The public school model came from Prussia, all because they lost to Napoleon. See interviews with John Gatto, as well as videos like this one.
SCHOOL SUCKS: The American Way - YouTube
They tried this in Britian in the 1970s. The idea was "leave kids in a room full of books, and they will teach themselves".
It didn't work.
Turns out that if you leave kids in a room full of books all you end up with is a lot of simple kids and a very untidy room.
You might get a few bright kids too, but the others will then bully them into submission to the ignorant norm. Sadly, this happens in some parts of British society (and doubtless elsewhere too).Merlinb said:
This type of 'utopian' school might work in a place with supportive parents and common beliefs etc. but it is not a recipe for universal success.
See post #22 for that.
I was there last summer and it's all about committing facts to memory. What year was Napoleon born etc. This is what's needed to get into the top universities and the powers that be know it's a problem.
Chinese students learn nothing of teamwork and organisation really, each too polite and too scared to take any authority in the real world. A chap I spoke to had gone over there to teach several subject through film making just to give the students roles and responsibilities upfront and "nudge" them to interact.
They are incredibly knowledgeable students as a result, and schools can run all day every day (no 6 week hols etc), but it's total brain overload really. Many are still into their 20's just learning how to write all of their traditional chinese symbols.
Too much of one style and nothing of the other, but I hear it's changing for the better, especially as more people travel around the world and educational systems inevitably undergo some "cross pollination".
Well, thanks, you just prevented me from ever getting a college education.
Cruel? Maybe, but if you can clear the bar, great, if you can't, at least you were given the chance.
For some, probably not. In my case, it's what saved me- my 10th grade math teacher let me go off with textbooks and gave me exams when I was ready rather than making me attend classes, do regular assignments, and all the other standard rubbish. I finished three years of high school math in 6 months. Then they decided that the program didn't work for everyone, put me back in a traditional class, and within weeks I was failing. A few more weeks and I was "asked" not to return to school.
One size does not fit all. Since the self-paced method is not labor-intensive, it carries almost zero marginal cost to implement for those who benefit from it. The major opposition is from unions and administrators whose funding depends on the number of butts in classroom seats.
Zero attrition is both unlikely and undesirable. Peoples have different ways of approaching their personal ceiling. I had a school friend who was also my rival in maths and physics. I could beat him in maths, but he was slightly ahead of me in physics and got a slightly better A-level grade. We both went to university to do physics. He dropped out at the end of the first year, having reached his ceiling. I continued on to get a First and then do research.
To put it crudely, he could understand 100% of the simpler stuff but 0% of the advanced stuff. I could understand 90% of the simpler stuff and 70% of the advanced stuff. It was right for him to attempt university. It was right for the university to say goodbye to him.
To put it crudely, he could understand 100% of the simpler stuff but 0% of the advanced stuff. I could understand 90% of the simpler stuff and 70% of the advanced stuff. It was right for him to attempt university. It was right for the university to say goodbye to him.
"tracking" in elementary school, onwards can be bad - bright students can be bored, "disruptive" and shunted away from a decent chance
or interests, motivations can change - or just be in different categories
Einstein was rejected by the Swiss Federal Polytechnic School on the basis of his test scores
or interests, motivations can change - or just be in different categories
Einstein was rejected by the Swiss Federal Polytechnic School on the basis of his test scores
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Yes.
Much better to check at each stage how people are doing, and whether they can proceed to the next stage. It should be much more common for people to leave university partway, with a certificate or diploma noting what they have achieved. That saves wasting their time and money, and dumbing down classes so everyone can pass.
Much better to check at each stage how people are doing, and whether they can proceed to the next stage. It should be much more common for people to leave university partway, with a certificate or diploma noting what they have achieved. That saves wasting their time and money, and dumbing down classes so everyone can pass.
I was referring to the earlier expansion of the Wilson "white heat" era. That was very different, because A-levels remained the standard entrance requirement for University. The difference now is the thoroughly corrupted GNVQ stuff, and the blurring of the distinction between rubbish FE and half-decent HE.
That's encouraging. A bit tough, but going in the right direction. My son teaches in Japan, which has lapsed into atrophy. They are unlikely to learn from China, unfortunately.
Are there Party schools for the purpose of learning about organisation and teamwork? They seem to me to be the most organised civilisation on earth, so it's odd if that's missing from education altogether.
China will have to find a better way of mapping modern knowledge to their own form of language, or vice-versa, perhaps? Their conscious identities must be split into two domains
. Japan went with the idea of using all scripts for everything. I guess they hoped that they could then eventually drop the old wiggly stuff. I gather Chinese is far more tonal than most languages, which seems to me to make the problem far more challenging.
American high schools are a funny mixture of good and bad.
One the one hand they allow bright students to advance to higher grades, and slow students to be held back. That makes sense.
In Britian you are usually stuck in the same year group no matter your ability. Apparently what matters in the class room is that you're all the same age?! I find this a truly bizarre attitude.
But in America they don't have any compulsory qualifications until the age of 18, so it is entirely possible for a student to drop out during the last year and leave with nothing! At least in Britian we force everyone to get some qualifications and 16, and then more at 18 if they want to.
Also in America they don't specialise early enough. They're forced to do a slew of subjects right up until 18. As a result, they're about 1 year behind British students in terms of depth of knowledge in their main subject when they enter university. AND they have to take pointless extra credit modules and major/minor subjects. No wonder it takes them 4 years to do a degree.
When I watch films set in American high schools I cringe at the thought of being forced to do phisical education at the age of 18 (adult), and in mixed ability groups too! No wonder they have so many school shootings.
Well, thanks, you just prevented me from ever getting a college education.
Cruel? Maybe, but if you can clear the bar, great, if you can't, at least you were given the chance.
You make a good point, but acceptance standards shouldn't rely only on qualifications, and particularly not when they can't be trusted one way or the other.
My interdisciplinary engineering degree course at Bradford...one of the Wilson, socialist-inspired universities...accepted students on any evidence of an ability to make progress in life. Although I had good A levels I would have got in anyway on evidence of progress in industrial employment. The course was ramped at the beginning, with extra provision for bringing everyone to a common point. Very few dropped out or failed, the degree was on a par with others, and was particularly highly regarded by industrial employers.
In common with the original vision of British BTEC courses, it was understood that brains are pretty much the same inside, and any one of them can be developed to the same level. Failure is always the fault of the course, not the students.
It didn't take long for the BTEC model to become totally corrupt in the hands of useless FE colleges. Sadly the university was purged and forced into line with the rest of HE.
OK, I'm in front of you, Mr. Admissions Person. Expelled from high school, no diploma. Grades in high school were at best mediocre, at worst awful. I'm 19 and my work history since school is playing in a band and selling aluminum siding door to door. I managed to avoid the draft.
Are you admitting me? Do you see evidence that I'm going to "make progress in life"? If so, what is it?
Are you admitting me? Do you see evidence that I'm going to "make progress in life"? If so, what is it?
I can talk for the then Professor. He will overrule the doubts of whinging admissions staff and welcome you gleefully as just the kind of candidate to prove his point. Getting expelled from school is the main attraction. Evidence of accomplished self-motivation (the band), and tough employment experience, together with an open verdict on the outcome of school, justifies the choice in formal terms to satisfy the board. Your story appears to be making progress. If you're up for a 4-year course including 2, half-year periods in industry, he'll be more than happy to push your case through, and woe betide anyone who subsequently fails to enable your progress.
You risk him ripping off your thesis and disappearing to an enemy state, leaving you at the mercy of the bitter reactionaries who say you can't succeed. C'est la vie. By then you'll have momentum.
A candidate for undergraduate work in the US, including my alma mater, will never see a professor. Nor can the professor have any influence on admissions decisions, these are handled by "professionals." There are specific standards and the candidate either has them or doesn't; in my case (diploma, grade point average, recommendations, all of which were missing or negative), not a chance anymore. And that's understandable- top universities are overwhelmed by applications, and they can't possibly take the time to consider people as individuals (if they did, they would likely spend most of their working hours in litigation).
Sorry, I prefer the old way. Anyone can try, but failure or success is up to the individual. We had 2000 students in the first semester of the four semester chemistry sequence. By the fourth semester, we were down to 80. But we were given a first-rate education, the standards were rigorous, and people who made it through had no problems securing admission to first rank graduate and professional schools.
Sorry, I prefer the old way. Anyone can try, but failure or success is up to the individual. We had 2000 students in the first semester of the four semester chemistry sequence. By the fourth semester, we were down to 80. But we were given a first-rate education, the standards were rigorous, and people who made it through had no problems securing admission to first rank graduate and professional schools.
There is far more to it than that. Look up Sudbury schools and find out for yourself if you are interested. Also, Summerhill is still going strong 80 years or more now.
Unless you have met graduates of a Sudbury school yourself, you can't understand that they are far more mature than anyone indoctrinated in a public school. I have been studying this for well over a year now.
This is also not true. Experience in the original Sudbury school is far different from this. The school is run on a participatory democracy, for example, and in fact there is a law book and a judiciary system. As I said, unless you have studied this in detail, you don't know.
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The Sudbury school is the most American school possible.
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