Andre Visser said:
I had in mind something a little more rigorous, but I understand the difficulty. But what I would be interested in is any reports from anywhere about specific effects with specific amps as far as imaging is concerned. It would seem logical that after all these years there should be a body of opinion about the imaging capabilities of some amps. And if the effects reported are due to the amps then the reports should all correspond, otherwise I feel it is resonable to conclude that the reportees are mistaken.
janneman said:
As you know I am no expert on methodologies. My idea is to remove the often raised objections to DBTs. It is designed to be friendly to the audiophile as they are told what to listen for. If they can't do better than chance it means that the guy who originally decided that the DUT had a certain quality is just wrong. If they can agree above chance then there is something worth investigating.
Jan, after long search and many trials I've returned back to ML panels. I got perfect 3d-image in the semispace limited by the speakers’ vertical plane and behind. 3d-image is stable and doesn't change with volume. But when I changed the amp from Parasound to KT88 the image jumped ahead from the speakers’ vertical plane with the same depth behind. My spouse, kids and even cat noticed this. Can you explain this?
janneman said:
Yes it is biased I want people to hear a difference then choose, if they imagine the difference it seems unlikely that they would all agree on which was which, so if they all do agree they must be actually hearing something real.
I can see one problem though and that is if they see the two amps and one looks more high end than the other. It could be two identical amps but one modified as Andre did which he says affects the imaging.
dimitri said:
No I can't explain it. Some factors could be the already mentioned xtalk, also via the power supply. There may also be some differences in freq response due to differences in damping factor versus frequency. But I don't really know.
BTW I'm using ML Sequel II's. You?
Jan Didden
fredex said:
I think you're missing something here.
Of such a group, only one person has to point at, say cable "A", and say, "this cable is better".
After that, the brain will take care of messing up the whole thing, as it will go to great length to not disappoint the "owner".
In this case, the brain will surely make up for the lack of difference, to make sure the test person won't have to accept, that he could not hear any difference, and be disappointed.
The result will be that whenever cable "A" is installed, everybody will nod, and say "yeah, "A" is definitely better". Mind you that they will believe they heard a difference.
So, we have a hand-full of happy brain-owners, and a result, right?
Magura
Magura said:
I think you're missing something here.
Of such a group, only one person has to point at, say cable "A", and say, "this cable is better".
After that, the brain will take care of messing up the whole thing, as it will go to great length to not disappoint the "owner".
In this case, the brain will surely make up for the lack of difference, to make sure the test person won't have to accept, that he could not hear any difference, and be disappointed.
The result will be that whenever cable "A" is installed, everybody will nod, and say "yeah, "A" is definitely better". Mind you that they will believe they heard a difference.
So, we have a hand-full of happy brain-owners, and a result, right?
Magura
Good point and I think that if you used only cable A in the test but said that you changed to cable B, but didn’t change the cable, only using cable A. The person with the “Golden Ear” would always claim that he heard a difference.
Stinius
Magura said:
I think you're missing something here.
Of such a group, only one person has to point at, say cable "A", and say, "this cable is better".
After that, the brain will take care of messing up the whole thing, as it will go to great length to not disappoint the "owner".
In this case, the brain will surely make up for the lack of difference, to make sure the test person won't have to accept, that he could not hear any difference, and be disappointed.
The result will be that whenever cable "A" is installed, everybody will nod, and say "yeah, "A" is definitely better". Mind you that they will believe they heard a difference.
So, we have a hand-full of happy brain-owners, and a result, right?
Magura
Bingo! Group theory 101.
Jan Didden
Joshua_G said:
It's probably a compromise between ideal testing and practical duration. I have read about DBT's where the subjects were given the control and they could switch as often and listen as long (within reason of course) as they wanted.
What is a practical limit? In my experience, I hear differences (real or imagined
) withing the first few minutes. If I listen longer, it gets more difficult to try to keep the old and new in my mind and compare them.Jan Didden
janneman said:
The test assumes that there is a difference and seeks to confirm it.
If a participant can't hear a difference they would be excluded as they won't be able to make the choice that the test asks them to make.
So hopefully we are left with a group of people who 'claim' to hear the effect (defocussed imaging) and all they have to do is indicate which amp has it.
If as you suggest there is no actual difference the choices made should be random and the test's assumption is wrong.
If the choices are not random then the test's assumption is correct.
Of course this test relies on my assumption that if people are imagining something they won't all imagine the same thing if they are tested in isolation from one another. If I am wrong in this, then it is as you say useless.
Jan
I think you can repeat yourself every minute the rest of your life in this thread, and the leader and his “groupies” will never ever agree with you. (Engineers are too educated to understand what good sound and the “art” is all about)
If you tell them that 2+2=4 they will say NO, NO way, we don’t believe in engineering and math They will have to listen and do some obscure tests and most of them will end up with 3.5 or 4.5.
So instead of spoiling your time at this thread why don’t you just join the Onsemi ThermalTrak thread with Bob Cordell, Douglas Self, me and a lot of other engineers?
Your contribution at that thread would be much appreciated.
That said, somebody (I think it way Bonsai) asked if this thread could be moved to the “Everything Else” Forum. My opinion is that it should be in the SS Forum, but maybe it should be at a permanent off topic thread (as they have in the Pass Forum).
Stinius
I think you can repeat yourself every minute the rest of your life in this thread, and the leader and his “groupies” will never ever agree with you. (Engineers are too educated to understand what good sound and the “art” is all about)
If you tell them that 2+2=4 they will say NO, NO way, we don’t believe in engineering and math They will have to listen and do some obscure tests and most of them will end up with 3.5 or 4.5.
So instead of spoiling your time at this thread why don’t you just join the Onsemi ThermalTrak thread with Bob Cordell, Douglas Self, me and a lot of other engineers?
Your contribution at that thread would be much appreciated.
That said, somebody (I think it way Bonsai) asked if this thread could be moved to the “Everything Else” Forum. My opinion is that it should be in the SS Forum, but maybe it should be at a permanent off topic thread (as they have in the Pass Forum).
Stinius
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