested interests perhaps, some who may know a little, some a lot, some who are clueless.
this notion of 'best', why are audionote considered even at the top?
what is the 'best'
how in transformers is it recognized...
price?
what matters?
why?
what makes a difference?
what do we know?
In reality, very little.
There is little correlation of measurements to sound quality.
Why should an expensive, rare material actually sound better?
does it in practise, bit of a coincidence, a maker saying an expensive material sounds better?
why should a more permeable material sound better?
silver is only 6% more conductive? than copper, I believe, thus, it should only sound proportionally better, IF you use that as a criteria, which is pretty insignificant.
Much of audionotes prior ramblings on stuff are nothing more than propaganda, purely to peddle products for profit.
Why are audionote one of the best?
criteria,
proof,
investigation?
ask...?
there is none, its pure image.
that's my criticism, nothing personal, challenge assumptions.
there is no proof whatsover
Do not accept ONE WORD a maker gives you that isn't vefifiable by science.
There is no evidence, no proof that any one material in a transformer will make it sound better.
If there were, the other parts would be discredited immediately.
There has been little independant testing, the makers can't even agree on criteria or produce similar specifications
Like a car salesman, all they are interested in is YOUR money. Remember that.
Its all about money in the end.
ps., do try turneraudio.com in australia, he's a good man. I trust him, he talks engineering sense.
pps
I tried hammond, silk, 3 chinese, diy hifi supplies own x2, electraprint, james.
Much is down to longevity ( professional survival) , size, professionalism,
sowter comes out here.....and some others...
to a certain extent, avoid one man bands, trust big companies with established legacies. one man's may come and go.
ignore fads. ignore the next best thing. trust longstanding advise.
avoid self appointed gurus
the only truth, really, is your own ears, in your own room, with your own equipment.
only you can decide in the end.
all said in order to help filter truth from untruth.
perhaps also ease of selling on? if you don't like them?
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/for-sale-2-output-transformers.html
check out his reading section too!! not affilated in any way.
I have taken a big break, and its helped me see things in a clear light.
Its quite bizarre, that we buy such expensive things, without even being able to hear them.
If we bought furniture, or a car, we would look, perhaps sit in it, try it out.
Yet with audio, we are expected to part with 100s or 1000s at the drop of a hat.
Is this right? Is it right makers encourage subjectivism, yet expect us to pay these prices without being
able to try in our own environment?
Based upon some, perhaps vested internet review, or on the opinions of others, some with vested interests perhaps, some who may know a little, some a lot, some who are clueless.
this notion of 'best', why are audionote considered even at the top?
what is the 'best'
how in transformers is it recognized...
price?
what matters?
why?
what makes a difference?
what do we know?
In reality, very little.
There is little correlation of measurements to sound quality.
Why should an expensive, rare material actually sound better?
does it in practise, bit of a coincidence, a maker saying an expensive material sounds better?
why should a more permeable material sound better?
silver is only 6% more conductive? than copper, I believe, thus, it should only sound proportionally better, IF you use that as a criteria, which is pretty insignificant.
Much of audionotes prior ramblings on stuff are nothing more than propaganda, purely to peddle products for profit.
Why are audionote one of the best?
criteria,
proof,
investigation?
ask...?
there is none, its pure image.
that's my criticism, nothing personal, challenge assumptions.
there is no proof whatsover
Do not accept ONE WORD a maker gives you that isn't vefifiable by science.
There is no evidence, no proof that any one material in a transformer will make it sound better.
If there were, the other parts would be discredited immediately.
There has been little independant testing, the makers can't even agree on criteria or produce similar specifications
Like a car salesman, all they are interested in is YOUR money. Remember that.
Its all about money in the end.
ps., do try turneraudio.com in australia, he's a good man. I trust him, he talks engineering sense.
pps
I tried hammond, silk, 3 chinese, diy hifi supplies own x2, electraprint, james.
Much is down to longevity ( professional survival) , size, professionalism,
sowter comes out here.....and some others...
to a certain extent, avoid one man bands, trust big companies with established legacies. one man's may come and go.
ignore fads. ignore the next best thing. trust longstanding advise.
avoid self appointed gurus
the only truth, really, is your own ears, in your own room, with your own equipment.
only you can decide in the end.
all said in order to help filter truth from untruth.
perhaps also ease of selling on? if you don't like them?
This thread has been dead for a year or more! You can leave it dead!
And you are ... Self appointed - guru (actually meaning teacher) or ... I hope not, since I think you used the word *guru* in a condescending way. To your information, I am not the one you should be pointing at! You started your posting in a very good and positive way, but then gradually ...
Please read the whole thread befor assuming anything on my behalf! You'll se that this is exactly what you are asking for - an attempt (a humble one at that) to make a map of the jungle you are describing. We have taken the "fad" new core materials into consideration in this thread, and you seem to agree with what this thread says. When talking about people with real insight and knowledge, please refrain from talking down at people like Brian Sowter, Menno van der Veen, Hirata or Jack Eliano (the ones I mentioned in my last post) or any other designer mentioned in the thread ... If you do, it only shows that you have none to very little knowledge and respect for these people their insight and knowledge and their products. Even if Kondo/Hirata from the Japanese Audio Note have products with a rediculous price tag, still please try a more humble and listening approach. Read the thread and do so with a more open mind. No offense to you as a person! This is only a reaction to your words. - And please excuse me if I have in any way misunderstood you!
Best Regards Aril
And you are ... Self appointed - guru (actually meaning teacher) or ...
I hope not, since I think you used the word *guru* in a condescending way. To your information, I am not the one you should be pointing at! You started your posting in a very good and positive way, but then gradually ...Please read the whole thread befor assuming anything on my behalf! You'll se that this is exactly what you are asking for - an attempt (a humble one at that) to make a map of the jungle you are describing. We have taken the "fad" new core materials into consideration in this thread, and you seem to agree with what this thread says. When talking about people with real insight and knowledge, please refrain from talking down at people like Brian Sowter, Menno van der Veen, Hirata or Jack Eliano (the ones I mentioned in my last post) or any other designer mentioned in the thread ... If you do, it only shows that you have none to very little knowledge and respect for these people their insight and knowledge and their products. Even if Kondo/Hirata from the Japanese Audio Note have products with a rediculous price tag, still please try a more humble and listening approach. Read the thread and do so with a more open mind. No offense to you as a person! This is only a reaction to your words. - And please excuse me if I have in any way misunderstood you!
Best Regards Aril
lt_cdr_data I have heard (and worked on) a number of Audio Note Japan/Kondo* amplifiers and while they are hideously expensive they actually do deserve the hype and those transformers (you are so critical of) are certainly a big part of that recipe.
Note that I am not saying you can't achieve similar levels of performance for less money. but try to sell something of comparable performance and build quality commercially in low volumes and you will quickly discover that the prices make more business sense than you realized initially. This is primarily a rich man's toy like a yacht, or exotic sports car, plane, etc.
In point of fact if you want to be scientific there is no rational excuse for using a tube in an audio amplifier in this day and age. Competently designed solid state amps measure better in every imaginable parameter than any tube amplifier, but undeniably many of us hear many worthwhile things in them that we cannot measure in any meaningful way.
Just to be clear I am one of those irrational, unscientific individuals who believes that tubes in general perform as well or better than solid state in most audio applications.
I agree with WE91 that this thread has served its purpose, and these discussions could become the topic of a new thread.
Footnote:
* I am specifically talking about Audio Note Japan later to be known as Kondo, not the UK based outfit.
Note that I am not saying you can't achieve similar levels of performance for less money. but try to sell something of comparable performance and build quality commercially in low volumes and you will quickly discover that the prices make more business sense than you realized initially. This is primarily a rich man's toy like a yacht, or exotic sports car, plane, etc.
In point of fact if you want to be scientific there is no rational excuse for using a tube in an audio amplifier in this day and age. Competently designed solid state amps measure better in every imaginable parameter than any tube amplifier, but undeniably many of us hear many worthwhile things in them that we cannot measure in any meaningful way.
Just to be clear I am one of those irrational, unscientific individuals who believes that tubes in general perform as well or better than solid state in most audio applications.
I agree with WE91 that this thread has served its purpose, and these discussions could become the topic of a new thread.
Footnote:
* I am specifically talking about Audio Note Japan later to be known as Kondo, not the UK based outfit.
questions about OPT's ...
without question the most highly regarded OPT is the silver primary/secondary winding transformer from AMPLIMO ... but who has the 4grand each for that ?
if i could rank it ...
1. amplimo silver torroidal + amplimo "LN" [low noise] power transformer
2. amplimo copper torroidal + amplimo "LN" power transformer ..
3. hashimoto opt + hashimoto power ..
4. tamura opt + tamura opt ...
but considering the cost .. maybe the hashimoto opt [$560/pr] with the hashimoto power [$330/each] may just be the best bang for the buck ..
SoundTradition Home Page
one of these days i am going to try the decware zkit2 monoblocks with hashimoto iron and a couple black gate caps and try this open baffle thing with some audio nirvana super 8 alnico's .. [meanwhile lusting after the big PHY KM30 SAG's] ..
that amplimo silver is supposed to be a game changer .. but one day i can upgrade from hashimoto to silver torroids and if you dont see me on the web for a while that will be a serious endorsement indeed
without question the most highly regarded OPT is the silver primary/secondary winding transformer from AMPLIMO ... but who has the 4grand each for that ?
if i could rank it ...
1. amplimo silver torroidal + amplimo "LN" [low noise] power transformer
2. amplimo copper torroidal + amplimo "LN" power transformer ..
3. hashimoto opt + hashimoto power ..
4. tamura opt + tamura opt ...
but considering the cost .. maybe the hashimoto opt [$560/pr] with the hashimoto power [$330/each] may just be the best bang for the buck ..
SoundTradition Home Page
one of these days i am going to try the decware zkit2 monoblocks with hashimoto iron and a couple black gate caps and try this open baffle thing with some audio nirvana super 8 alnico's .. [meanwhile lusting after the big PHY KM30 SAG's] ..
that amplimo silver is supposed to be a game changer .. but one day i can upgrade from hashimoto to silver torroids and if you dont see me on the web for a while that will be a serious endorsement indeed
Dissagree
Well, things are not as you write.
To be honest, far from above. Do not make such assumptions regarding core material if you have not direct exposure to transformer manufacturing.
Whatever you listen to is the result of a huge combination of parameters and NOT ONLY the core material. Each material behaves totally differently in the frequency domain due to different properties in various frequencies when DC loaded.
I have wound many transformers made of specially ordered amorphous treated alloy and they sound trully spectacular. Trust me! Perfectly balanced sound, full of harmonics and amazing tonal accuracy. Amorphous is just a thermal treatment, not an alloy. What has more impact is the alloy composition and not that much the thermal treatment, with the thermal treatment you balance out other parameters, but each alloy, treated or not will have a distinct character, all else being equal. Say e.g. permalloy has a character of its own, CRGO another character.
I have nothing but fully agree with you on the sound of Lundahl amorphous transformers. Sterile sound, bad tonality.
If you want more info on the sound character of transformers proposed for audio applications, feel free to write me
petavgeris (at) gmail (dot) com.
Thank you!
Well, things are not as you write.
To be honest, far from above. Do not make such assumptions regarding core material if you have not direct exposure to transformer manufacturing.
Whatever you listen to is the result of a huge combination of parameters and NOT ONLY the core material. Each material behaves totally differently in the frequency domain due to different properties in various frequencies when DC loaded.
I have wound many transformers made of specially ordered amorphous treated alloy and they sound trully spectacular. Trust me! Perfectly balanced sound, full of harmonics and amazing tonal accuracy. Amorphous is just a thermal treatment, not an alloy. What has more impact is the alloy composition and not that much the thermal treatment, with the thermal treatment you balance out other parameters, but each alloy, treated or not will have a distinct character, all else being equal. Say e.g. permalloy has a character of its own, CRGO another character.
I have nothing but fully agree with you on the sound of Lundahl amorphous transformers. Sterile sound, bad tonality.
If you want more info on the sound character of transformers proposed for audio applications, feel free to write me
petavgeris (at) gmail (dot) com.
Thank you!
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