from what I heard it is more an issue of the manufacturer (or EU distributor) having the responsibility for possible recycling of the product containing ferrofluid (as it is for many other products already)... but the burocratic hurdles that might bring could be just as effective as a ban to the smaller brands. but maybe there will be exceptions for smaller comapnies (just as there is for the packaging tax (yes, we have a tax on packaging materials in the EU))
Ted's recommendation is to keep it to sealed box. The box provides the suspension.
As Scott recommends, unless using in multiples, it is best used 200Hz up. It can be run to 120Hz but sounds thin on its own. I'm wondering about using it as a true tweeter, from 2kHz up with a Jordan bass unit. I have an active 2-way system here at the moment which sounds very good indeed but the JXR6 definitely gives its dome tweeter a serious run for its money.
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do you mean that used in multiples (pairs or more) it can be safely used to 120Hz? A friend of mine wanted to use the Jx6 for his living room (more video use than audio use). His idea was to use 4 each for the left, right and center and 2 each for the sides and rears. 20 drivers in all; driven from a Denon 7ch HT/AVR. He was told that even in pairs pushing them below 150Hz is not really advised especially if driven hard. 100/120Hz was only at moderate levels.
Was thinking of pairs but am I right in thinking these are 4 ohm, so maybe a line array of 4 would be better than 2, wired series/parallel
There is so much conflicting info, some people are saying they are very tough and can be used without x/o ...
A metal driver that is well behaved at relatively high volumes, has a decent treble and hits 80hz is the Audience A3 but at $170 each. Then there's a dark horse.. the Dayton nd90 at less than $20!! Lots of very good comments but the sensitivity is quite low.
Hi Bill
Okay, to clear through some of the conflicting info. I've been using a pair of these drivers in my back up system for 18 months now and I've seen and heard Ted's system several times.
A single driver works but there ain't much bass or lower mid. I have a pair on a 30w AV receiver with a sub (I haven't connected rear or centre speakers). The receiver output is on the 'small' speaker setting, so it will be curtailing bass to the speaker. It goes loud and sounds clear but as soon as you hear it alongside a system capable of wider range, you realise it needs a mid-bass unit. And yes, my idea of loud is probably a fairly moderate loud at best. (I think it peaked at 85dB the one time I measured it on opera).
Ted's system is the 4 unit array, which he says is the ideal way to use them. He is using an 80-100 amplifier (rather than an AV receiver) so they receive the full bandwidth signal. Bass is handled by a pair of MJ Acoustics subs, similar to the ones currently mentioned on his site.
Ted's system goes loud and sounds very good indeed. The arrays are wall mounted and that, combined with the bass/mid gain from running four units, gives them the body and weight the sound needs. (I've also heard them off wall, in a VTL-size sealed box and they sounded good and weighty too). Used with an AV receiver and subs, they will be fine run full bandwidth and even better if the speaker set up on the receiver is put to 'small'.
I can't comment so well on the rear units as I'm not sure how AV receivers handle them - do they still filter off the bass and rely on the sub? If so, they should be ok, given that most of the important audio is coming from the front speakers.
There are always cheaper speakers around but bear in mind that even in an array, you're limited by how good the individual speaker is. If it has response peaks or other drawbacks, you're likely to hear them unless you do some clever filtering - which probably negates the saving in using cheaper units in the first place.
Okay, to clear through some of the conflicting info. I've been using a pair of these drivers in my back up system for 18 months now and I've seen and heard Ted's system several times.
A single driver works but there ain't much bass or lower mid. I have a pair on a 30w AV receiver with a sub (I haven't connected rear or centre speakers). The receiver output is on the 'small' speaker setting, so it will be curtailing bass to the speaker. It goes loud and sounds clear but as soon as you hear it alongside a system capable of wider range, you realise it needs a mid-bass unit. And yes, my idea of loud is probably a fairly moderate loud at best. (I think it peaked at 85dB the one time I measured it on opera).
Ted's system is the 4 unit array, which he says is the ideal way to use them. He is using an 80-100 amplifier (rather than an AV receiver) so they receive the full bandwidth signal. Bass is handled by a pair of MJ Acoustics subs, similar to the ones currently mentioned on his site.
Ted's system goes loud and sounds very good indeed. The arrays are wall mounted and that, combined with the bass/mid gain from running four units, gives them the body and weight the sound needs. (I've also heard them off wall, in a VTL-size sealed box and they sounded good and weighty too). Used with an AV receiver and subs, they will be fine run full bandwidth and even better if the speaker set up on the receiver is put to 'small'.
I can't comment so well on the rear units as I'm not sure how AV receivers handle them - do they still filter off the bass and rely on the sub? If so, they should be ok, given that most of the important audio is coming from the front speakers.
There are always cheaper speakers around but bear in mind that even in an array, you're limited by how good the individual speaker is. If it has response peaks or other drawbacks, you're likely to hear them unless you do some clever filtering - which probably negates the saving in using cheaper units in the first place.
So Jordan uses bass to augment the output of 4 Jx6. Any idea how low he cross the subwoofer over?
i like this suggestion. the AL130s are good drivers with a decent bass response in a reasonable volume, especially in a vented box, and certainly a smaller volume than the jordan bass drivers. I was astounded at the depth of bass in my misaligned vented test box for these, and even more surprised of the bass response in the same 15litre box in sealed configuration, which belied the Vb of less than 0.7. They have a lack of low order harmonic distortion which i was unaccustomed to from drivers this size(audax paper, HDA, and carbon drivers.) my personal fave partner for them would be the alpair5/6, although i have not tried them yet! i would imagine something like a TIW200/250 CRP coned sub would be even better from a wider BW, higher volume perspective, although i have run the AL130s with a single driver in oversized sealed box at 20W roughly and nearly at Xmax(almost 16mm p-p) with very minimal suspension noise, and no real degradation in midrange quality. thats another thing that surprised me!
Thought I would just add a bit of practical advice here... I put together a pair of 4 X JXR6-HD arrays in a PE 0.38 Cu. Ft. aperiodic box. They are mated with a a NAD L73 HT amp and a sub. Yes they sound very nice and four can play at quite a high level.
BUT running them with a full spectrum input is not desireable or adviseable, especially if you have them in a relatively large box (6L) per driver. They will play quite easily down to 120Hz and below, but the cone travel is not so desireable and if you get careless with the volume control or a very loud passage comes along you can damage them.
My NAD and many other HT setups solve this problem by allowing you to set the "Speaker Size". Large/Small/Mini in my case. What this does is to roll off the low end. Mine on "Small" cuts it at around 120Hz according to what I measured. That is perfect for my 4 driver array.
I also have a Moon Dog Audio JX53 4 driver array tower. The newer model JXR6 HD can go much lower and is much nicer on the mid to high range. But just because you can doesn't mean that you want too!
Ported is not recommended as you are not providing the additional suspension that the driver wants and you are obviously go to put more lows in it. Initially a ported design reduces cone travel, but then it returns as you go lower. So not a good aproach in general.
Mark
Mark
BUT running them with a full spectrum input is not desireable or adviseable, especially if you have them in a relatively large box (6L) per driver. They will play quite easily down to 120Hz and below, but the cone travel is not so desireable and if you get careless with the volume control or a very loud passage comes along you can damage them.
My NAD and many other HT setups solve this problem by allowing you to set the "Speaker Size". Large/Small/Mini in my case. What this does is to roll off the low end. Mine on "Small" cuts it at around 120Hz according to what I measured. That is perfect for my 4 driver array.
I also have a Moon Dog Audio JX53 4 driver array tower. The newer model JXR6 HD can go much lower and is much nicer on the mid to high range. But just because you can doesn't mean that you want too!
Ported is not recommended as you are not providing the additional suspension that the driver wants and you are obviously go to put more lows in it. Initially a ported design reduces cone travel, but then it returns as you go lower. So not a good aproach in general.
Mark
Mark
So even a 4 driver array should not be pushed below 120Hz. I guess a 2 driver array would need to crossed over higher (if fed with the same power).
For surround speakers however a 2 driver array might be adequate given that surround speakers are not usually asked to deliver the same SPLs as the front 3 speakers. right?
No, one does not necessarily scale by the number of drivers. Two can be crossed at the same level and just note the playback level. If each handles the same amount of power at a safe maximum drive then the resultant SPL just goes down.
So, going from 4 to 2 would result in a 6dB lower maximum SPL.
So, going from 4 to 2 would result in a 6dB lower maximum SPL.
The JXR6 drivers are sensitive to what is driving them and the very best is most warranted.
I have built 16 liter enclosures for 4 drivers per side driven with Kara Engineering/ Dehaviland 50a 40 watt amps using no crossovers. The bass drivers are crossed over at 150Hz and are Jan Plummer designed 6 inch TBI subs with their own amps. The combination can provide high SPL if needed and are indeed full frequency response reproducers. They must be placed close to the wall and precisely placed at equal distance from the side walls. The listener may sit anywhere and experience a precise stage presentation with a depth of field unsurpassed by most loudspeakers i have been able to experience in this 8ft by 16ft by 20 foot enviroment.
I have built 16 liter enclosures for 4 drivers per side driven with Kara Engineering/ Dehaviland 50a 40 watt amps using no crossovers. The bass drivers are crossed over at 150Hz and are Jan Plummer designed 6 inch TBI subs with their own amps. The combination can provide high SPL if needed and are indeed full frequency response reproducers. They must be placed close to the wall and precisely placed at equal distance from the side walls. The listener may sit anywhere and experience a precise stage presentation with a depth of field unsurpassed by most loudspeakers i have been able to experience in this 8ft by 16ft by 20 foot enviroment.
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The JXR6 is really a system speaker, not intended to be used on its own. As I've played around more with it, I've found the higher it crosses over, the better. There's a design on the jordan-usa site which crosses to the Jordan bass at 500Hz, using a 2nd order crossover, which is probably about right for a single driver. I've yet to try an array of 4 drivers in my system.
The new EAD bass drivers seem to require a pretty big box, so the AL130 mentioned earlier is a good fit. I've tried the JXR6 with the JX92S as bass and that's nice. Using the Hypex plate amps and crossing at 750Hz or so would make a nice active system, using something like Jim Griffin's 7L enclosure for the 92. The distance between the two drivers is probably too large with the MLTLs, unless the line is folded in some way.
WRT the JXR6 design, I wouldn't underestimate the amount Ted brought to the design and his development of his drivers as a system. Most of the work predates involvement with Mark.
The new EAD bass drivers seem to require a pretty big box, so the AL130 mentioned earlier is a good fit. I've tried the JXR6 with the JX92S as bass and that's nice. Using the Hypex plate amps and crossing at 750Hz or so would make a nice active system, using something like Jim Griffin's 7L enclosure for the 92. The distance between the two drivers is probably too large with the MLTLs, unless the line is folded in some way.
WRT the JXR6 design, I wouldn't underestimate the amount Ted brought to the design and his development of his drivers as a system. Most of the work predates involvement with Mark.
Right, 500Hz is usually a good XO point from the POV of power handling, plus it preserves much of the midband sands filters.
I doubt anyone would underestimate Ted (& they'd do so at their peril) -he's without doubt one of the great driver designers. AFAIK re the JXR6 though, it was Mark who did the spadework on the engineering to get the nuts & bolts achieving what Ted wanted.
I doubt anyone would underestimate Ted (& they'd do so at their peril) -he's without doubt one of the great driver designers. AFAIK re the JXR6 though, it was Mark who did the spadework on the engineering to get the nuts & bolts achieving what Ted wanted.
I don't want to take sides (Jordan/Alpair) - I think a 7cm jordan would be a very welcome addition. Mark did a great job on the JXR6, which reminds me there is another chap who deserves a mention - Patrick Handscombe. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he helped develop a predecessor to the JXR6 in the mid 90s which may have been spiderless. The guy was/is a genius anyhow.
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I believe so (IIRC, that'd be the JX53 if we're talking ferrofluid suspension). Like most things, the vast majority of drivers are a collective effort by necessity, either in design, engineering, productionising or whatever, so hats off to all involved.
No sides here, the market is large enough to accomodate both (and most others for that matter). A new Jordan unit would be welcome, although I haven't heard about any such unit in the pipeline at present.
No sides here, the market is large enough to accomodate both (and most others for that matter). A new Jordan unit would be welcome, although I haven't heard about any such unit in the pipeline at present.
My memory isnt great but I think just after Patrick designed the Electrofluidics Sonolith he re engineered the small drivers - instead of a dust cap they had a neat little pole piece with a 'button' type end. This must have been in the early to mid 90s- and I am sure I remember him saying they had no suspension.
Those Sonolith speakers were way ahead of their time and cost a fortune to tool up (nowadays tooling cast cabs wd be a fraction of what it was back then). They remain the best speakers I ever heard.
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