Hi All
First post okay so I'll admit it I don't really know what I'm doing but my Mission 702e's don't really do it for me I find them to bright so I thought so you like woodwork make some!
So on looking I see some "Transmission Line" speakers and they seem to have a good write-up so that was it into the shed and the Frankenstein Speakers grew no formulas, I used the Mission 6" mids and I had some reed type Infinity tweeters so I tried them after putting them together and clamping the last side on for trial it appears one of the tweeters doesn't work, (note to self TEST FIRST").
So I will put 2 more holes in and fit the original tweeters but do you think that the brightness will come back or will the new cabinet take some of that away, or should I buy some new tweeters and lastly if that is the case what would be a good tweeter to buy?
Buy the way the speaker does sound better that the 702e thank heavens...
First post okay so I'll admit it I don't really know what I'm doing but my Mission 702e's don't really do it for me I find them to bright so I thought so you like woodwork make some!
So on looking I see some "Transmission Line" speakers and they seem to have a good write-up so that was it into the shed and the Frankenstein Speakers grew no formulas, I used the Mission 6" mids and I had some reed type Infinity tweeters so I tried them after putting them together and clamping the last side on for trial it appears one of the tweeters doesn't work, (note to self TEST FIRST").
So I will put 2 more holes in and fit the original tweeters but do you think that the brightness will come back or will the new cabinet take some of that away, or should I buy some new tweeters and lastly if that is the case what would be a good tweeter to buy?
Buy the way the speaker does sound better that the 702e thank heavens...
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A friend of mine has these missions and doesn't think much of them either. 
It's a 100mm tweeter and 150mm woofer IIRC. If it's too bright, you need to attenuate the tweeter probably. But I'd draw the crossover schematic to know what I am doing there. I'd also measure the DC resistance of the bass and tweeter with a multimeter to avoid mistakes.
Changing tweeter is easy enough. Especially since you are not tied to a monacor-like 100mm or less. The world is your oyster.
It's a 100mm tweeter and 150mm woofer IIRC. If it's too bright, you need to attenuate the tweeter probably. But I'd draw the crossover schematic to know what I am doing there. I'd also measure the DC resistance of the bass and tweeter with a multimeter to avoid mistakes.
Changing tweeter is easy enough. Especially since you are not tied to a monacor-like 100mm or less. The world is your oyster.
Why this TL?
Your wood-working skills look to be quite good, but I can't imagine the results you'll get from the TL will be at all good, in addition to the crossover and brightness issues. A TL must be designed for the specific driver in it if you want an optimum result, but it looks like you simply chose an existing TL design to build, which likely is not at all appropriate. That particular line configuration is also fraught with a major deficiency; the driver's placement in the line will likely result in really big dip in the output between 100 and 200 Hz, and because the line is probably way too long for the driver's Fs and Qts, its 1/4-wavelength resonant frequency will be much too low. Also, a line that is neither tapered nor mass-loaded will have other large dips in its response at higher frequencies that cannot be smoothed out adequately without stuffing the life out of the line and causing a larger detriment to the bass response. Finally those angled and rounded corner reflectors provide no improvement whatsoever to the TL's performance and are really a waste of time and effort to use. Why, you ask? Their original intent was to "steer" the sound waves, but the wavelengths of importance are so long that those reflectors and curves aren't even "seen".
I know what I've said is highly negative, but it's not meant to be personal. Many people have made similar mistakes when first getting into TL "design", believing and adhering to really old information that seemed valid or at least logical when it was first created, but which has subsequently been dis-proven. I bought into some of the TL myths, too, when I first started. If you really want to design a proper TL, you need to use design software created for that purpose, plus design the TL for the driver to be used in it.
Paul
Your wood-working skills look to be quite good, but I can't imagine the results you'll get from the TL will be at all good, in addition to the crossover and brightness issues. A TL must be designed for the specific driver in it if you want an optimum result, but it looks like you simply chose an existing TL design to build, which likely is not at all appropriate. That particular line configuration is also fraught with a major deficiency; the driver's placement in the line will likely result in really big dip in the output between 100 and 200 Hz, and because the line is probably way too long for the driver's Fs and Qts, its 1/4-wavelength resonant frequency will be much too low. Also, a line that is neither tapered nor mass-loaded will have other large dips in its response at higher frequencies that cannot be smoothed out adequately without stuffing the life out of the line and causing a larger detriment to the bass response. Finally those angled and rounded corner reflectors provide no improvement whatsoever to the TL's performance and are really a waste of time and effort to use. Why, you ask? Their original intent was to "steer" the sound waves, but the wavelengths of importance are so long that those reflectors and curves aren't even "seen".
I know what I've said is highly negative, but it's not meant to be personal. Many people have made similar mistakes when first getting into TL "design", believing and adhering to really old information that seemed valid or at least logical when it was first created, but which has subsequently been dis-proven. I bought into some of the TL myths, too, when I first started. If you really want to design a proper TL, you need to use design software created for that purpose, plus design the TL for the driver to be used in it.
Paul
Oh I don't know, pkitt. I'm more in the "have a bash" camp...
Lovely joinery!
Worst comes to the worst, you can just overrstuff the line and leave the side panel unglued while you fiddle with stuffing. I agree it's long, but the reflex SS 15W-8530-K00 is a FS 30Hz driver so might vaguely fit a quarter wave length which, IIRC, at 30Hz is 2.5m.
Troels gives you a nice filter here:
Ellam-XT
It fixes the narrow baffle midrange shout problems that affect small drivers.
Lovely joinery!
Worst comes to the worst, you can just overrstuff the line and leave the side panel unglued while you fiddle with stuffing. I agree it's long, but the reflex SS 15W-8530-K00 is a FS 30Hz driver so might vaguely fit a quarter wave length which, IIRC, at 30Hz is 2.5m.
Troels gives you a nice filter here:
Ellam-XT
It fixes the narrow baffle midrange shout problems that affect small drivers.
Well, the OP was planning on using the midwoofer from the original speaker, and that's what I was addressing, not the SS 15W/8530 you're mentioning here. I would never try use an existing TL design with a random driver I happened to have on hand unless I knew beforehand the line's design was at least reasonably appropriate for that driver's T/S values (not just vaguely possible). And, I certainly would not waste my time in building a line unless I had a strong belief it would be appropriate.
Paul
Paul
Thank you Steve and Paul for all the information, Paul you lost me in the first line I'm not a Physicist, I now realise that my speakers are probably all wrong so is there a program that i could use to tell me where to go with my next attempt because working it out on a piece of paper just ain't going to work?
Steve I need to learn alot more about this and I do understand that now reading this forum has opened my eyes to how complicated this is but at least I know I can build speakers now the hard bit starts!
Tonight I opened the speaker up and I've included a quick image of the crossover I could remove it tomorrow if you need a better image but as for changing parts on them I can solder but I have no idea what to change if someone said buy part A and replace part B then I could, I have also added a couple of pics of the speakers I'm going to use...
Thanks again
Lee
Steve I need to learn alot more about this and I do understand that now reading this forum has opened my eyes to how complicated this is but at least I know I can build speakers now the hard bit starts!
Tonight I opened the speaker up and I've included a quick image of the crossover I could remove it tomorrow if you need a better image but as for changing parts on them I can solder but I have no idea what to change if someone said buy part A and replace part B then I could, I have also added a couple of pics of the speakers I'm going to use...
Thanks again
Lee
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I use Martin King's modeling software [http://www.quarter-wave.com/] for all of my TL work, but it's no longer available from Martin. You can at least go to Martin's site and read up on his work in order to gain a better understanding of TL design, and Martin also has a Yahoo group that you can join and learn from. OTOH Leonard Audio out of the UK has developed some TL design software which you could try, and there are other software programs which aren't specific to TLs that have been mentioned on this forum and can be used (up to a point).
If you really want to get into TLs quickly, I and others on this forum can model a design for you once you've chosen a driver and can provide its T/S values (published T/S values can be used instead but may not truly reflect your actual driver).
Paul
If you really want to get into TLs quickly, I and others on this forum can model a design for you once you've chosen a driver and can provide its T/S values (published T/S values can be used instead but may not truly reflect your actual driver).
Paul
As Paul has stated, your chances of success are very low with this approach. Paul has designed more transmission line speakers (for DIY users and commercial users) than anyone I know. I'm sure that Paul would be able to generate an awesome design if you have T/S specs of a driver of your choosing.
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As you can see I'm totally new to all this and as such I now realise my speakers are not really going to work, as for someone else designing for me I think that would be a great idea if Paul had the inclination and or time firstly though I'd like to get some better speakers to make it all worthwhile, I have been reading and it seems three way speakers are a better way to go. If anyone has any recommendations on what size/make speaker cones to buy then I'd be very grateful?
Lee
You can achieve excellent results with either 2-way, 2-driver TLs or 3-way, 3-driver TLs. You need to establish a budget and approximate maximum cabinet size, then choose appropriate drivers. Go to Martin's site and peruse his Design Gallery where you'll see photos of a variety of different TL designs (I think I have at least 6 in it).
Paul
Paul
Thanks for the reference, Jim. While I don't feel like I'm being immodest to say I build decent looking cabinets, I know I've become essentially a "1-trick Pony" from focusing on TL-type enclosures. Heck, I don't even design my own crossovers. Regardless, I really like designing and building TLs and will continue to do so as long as I'm able.
Paul
Paul
I think I may have found a tweeter okay it's a start what do others think, from what I can see they are used in some Meridian speakers?
Products_Fountek Electronics Co.,Ltd
I am struggling to know what speakers to buy I'm thinking maybe a 6.5" mid bass and an 8" woofer... Ahhh! but what makes to buy?
Products_Fountek Electronics Co.,Ltd
I am struggling to know what speakers to buy I'm thinking maybe a 6.5" mid bass and an 8" woofer... Ahhh! but what makes to buy?
An ML-TL for the Hi Vi D8.8
Did some exploratory modeling for the D8.8, both ML-TL and tapered TL. The ML-TL gives the better overall results IMO. What I modeled is a line 60" long with a constant cross-section that's 9.5"W x 6.5"D. The line would be folded in half and fit into an internal cavity height of 30". The line would start at the bottom of the front half of the line, make a U-turn at the top, then go down the back half of the line to finish at the bottom there. The woofer's center would be located 20" above the bottom of the line's front half, and the mass-loading port's center would be located 10" above the bottom of the line's back half. The vertical divider creating the folded line would be 23.5" tall and attached to the bottom. The mass-loading port has a 3" diameter and 4.5" length. The first 38" of the line are filled with polyester fiber at a uniform density of 0.75 lb/ft3, requiring a total of ~15 ounces of fiber. I've attached the predicted system bass response (red line) for an input of 60 watts into 8 ohms, where Xmax is reached at a frequency of ~27 Hz with a peak port air velocity of just under 17 m/s at 31 Hz. Note that this modeled bass response is for an idealized environment without reflections and, also, does not show baffle step losses. The system tuning frequency is ~32 Hz.
Paul
Did some exploratory modeling for the D8.8, both ML-TL and tapered TL. The ML-TL gives the better overall results IMO. What I modeled is a line 60" long with a constant cross-section that's 9.5"W x 6.5"D. The line would be folded in half and fit into an internal cavity height of 30". The line would start at the bottom of the front half of the line, make a U-turn at the top, then go down the back half of the line to finish at the bottom there. The woofer's center would be located 20" above the bottom of the line's front half, and the mass-loading port's center would be located 10" above the bottom of the line's back half. The vertical divider creating the folded line would be 23.5" tall and attached to the bottom. The mass-loading port has a 3" diameter and 4.5" length. The first 38" of the line are filled with polyester fiber at a uniform density of 0.75 lb/ft3, requiring a total of ~15 ounces of fiber. I've attached the predicted system bass response (red line) for an input of 60 watts into 8 ohms, where Xmax is reached at a frequency of ~27 Hz with a peak port air velocity of just under 17 m/s at 31 Hz. Note that this modeled bass response is for an idealized environment without reflections and, also, does not show baffle step losses. The system tuning frequency is ~32 Hz.
Paul
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And 1-ways too!!
Paul, i was thinking exactly the same things when i saw the 1st post (+ that i'd not build a speaker with MDF), but you covered the points more eloquently than i would have.
dave
Hi Paul
Thank you for the reply, I must admit I'm not 100% understanding your information about the speakers but if I was to reproduce this speaker would you recommend I made this as a replacement for my old Mission 702e's also I'm not sure what speaker you are using is it "D8.8" if so what make is that?
Lee
The woofer I modeled the ML-TL for is the Hi Vi D8.8 for which you showed the specs in your post #14 along with specs for two other Hi Vi drivers. I modeled it on the basis it would make a pretty good bottom for a 3-way. If you do want to seriously consider doing a 3-way with this as the woofer, I'd be happy to provide you a cabinet side-view sketch for this TL portion to work from.
I have no way of knowing how your old Mission 702es sound or perform, therefore, am not and cannot make a comparison. The D8.8 looks to have pretty good performance regardless.
Paul
I have no way of knowing how your old Mission 702es sound or perform, therefore, am not and cannot make a comparison. The D8.8 looks to have pretty good performance regardless.
Paul
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You're correct, Dave. One-way TLs can work very well, too. I've only built one pair myself using some CSS125FR drivers I got as door prizes at a DIY event a number of years ago. They sound pretty decent but not for extensive, serious music listening, but they're great along side and with the TV in or master bedroom.
I don't build with MDF anymore simply due to its powder-like dust, preferring baltic birch plywood a lot more.
Paul
I don't build with MDF anymore simply due to its powder-like dust, preferring baltic birch plywood a lot more.
Paul
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